--- Log opened Tue Jun 23 00:00:31 2015
--- Day changed Tue Jun 23 2015
00:00 < CodeShark> of course, it's hard to measure this very accurately
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00:06 < CodeShark> it largely depends on the hash power distribution
00:06 < CodeShark> but I guess we can make some simplifying assumptions
00:06 < CodeShark> like assuming that nobody controls more than x%
00:08 < CodeShark> actually, encouraging small miners to publish their work more frequently (at lower difficulty) would perhaps give us a better sense of hash power distribution
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00:09 < CodeShark> and discouraging withholding attacks obviously would as well
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01:57 < maaku> today I learned that sha224(sha224(a) || sha224(b)) takes two rounds to calculate the outer hash
01:57 < maaku> epic fail NIST
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02:01 < phantomcircuit> maaku, dat padding
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02:24 < maaku> FIPS-202 has three bits of meaningless padding, because no reasons at all
02:24 < maaku> but at least with the sha-3 block sizes it doesn't result in the same inconvenience
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04:36 < fluffypony> testing
04:36 < MRL-Relay> [fluffypony] testing
04:36 < fluffypony> yay, works again
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06:12 < stonecoldpat> what is mrl?
06:13 < fluffypony> stonecoldpat: Monero Research Lab, https://lab.getmonero.org
06:13 < stonecoldpat> ahh cool! :)
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06:28 < leakypat> petertodd: is there any hashing power on Testnet with the full RBF patch?
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06:59 < gavinand1esen> Has anybody done any simulation or modeling or research into the interaction between the random nature of block-finding and users' time preference for having their transactions confirm sooner rather than later?
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07:06 < instagibbs> the more you frown at your wallet, the more it bumps the fee
07:06 < dgenr8> gavinand1sen: as in, if poisson parameters were different, would users pay more or less for quick confirmation?  i guess you'd have to look at altcoins?
07:08 < instagibbs> really depends on the use case, clearly.
07:09 < instagibbs> Wonder if Bitpay has done a user study for their flow
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07:13 < gavinand1esen> dgenr8: No, I'm thinking of the interaction between the random nature of finding blocks, either a maximum block or memory pool size, and people's willingness to pay more to see their transactions confirm sooner rather than later.
07:13 < dgenr8> historically, highest fees - as measured in BTC - coincide with highest public interest and price runups. https://blockchain.info/charts/transaction-fees?timespan=all
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07:14 < ThinThread> obv we should drastically raise txn fees then
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07:14 < gavinand1esen> fees will automatically raise the next time we get a price spike
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07:15 < gavinand1esen> (fees as measured in dollars or euros)
07:15 < dgenr8> gavinand1eses: yes but it's non-obvious that fees as measured in BTC have also spiked
07:15 < ThinThread> almost forgot what dollars were
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07:17 < gavinand1esen> dgenr8: that IS interesting, but makes sense to me-- prices spikes correspond with lots of new users, and more users == more demand for transactions == higher tx fees
07:17 < gavinand1esen> (well, MORE tx fees at least)
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07:22 < dgenr8> gavinand1esen: more low-priority txes, less user sensitivity to fees
07:22 < dgenr8> gavinand1esen: fees paid as a % of value transferred could also explain it. not sure if anyone's doing that tho
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08:51 < maaku> leakypat: there could be
08:52 < maaku> phantomcircuit: can we deploy full-RBF to our miner?
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14:05 < leakypat> maaku phantomcircuit that would be cool, I'm going to look at prototyping something in the testnet version of my wallet (but no point if there is noone running the patch :)
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14:15 < petertodd> leakypat: what wallet is yours?
14:16 < leakypat> Ninki
14:16 < petertodd> leakypat: ah cool - I jsut setup a mainnet full-rbf dns seed btw for wallet authors, I'll set a testnet one too
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14:17 < leakypat> cool
14:17 < petertodd> my latest full-rbf tree has the dns seed support in it, rbf-seed.btc.petertodd.org
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14:23 < petertodd> leakypat: one thing you should do, is write your replacement code so it's full-rbf compatible, as well as fss-rbf compatible. The way I did that in my rbf demos was I made a variable for the minimum allowed value of the change output, and the loop that adding new inputs to make the change sufficiently large then would either start at 0 for full-rbf, or the previous value for fss-rbf
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14:26 < phantomcircuit> maaku, yes
14:27 < phantomcircuit> maaku, i'll get that working
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14:37 < leakypat> petertodd: ok, I'll implement both as going to prod prob only feasible for fss (for the near future anyway)
14:38 < phantomcircuit> petertodd, which branch is the full rbf?
