--- Log opened Fri Jun 19 00:00:46 2015
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00:06 < jgarzik> fluffypony, moa: Q3 2016 for Dunvegan Space's satellites w/ blockchain on board...
00:06 < phantomcircuit> jgarzik, er how much bandwidth does that have?
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00:08 < jgarzik> phantomcircuit, 1 Mb/s - not a comm satellite, more a server in space -   http://dunveganspace.com/assets/bitsat-infosheet.pdf
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00:15 < fluffypony> jgarzik: nice
00:16 < fluffypony> moa: I know, I was thinking more about Elon Musk's thing
00:16 < jgarzik> If you think you have a customer use case, let us know!   jgarzik@dss.co     This far in advance of launch, we are lining up people interested in storing data or running apps on the satellites.
00:16 < jgarzik> Run fun stuff on there like bitcoin oracles
00:16 < phantomcircuit> jgarzik, 1Mb/s theoretical or actual?
00:17 < jgarzik> phantomcircuit, 1 Mb/s theoretical max
00:17 < fluffypony> jgarzik: can it do two-way, or one-way only?
00:17 < jgarzik> 2 way
00:17 < phantomcircuit> jgarzik, any idea what actual will be one way?
00:17 < jgarzik> actually more than 2-way since we have inter-satellite relay
00:17 < jgarzik> in addition to ground<->sat
00:17 < jgarzik> phantomcircuit, close to that based on bench tests
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00:19 < moa> jgarzik: any limits on apps that can be run on your sats?
00:19 < moa> physically, legally
00:19 < jgarzik> moa: whatever the sat can run & doesn't get me arrested ;p
00:20  * fluffypony reckons moa is designing porn-o-lites
00:20 < moa> jurisdictional arbitrage gets interesting in space
00:20 < jgarzik> our net can do worldwide broadcasting, once all 24 are up
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10:53 < jgarzik> Anything overly nerd-y going on in SF this weekend?  I'm around with - shocker - no meetings or calls
10:54 < jgarzik> maybe I'll go see Ex Machina
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11:09 < hearn> jgarzik: it's good
11:09 < hearn> jgarzik: if you like cerebral sci fi
11:10 < hearn> jgarzik: the google analogies are a bit too direct imo but other than that it's quite engaging :)
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14:39 < leakypat> jgarzik: what is the status of bip100 ? Is it officially a bip now?
14:40 < jgarzik> leakypat, BIP draft coming in a few days
14:40 < jgarzik> leakypat, It's officially a BIP when it's in the BIP drafts repo
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15:10 < leakypat> jgarzik: great, thanks
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18:09 < maaku> jgarzik: did you request an official bip number, as per bip 1?
18:11 < warren> jgarzik: how long are you in SF?
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19:49 < bramc> Hey everybody
19:51 < merlincorey> hai doctor bramcnick
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20:07 < kanzure> merlincorey: not sure others will recognize that
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20:14 < bramc> merlincorey, I don't get the reference
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20:19 < kanzure> i'm also not sure it applies here, heh
20:20 < merlincorey> bramc: it's a simpson's reference
20:21 < merlincorey> kanzure: the simpsons (and futurama) writers are composed in large part of actual mathematicians
20:21 < merlincorey> kanzure: so in an oblique way, it does
20:21 < kanzure> yeah but i don't think bram has any malpractice insurance issues
20:21 < merlincorey> let's hope not
20:21 < merlincorey> but we don't have any way of knowing :P
20:22 < bramc> Of course not. I always make sure to perform surgery with sharp knives.
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21:07 < jgarzik> warren, all week
21:09 < warren> jgarzik: when do you depart?  I arrive June 22nd
21:10 < jgarzik> warren, June 27
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21:11 < warren> i'm in SF June 23rd - 25th, want to meet up?
21:11 < bramc> I'm in SF all the time
21:13 < jgarzik> warren, Possibly :)  My week is full of meetings - Tentatively yes, but I have to prioritize NASA folks etc.
21:14 < kanzure> what has nasa ever done for us
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21:17 < warren> NASA?
21:17 < warren> Bitcoin to the moon ... literally
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21:18 < warren> really bad block propagation latency
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21:24 < jgarzik> warren, Low Earth Orbit :)
21:25 < jgarzik> ...unless you know some customers who want to get to the moon...
