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04:51 < waxwing> so would it be fair to say that this: H = to_point(SHA256(ENCODE(G))) is basically functioning as a NUMS ?
04:58 < sipa> yes
04:58 < sipa> any nums used as X ciordinate would do
04:59 < waxwing> or maybe satoshi deliberately chose secp256k1 and sha256 for this purpose :))
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05:58 < nsh> NUMS?
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06:01 < waxwing> nsh: nothing up my sleeve number
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06:04 < nsh> ah, right
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10:34 < waxwing> "In this scheme, rather than having kG = sG + exG" <-- from 2.2 of borromean paper, shouldn't that be minus?
10:34 < andytoshi> waxwing: they are equivalent
10:34 < andytoshi> only rule is that it should be consistent through the whole paper..
10:34 < waxwing> :)
10:35 < andytoshi> damn, i think that paragraph is inconsistent with the rest of the paper tho :/
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10:36 < waxwing> the hobgoblin of little minds
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10:40 < andytoshi> thx for reading so carefully, i fixed it locally, it will appear in the next public push
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11:36 < kanzure> http://blog.silentsignal.eu/2015/06/10/poisonous-md5-wolves-among-the-sheep/
11:37 < kanzure> https://securelist.com/files/2015/06/The_Mystery_of_Duqu_2_0_a_sophisticated_cyberespionage_actor_returns.pdf
11:38 < narwh4l> "mystery:
11:38 < narwh4l> Duqu is definitely NSA, I think it was mentioned in one of the public docs
11:39 < narwh4l> Anyway, ruskies will always be decent hackers and I'm glad Kaspersky is around
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13:15 < shen_noe> gmaxwell, how does your to_point function work? https://people.xiph.org/~greg/confidential_values.txt
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13:16 < sipa> shen_noe: interpret the argument as serialized X coordinate, compute the corresponding even Y coordinate to make it lie on the curve, and return the resulting point
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13:18 < shen_noe> ahh, ok that makes more sense than to_point = take an integer and multiply it by the basepoint
13:18 < shen_noe> lol
13:20 < gmaxwell> I updated the text file to clarify this.
13:22 < shen_noe> thanks, it was probably clear enough I was just thinking different ways to get H from a hash
13:23 < gmaxwell> shen_noe: you're the second person who'd raised the concern, in fact.  and the xG approach is the one thing that you cannot do or it totally breaks the security of the scheme. :)
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13:49 < wallet42> sipa: does every X has a Y in the curve order?
13:50 < sipa> no, 1 in 2
13:50 < sipa> because every point has a negation which has the same X but opposite Y
13:50 < sipa> and there are around 2^256 coordinates and around 2^256 points
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14:07 < shen_noe> if I combine ct and coinjoin / coinswap in one transaction, does each input need its own ring sig to obscure the amount?
14:08 < sipa> ring signatures are not used to obscure the amounts; pedersen commitments are used for that
14:08 < sipa> the ring signatures are used internally in the range proof of each output, to prove that the value is not negative
14:08 < sipa> this is independent of coinjoin or anything; every confidential output needs a range proof
14:10 < shen_noe> so one output = one ring sig?
14:11 < sipa> there is one ring singature per *bit* in the range proof
14:11 < sipa> so there are typically 32 per confidential output
14:11 < sipa> though all ring signatures are combined as a single borromean ring signature
14:12 < shen_noe> sipa thanks for the explanation
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14:21 < shen_noe> ahh... what I meant about each input in the coinjoin,  actually was thinking of something like a darkcoin setup where coinjoin is accomplished roughly by sending your coins to a masternode, and then getting them back, so transaction sent to the masternode would have one ring sig
14:22 < sipa> shen_noe: the *outputs* have ring sigs, not the transactions
14:22 < sipa> coinjoin just combines multiple outputs and inputs from different participants
14:23 < sipa> everyone just create their inputs and outputs (with blinded values and range proofs), and then they get combined, and then everyone signs off on the resulting combined transactions
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14:24 < shen_noe> output is part of the transaction no? I was thinking of a scenario where coins are periodically mixed
14:25 < sipa> yes
14:25 < sipa> the scenario doesn't matter
14:26 < sipa> you have a bunch of people who create non-signed transactions, each with inputs and outputs
14:26 < sipa> coinjoin creates a joint non-signed transactions with all inputs from everyone and all outputs from everyone
14:26 < shen_noe> well, it kind of does, how many coinjoins transactions do I have to do to be anonymous
14:26 < sipa> then everyone signs off on the results
14:27 < sipa> i think you're confused
14:27 < shen_noe> say I have to do 1 coinjoin every 24 hours
14:28 < sipa> in the outputs of the to-be-coinjoined-transactions you create, you already have range proogs
14:28 < sipa> coinjoin does not touch them
14:28 < sipa> the whole question is orthogonal to coinjoin
14:29 < sipa> does every participant need its own ring rig? yes, and even one per bit of the range proof in each of the outputs created by each of the participants
14:31 < shen_noe> right, I get that it's orthogonal to coinjoin.. I'm just wondering for example, if I implement ct in dash/dark and my coins are periodically sent to a masternode.. now ct adds a bit of space, and all these mixing transactions now each have a ring sig
14:32 < sipa> the size is 2.5 kilobytes per output
14:32 < sipa> doesn't matter whether those outputs are touched by coinjoin or not
14:34 < shen_noe> so e.g. 2 to 8 rounds of mixing times 2.5 kb per each mix
14:34 < shen_noe> accumulated blockchain size is 2 to 8 x 2.5 kb?
14:35 < sipa> i think you're confused
14:36 < shen_noe> possibly
14:36  * shen_noe goes to read more
14:36 < sipa> coinjoin does not create transactions
14:36 < sipa> maybe you have some higher level mixing on top
14:36 < sipa> coinjoin just joins multiple transactions together to obscure which inputs and outputs are related
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14:37 < shen_noe> yes, that's what I'm thinking of ofc coinjoin does not creeate transactions
14:37 < shen_noe> mixing on top is what I mean here
14:37 < sipa> then do your homework :)
14:37 < shen_noe> (since that's where I've seen coinjoin in the wild)
14:38 < sipa> confidential transactions have 2.5 kilobyte per output, regardless of where that output came from
14:38 < shen_noe> yep.
14:38 < shen_noe> so know, let's suppose I implement a privacy coin
14:39 < shen_noe> ofc I could let people manually coinjoin
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14:39 < shen_noe> but that might be inconvenient for them
14:39 < shen_noe> so now I do masternodes or whatever, mixing on top (accomplished via some coinjoin's / coinswaps whatever)
14:40 < shen_noe> now each mix the masternodes do has 2.5 kb per output
14:40 < sipa> no time for this now, sorry
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14:40 < shen_noe> thx for discussion
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14:50 < gmaxwell> 14:12 < sipa> there is one ring singature per *bit* in the range proof
14:50 < gmaxwell> well technically one ring per pair of bits. :)
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15:53 < andytoshi> shen_noe: i can take over from sipa if you have more questions, tho i don't have a lot of time..
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15:54 < andytoshi> oh, never mind, i hadn't read to the bottom :) no darkcoin stuff please, check out https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/a/29473 for discussion of anonymity tech
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