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14:41 < roy> Am I right in thinking that not accepting non-final or soon-to-be-final transactions into mempool is a relatively recent change, or has that always been the case?
14:42 < petertodd> phantomcircuit: https://github.com/petertodd/bitcoin/tree/replace-by-fee-v0.10.2
14:42 < petertodd> leakypat: thanks!
14:43 < petertodd> leakypat: lemme know how that goes - if it's not as easy to implement both with the same code I'd be interested in knowing why
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14:43 < petertodd> roy: that was my first big contribution to bitcoin actually - been true for 2.5 years now
14:45 < roy> petertodd: cool, thanks.  Was trying to understand the history of the evolution of functionality around this area (prompted by BIP68)
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14:49 < roy> Although this also reminds me that the bit in the devloper guide (talking about nlocktime and sequence numbers) at least one place where it glosses over the history in a patronising sort of "things used to be different, but don't worry about it" way that I'm 99% convinced is likely to frustrate any developer
14:50 < petertodd> roy: actually, that might be there because mike hearn tried to politicise it by pushing the old, broken, nSequence replacement scheme
14:50 < phantomcircuit> petertodd, testnet's majority hashrate is now rbf
14:50 < petertodd> phantomcircuit: haha, awesome
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14:51 < roy> I might propose a pull request - it's in github, right?  I don't want anything policical - just a very brief history of the semantics of transaction replacement, rather than saying things used to be different
14:51 < phantomcircuit> petertodd, and when i say majority i mean approximately 100%
14:52 < petertodd> phantomcircuit: I'm going to have to aquire some equipment again to decentralize that situation :)
14:52 < phantomcircuit> petertodd, you will lose
14:52 < maaku> phantomcircuit cheats
14:52 < phantomcircuit> i am king of testnet!
14:52 < phantomcircuit> king i say!
14:53 < roy> out of curiosity, what is the hash rate of testnet these days
14:53 < leakypat> phantomcircuit: nice!
14:54 < maaku> roy: two SP20 miners or so
14:54 < maaku> roy: while you're at it, fix the off-by-one misconception about locktime
14:54 < maaku> (you can't get in the chain until AFTER nLockTime)
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15:11 < phantomcircuit> petertodd, neat confrimed working
15:12 < petertodd> phantomcircuit: wait, what's working?
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15:38 < CodeShark> does RBF handle chains longer than a single transaction or replacing two lower fee transactions with one higher fee one?
15:38 < petertodd> CodeShark: full RBF does
15:38 < petertodd> leakypat: just pushed to my v0.10.2 full-RBF tree the new testnet rbf seed, rbf-seed.tbtc.petertodd.org
15:39 < petertodd> leakypat: I also have a simple static dns record too, rbf-seed-static.tbtc.petertodd.org, and rbf-seed-static.btc.petertodd.org for mainnet
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15:40 < CodeShark> leakypat, you're the ninki guy?
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15:42 < leakypat> CodeShark: yes
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15:43 < petertodd> leakypat: what's the deal with the android wallet? can I use it without the desktop bit?
15:43 < leakypat> You can, but the idea is just to go through and complete the desktop setup
15:44 < petertodd> leakypat: cool, installing now
15:44 < petertodd> leakypat: let me know when you have some rbf code to test/review
15:45 < leakypat> petertodd: will do
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15:45 < leakypat> CodeShark: you run a wallet?
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15:51 < CodeShark> leakypat: mSIGNA
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15:54 < CodeShark> it's not a problem for me to support fee increases for outbound transactions...or transactions sent from another node using the same account...but SPV makes it a little hard to compute fees for inbound transactions, generally speaking
15:55 < CodeShark> except for special cases (where the inputs are all the same)
15:55 < CodeShark> and even then it's only possible to compute the fee difference, not the exact fee
15:55 < CodeShark> I hate SPV :p
15:56 < CodeShark> or rather, I hate that transaction inputs don't contain the value
15:56 < CodeShark> or that there's no simple mechanism to query that information in an efficient, private manner
15:57 < CodeShark> but SPV also makes it basically impossible to check for double-spends involving longer chains unless you maintain your own mempool
15:58 < CodeShark> but you cannot build a mempool without having the utxo set
15:58 < CodeShark> so SPV is jacked :p
15:58 < CodeShark> completely
15:59 < CodeShark> please, please, please...let's start talking about moving to an O(log n) verification protocol that doesn't have a special "simplified" mode :p
16:00 < CodeShark> what matters, ultimately, are risk metrics, probabilities, and game theory :p
16:00 < CodeShark> and computational complexity theory and all that...but we'll take those as givens for now
16:01 < Luke-Jr> petertodd: wait, RBF includes full CPFP mempool logic?