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21:28 < warren> jgarzik: a 2 way peg sidechain might be better for mooncoin ...
21:28 < jgarzik> too much settlement latency
21:28 < warren> atomic swaps
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22:36 < bramc> warren, Maybe we'll get those block propagation times long before then with a hard fork of the block size
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22:45 < CodeShark> has anyone build zk-SNARKS over LWE or some other quantum-resistant scheme (not based in pair-based crypto)?
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22:51 < CodeShark> nobody?!?! seriously? I'm disappointed
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22:52 < gmaxwell> I think noise buildup problems would be a serious concern there, as the depth of the computation for pratical issues are quite deep.
22:53 < gmaxwell> other kinds of ZKP based on fiat shamir and linear codes should be quantum strong; but no really feasable ones have been constructed yet.
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22:54 < CodeShark> couldn't the noise issues be handled at the cost of space or time complexity?
22:56 < CodeShark> doesn't fully homomorphic crypto imply zkp?
22:57 < gmaxwell> ZKP requires much less than ZKP.
22:57 < CodeShark> zkp does not require fully homomorphic crypto
22:57 < gmaxwell> er right.
22:57 < gmaxwell> I wasn't saying it couldn't be done, just that it may not be anywhere near as efficient as even the linear code based schemes.
22:58 < gmaxwell> Anyways, perhaps email Craig Gentry; since he's worked on all of these things.
22:58 < CodeShark> google search turns up a baseball player :p
22:59 < CodeShark> ok, I think I found the right guy now
22:59 < CodeShark> stanford?
23:00 < CodeShark> oh, no...berkeley
23:00 < CodeShark> will P != NP be proven in our lifetimes? and what the hell is wrong with our axioms?
23:01 < gmaxwell> (in particular, the SNARK stuff is based on his work, as was the breakthrough of slightly feasble FHE based on LWE.)
23:01 < CodeShark> computational complexity is at once one of the most useful mathematical theories AND one of the mathematical theories with the least ability to actually prove its main claims
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23:03 < CodeShark> imagine archimedes sitting around and saying "we believe there's an infinite number of primes but we can't prove it" - I guess euclid's parallel postulate is a closer parallel
23:03 < CodeShark> (pun intended)
23:04 < gmaxwell> there are many unproven things which seem totally trivial.
23:08 < CodeShark> in this case it must have something to do with our axioms
23:08 < CodeShark> i.e. P != NP is independent of diagonalization methods
23:09 < bramc> CodeShark, There are the relativization, naturalization, and algebrization barriers to showing P!=NP, which combined together exclude almost all classes of approaches to the problem, although there's been some (comically limited, but still extraordinarily impressive) work which has gotten around them. There's a plausible approach which requires merely proving a generalization of a generalization of a generalization of th
23:09 < bramc> e riemann conjecture
23:09 < CodeShark> hah
23:09 < CodeShark> it all seems to come back to the riemann conjecture
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23:10 < gmaxwell> there are zillions of things which imply P!=NP, e.g. existance of one way functions implies P!=NP.
23:10 < bramc> the riemann conjecture is directly related to the general problem of pseudorandomness, because it's equivalent to a statement about the error term in the formula for the approximate number of primes less than a given value
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23:11 < gmaxwell> proof of any of the zillions of proven NP-complete problems is not in P would also prove P!=NP.
23:12 < bramc> CodeShark, Your guess that there's a deep issue along the lines of diagonalization not working is essentially correct. You can look up 'relativization computational complexity' and 'naturalization computational complexity' for more info
23:12 < bramc> gmaxwell, That... doesn't help
23:13 < CodeShark> so we're missing some basic axioms here...or perhaps the universe allows for a computational model where P = NP
23:13 < gmaxwell> There actually has been a lot of interesting progress in complexity theory on bounding approximations (which is often more pratically interesting than P/NP in any case)
23:13 < bramc> Adding axioms is unlikely to help, unless you add an axiom just saying P != NP, which is, uh, not useful.
23:14 < CodeShark> well, the point is that perhaps like the parallel postulate, we can formulate a fully self-consistent theory where P = NP
23:15 < bramc> CodeShark, Probably not, P vs. NP doesn't have the same kind of untouchable feel as the sorts of problems where those issues come up.