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16:04 < dgenr8> CodeShark: what if you got a "proto-block" message when the tip of an unconfirmed chain pays your bloom filter (this probably has a name, bip, something of which I'm ignorant)
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16:06 < CodeShark> dgenr8: that would at least make certain logic possible on the client...but it involves extra overhead for the relay node and has essentially no security
16:06 < dgenr8> CodeShark: no security is just a consequence of 0conf
16:07 < CodeShark> dgenr8: point being not sure it's worth the effort for this use case...which is to have a way of warning the user that a double-spend has been detected
16:07 < CodeShark> if you can't even be sure that the proto-block is authentic, it's basically useless
16:07 < dgenr8> CodeShark: serving SPV is one of the more important functions of a full node imho
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16:08 < CodeShark> if you want to use a trusted client-server model we can design a much higher txout request API :)
16:08 < CodeShark> much higher level
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16:08 < CodeShark> SPV basically serves no niche here
16:08 < CodeShark> you either go full verification or you trust a server
16:09 < CodeShark> if you trust a server, might as well use high level queries
16:09 < dgenr8> CodeShark: "here"?
16:09 < CodeShark> no niche in this space...ultimately
16:09 < CodeShark> it's terrible at verification, it's terrible at usability, it's terrible for development
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16:09 < CodeShark> it's a lose lose lose
16:10 < dgenr8> CodeShark: your idea of network-wide probabilistic verification is interesting
16:10 < CodeShark> I think ultimately we must abandon deterministic verification if we want any level of scalability (we do in a sense with sha256 already, but we could tolerate even higher failure probability)
16:12 < CodeShark> what really matters is that the risk level be computable...and that it be possible to either make failure rates negligible...or have mechanisms to mitigate failures
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16:13 < CodeShark> as for mechanisms, they could involve human players as part of the ecosystem (i.e. insurance or market makers)
16:13 < CodeShark> basically, a way to manage risks
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16:13 < CodeShark> probably far cheaper than forcing every single computer on earth to validate every single purchase of an espresso
16:13 < dgenr8> CodeShark: short-term, with SPV, if you could ask your peers to send parent chains, you can watch for double-spends.
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16:14 < CodeShark> I already ask for the node mempool...and assuming the node is trusted, this isn't a problem
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16:14 < dgenr8> how often?
16:14 < CodeShark> although it would probably be better to just add better query logic to the server side to simplify the client logic :)
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16:15 < CodeShark> since the server perforce is better informed to make better decisions and presumably has more resources
16:15 < CodeShark> architecting it so that this logic is on the client side is totally stupid unless it provides some amount of additional security/privacy
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16:17 < CodeShark> I query the mempool after the block sync...but then I set a bloom filter
16:17 < CodeShark> so it would probably make more sense to just get rid of the bloom filter after doing the historical sync
16:18 < CodeShark> and then just assume that transactions that don't connect to other transactions in the mempool must connect to the blockchain somewhere
16:18 < CodeShark> but argh...I mean...seriously?!?!
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16:18 < dgenr8> CodeShark: i wonder what hearn thinks
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16:22 < CodeShark> apparently this is what he thinks: https://github.com/bitcoinxt/bitcoinxt/blob/0.10.2A/src/main.cpp#L4107
16:24 < CodeShark> but without txout commitments, might as well write a REST API :p
16:24 < CodeShark> lol
16:24 < CodeShark> might as well just build a bc.i
16:26 < jgarzik> CodeShark, welcome to our arguments from ~12 months ago :)
16:26 < jgarzik> CodeShark, this is why getutxos isn't upstream...
16:26 < CodeShark> yes, I'm aware of that
16:27 < CodeShark> there really is no way to fix SPV
16:29 < CodeShark> SPV is completely busted and full validation is hitting a scalability wall...I hate to be a pessimist here...but....
16:29 < leakypat>  <CodeShark> but without txout commitments, might as well write a REST API :p
16:29 < leakypat> ^
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16:45  * CodeShark summons the ghost of satoshi and asks WTF?!?!
16:47 < phantomcircuit> CodeShark, the getutxo stuff is entirely so that mike could collect his $100k for building lighthouse
16:47 < phantomcircuit> which is afaict useless
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16:51 < CodeShark> I've unfortunately been in situations before where I had to deliver stuff for clients I knew wouldn't really work in the end...it can be hard not to be seduced into fooling yourself
16:53 < CodeShark> my awareness of this is largely why I actively refuse to let that happen here
16:54 < dgenr8> CodeShark: a parent chain with merkle proofs for all the inputs along the way doesn't work?
16:55 < CodeShark> dgenr8: there's no merkle proof for mempool transactions...but yes, you could have merkle proofs for inputs that do connect to the blockchain
16:56 < CodeShark> but again...is it really worth the effort? :)
16:56 < dgenr8> CodeShark: right i imagine having a full mempool involves adding a lot.  we need libmempool
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16:56 < akrmn> utxo commitments are a flawed system also, because there is no incentive for nodes to relay the merkle tree branches
16:57 < CodeShark> utxo commitments were my last hope of "fixing" SPV - but I give up - we need a new validation mechanism
16:58 < phantomcircuit> akrmn, and are stupid expensive to calculate
16:58 < phantomcircuit> O(n log n) n = utxo entries
16:59 < akrmn> does anyone have a link to a proposal for miner decentralization that doesn't involve tree chain like structures?
16:59 < akrmn> like something that has a good chance of scaling
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17:00 < leakypat> petertodd: do you have builds for the RBF client or am I to compile from github myself?
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17:09 < CodeShark> akrmn: working on ideas - hopefully one of these days I can be more constructive on this front rather than mostly pointing out how what we have won't work :p
17:13 < akrmn> CodeShark: My best idea is tree-structured subchains, but if someone has a better idea I would like to read it
17:13 < akrmn> I guess we can just set a limit on the scalability and rely on contracts
17:13 < akrmn> but doesn't seem elegant to me
17:14 < petertodd> leakypat: no builds just yet; will soon
17:15 < petertodd> leakypat: just did rbf for v0.11.0rc2 actually: https://github.com/petertodd/bitcoin/tree/replace-by-fee-v0.11.0rc2
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17:17 < petertodd> leakypat: also working on a fix so full and fss RBF will be more compatibile, so you can use both at the same time
17:17 < CodeShark> a few things: 1) it's not necessary for everyone to verify everyone else's stuff...what really matters is that validators don't collude to fool everyone else. 2) it's not necessary to check everything...it is enough that the rate of failure be sufficiently negligible and we can rely on nondeterminism. 3) It is better for those who need to construct proofs to have some stake in the result so that incentives are there to do
17:17 < CodeShark>  so. 4) Risk can be managed by adding collective fees of some sort...or encouraging insurance, market making, and other such people who are willing to assume risk
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17:18 < CodeShark> 5) a nested structure is probably a good idea, with the stuff closer to the root representing more global consensus states
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17:22 < akrmn> CodeShark: I think you have the same idea as me (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1083345.0)
17:23 < akrmn> You just need a way to keep deep forks minimal. That's what I'm trying to think about now.
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17:24 < akrmn> like if a deep child chain has a mistake, do all the other chains get affected?
17:24 < akrmn> I think it should be acceptable to keep going even if there is a small mistake in a child chain transaction
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17:25 < CodeShark> regarding things like invalid blocks, we could just roll back the bad transactions and their dependencies and punish the miner rather than rolling back the entire block if a bad transaction is discovered
17:25 < CodeShark> but the process of rolling back transaction dependencies is not that cheap
17:26 < CodeShark> it gets more expensive with time...but at least it results in far less disruption to everyone else
17:26 < akrmn> I think once a transaction goes from a child chain to a parent chain, the parent chain has to stick with it
17:26 < akrmn> even if later a mistake is found in the child chain transaction
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17:29 < akrmn> but good to know I'm not the only one thinking about these things. Sipa doesn't seem to like it. He seems to think that only omniscient nodes are useful for network security. But I think with this kind of rule that I just gave, it can limit the effect on the parent chains so maybe it is more acceptable.
17:29 < CodeShark> I think sipa's main critique, if I remember seeing it right, was the cost of transfering between chains
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17:30 < akrmn> there's no delay if the parent gets to commit to the child.
17:35 -!- zooko [~user@2601:281:8101:3c71:4199:245b:b2ad:3a2c] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:38 < CodeShark> so one way is fast, but what about going in the other direction?