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23:16 < bramc> Certainly not like the parallel postulate, p != np is either true or false in a much stricter sense than the parallel postulate.
23:16 < CodeShark> well, sorta - I would argue that to ancient geometers, the parallel postulate also seemed to be pretty strictly true or false
23:17 < CodeShark> of course, allowing it to be false forced us to change the definition of "straight"
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23:17 < bramc> there's a deep philosophical distinction between 'independent' and 'true but unprovable'
23:18 < CodeShark> perhaps near black holes or near the big bang, P = NP or something :p
23:19 < CodeShark> our concepts of time and space fly out the window
23:19 < bramc> There has been some interesting work done on computational complexity around the surface of a black hole, but it doesn't relate to whether P!=NP, because it's a different computational model
23:20 < bramc> The more immediate and interesting question is the one of quantum complexity, which has a much more, ahem, complex relationship with classical complexity than popular writings indicate.
23:20 < CodeShark> but even quantum complexity suggests P != NP...with problems strictly contained in NP and strictly containing P
23:21 < bramc> In the meantime we have symmetric key primitives which are *probably* just fine, albeit rather inefficient compared with optimal constructions.
23:21 < bramc> Yeah, quantum computation doesn't speed up all that many things all that much.
23:22 < CodeShark> there's probably something fundamentally wrong with our notions of time and space as applied to complexity classes
23:22 < CodeShark> we know that the universe doesn't quite work that way
23:22 < CodeShark> turing machines and their kin use somewhat contrived notions of them
23:23 < CodeShark> which our theories in physics suggest otherwise
23:23 < bramc> turing machines and the like are a good representation of any 'reasonable' model of computation. Quantum mechanics is not a reasonable model of computation :-)
23:23 < CodeShark> lol
23:23 < bramc> We have no reason to think, for example, that the human brain pulls off any sort of quantum trickery to do its reasoning.
23:23 < CodeShark> well, some people do
23:24 < CodeShark> reminds me of conversations with Penrose :p
23:25 < CodeShark> the superposition principle does seem to apply to our conscious perception in some subtle ways...like our ability to imagine something in many different states at once
23:25 < CodeShark> our ability to hypothesize...to consider potential outcomes that haven't yet manifested
23:26 < bramc> *sigh* superposition has nothing to do with consciousness, and penrose's theories of the brain are, sadly, strictly wackadoodle.
23:27 < bramc> Considering potential outcomes doesn't require quantum anything. Chess programs do it quite well.
23:27 < CodeShark> the ability to abstract...to remove the concrete...and replace it with variables that can take on entire ranges
23:28 < CodeShark> the more advanced we get in math, the more we do this
23:28 < bramc> Again, this is not even vaguely quantum stuff
23:28 < CodeShark> we make statements that apply to entire infinite sets at once
23:29 < bramc> If you're really interested in the computer scientist view of quantum mechanics, you can look through the 'quantum computing since democritus' stuff by scott aaronson.
23:29 < CodeShark> all we need are negative probabilities and we're there :p
23:30 < bramc> quantum mechanics is basically complex probabilities whose magnitude is less than 1
23:30 < CodeShark> well, the interesting thing is how those probabilities interfere
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23:31 < CodeShark> from continuous waves we get discrete events...
23:33 < CodeShark> "complex probabilities whose magnitude is less than 1" is the kind of phrase you get when one's math formalisms are way far ahead of one's sensory intuition :p
23:35 < CodeShark> in a sense, the development of the language behind complex numbers is a little unfortunate because opportunities were missed to make it a little more intuitive
23:35 < CodeShark> i.e. the spinor/rotor language...or geometric algebra
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23:37 < CodeShark> then you end up with things like pauli matrices - which are perfectly legit mathematical formalisms...but bear very little connection to our sensory experience
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23:41 < CodeShark> It's worthwhile to read through Hestenes' reformulations to try to regain some geometric insight
23:42 < bramc> This conversation has strayed far enough off topic
23:42 < moa> CodeShark: geometric algebra is the biz
23:42 < CodeShark> indeed, moa :)
23:42 < moa> i'll PM you
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23:53 < the_last> wat
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--- Log closed Sat Jun 20 00:00:46 2015