17:38 < akrmn> (I mean: If an output goes in a transaction in a child chain, and then later in a transaction in a parent chain, then even though the value in the child chain is later found out to be wrong, nodes should just keep going with the value in the parent chain)
17:38 < akrmn> still need to clarify that
17:39 < akrmn> the child chain trusts the parent chain so it's easy the other way also
17:39 < dgenr8> CodeShark: setting aside radical redesigns of the blockchain, and ignoring privacy, a way to ask your remaining peers to prove a new tx invalid would seem very helpful
17:41 < CodeShark> dgenr8: if we could somehow reward peers for doing so you may be onto something
17:42 < CodeShark> then the main threat would be at the network level...where someone manages to block your connections to honest nodes
17:43 < CodeShark> (ignoring privacy for a moment)
17:43 < dgenr8> CodeShark: is that a big issue? they aren't rewarded for anything else...
17:45 < CodeShark> dgenr8: how costly is it for the node to do this? we'd need a full txout index, no?
17:45 < CodeShark> I mean, a full tx index
17:46 < CodeShark> or hmm...I guess spent outputs don't really matter
17:46 < CodeShark> except for reorgs
17:49 < CodeShark> it would actually be possible to pay people for these proofs if only the bitcoin script could reference other parts of the blockchain :p
17:50 < dgenr8> CodeShark: first task is to decide what the question would be, and what the answer would look like. then how to get there.
17:52 < dgenr8> CodeShark: sorry i can't just point you at a commit ;)
17:52 < CodeShark> heh
17:53 < CodeShark> so the question is: does this transaction conflict with any other transaction you know of? and the answer is a proof that they spend a common input
17:54 < CodeShark> they or one of their dependencies, that is
17:55 < CodeShark> so in the general case it requires constructing two dependency chains - but it's easier to prove conflict than to prove that they connect to the blockchain
17:55 < CodeShark> so we really have two questions here
17:55 < dgenr8> you started out just concerned about double-spends
17:56 < CodeShark> right - if you are only concerned about double-spends then just demonstrating a shared spent output is sufficient
17:56 < CodeShark> and you'd probably want to be able to check the signatures along the way
17:57 < CodeShark> but hmm
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17:57 < CodeShark> even checking signatures, unless you check that they do connect to the main chain it's super simple to cheat
17:57 < CodeShark> you could stick your own transactions in the middle and sign them...and they'll never confirm
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17:59 < CodeShark> so it doesn't really seem worth doing unless you can prove that they do connect
17:59 < dgenr8> ofc
17:59 < CodeShark> right, so I take that back :p
17:59 < CodeShark> it is not sufficient to just show a shared spent output :)
18:01 < CodeShark> I guess a more general question is: show me how this transaction connects to the block chain
18:01 < dgenr8> an invalidation proof could consist of a single connected conflicting spend
18:01 < CodeShark> right
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18:04 < dgenr8> do you check whether other peers inv'ed a tx that pays you?  that means they like it
18:04 < dgenr8> oh you have a filter
18:04 < CodeShark> yeah - lol
18:05 < dgenr8> gtg ttyl
18:05 < CodeShark> later, dgenr8 - thanks for the thoughts
18:06 < CodeShark> akrmn: still looking over your proposal...
18:07 < phantomcircuit> CodeShark, nobody has yet shown an efficient way do fraud proofs for aggregate limits short of zk-SNARKS
18:08 < phantomcircuit> proposals to commit to the aggregate limit values in fixed locations are the closest but have significant issues
18:09 < CodeShark> doesn't have to be zk, but yeah
18:10 < CodeShark> the thing is that it is probably not necessary for everyone to check the fraud proofs
18:11 < CodeShark> but I sense self-reference here :p
18:12 < CodeShark> someone then needs to construct a fraud proof of the fraud proof :p
18:14 < phantomcircuit> CodeShark, everybody needs to check the fraud proofs that they receive
18:14 < phantomcircuit> the problem is that the fraud proof for aggregate limit violations is... the entire block
18:14 < phantomcircuit> oops
18:14 < akrmn> CodeShark: Thanks. I don't really have a high level of popularity in this community, so it is hard to get people to give serious feedback
18:15 < dgenr8> CodeShark: XT nodes relay direct double-spends that match your filter.  but not when they appear in a block, and not when the conflict is with an ancestor.
18:15 < dgenr8> CodeShark: as the author of that patch i'm going to consider that ...
18:16 < akrmn> also I have to rewrite some things more clearly
18:17 < CodeShark> phantomcircuit: I was speaking regarding the ability to reward fraud proofs
18:17 < phantomcircuit> CodeShark, uh
18:17 < CodeShark> but yeah, let's not get into that problem yet
18:17 < phantomcircuit> how do you reward the producer of a fraud proof?
18:17 < phantomcircuit> im not sure that's possible
18:17 < CodeShark> with a script that can reference the relevant parts of the state
18:17 < CodeShark> signed by both
18:19 < phantomcircuit> CodeShark, and you pass the fraud proof off to a node
18:19 < phantomcircuit> who immediately removes your script and issues a new fraud proof with his
18:19 < CodeShark> hence requiring both signatures
18:20 < phantomcircuit> both?
18:20 < CodeShark> yes, it requires some blinding
18:20 < CodeShark> might require some pk fancy crypto :p
18:21 < CodeShark> but I think it's possible
18:21 < CodeShark> err, zk fancy crypto
18:21 < phantomcircuit> CodeShark, im thinking it's impossible
18:21 < phantomcircuit> the other party has to be able to validate the fraud proof
18:21 < CodeShark> three phases:
18:21 < phantomcircuit> in which case they can generate their own
18:22 < CodeShark> actually four rounds
18:22 < CodeShark> 1) party A requests proof from party B. 2) party B supplies zk proof, 3) party A signs, 4) party B reveals plaintext proof
18:23 < CodeShark> the script is only satisfied if (4) happens, of course
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18:28 < CodeShark> there might even be a way to condense it into only two rounds with some more clever tricks
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19:22 < morcos> This was just posted by sdaftuar, some good thoughts on the dangers of the current hard fork crusade: https://medium.com/@sdaftuar/how-the-bitcoin-experiment-might-fail-7f6c24f99ecf
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21:12 < amiller> how "robust" is the assumption that people will treat something like money / like a commodity if it behaves one?
21:12 < amiller> like, how crappy can a monetary policy where tons of people will use a cryptocurrency based on it, and the system would still work
21:14 < amiller> its too bad that there aren't yet many "appcoins" that have been a demonstrable success, because it would be easier to look at the incentives in those systems.. they wouldn't even necessarily need to compete
21:14 < amiller> namecoin as a whole should be 'earning income' from domain name registration fees... my understanding is that no one is using it though
21:15 < amiller> but a cryptocurrency with some nice feature like that basically has an export economy of some kind, surely that can only help it
21:15 < phantomcircuit> amiller, that nobody is using namecoin is itself a data point
21:16 < amiller> yeah well i don't trust any strong inferences based on it :O
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21:26 < zooko> amiller: I don't think we can make any reliable predictions or generalizations about this.
21:26 < zooko> But if you do make some, I want to know!
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21:52  * leakypat compiles Bitcoin qt for the first time and reflects on what a huge responsibility running the release procedure an official version would be
21:54 < jgarzik> phantomcircuit, amiller: it is false that no one is using namecoin
21:54 < jgarzik> several identity projects are building on top of it
21:55 < phantomcircuit> jgarzik, that's not a good idea
21:55 < phantomcircuit> the codebase is almost entirely unmaintained
21:56 < CodeShark> leakypat: welcome to the club :)
21:56 < jgarzik> phantomcircuit, also untrue
21:56 < jgarzik> but whatever.  Spewing falsehoods we wish to be true on this channel is becoming the norm.
21:57 < amiller> here's joe bonneau's takedown of namecoin http://weis2015.econinfosec.org/papers/WEIS_2015_kalodner.pdf
21:57 < phantomcircuit> jgarzik, i'd bet you serious money i can cripple namecoin in a matter of a few days
21:58 < phantomcircuit> but doing so is probably a felony
21:58 < amiller> in this channel falsehoods must be spewed in pdf form
21:58 < jgarzik> phantomcircuit, you also claim the ability to cripple bitcoin
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21:59 < CodeShark> usage isn't really the point - the current design simply is not viable
21:59 < CodeShark> at least not beyond an experimental research network
22:00 < CodeShark> that's just hard math
22:00 < CodeShark> it's not even controversial to anyone who bothers to make the calculations
22:00 < CodeShark> but it's still a cool idea - I hope someone manages to find a way to make something like that viable
22:03 < CodeShark> it's hardly ever the case with any technology that early prototypes are viable. this space is a little exceptional in seeming to expect that this doesn't apply here
22:03 < phantomcircuit> jgarzik, k
22:04 < CodeShark> add to that the fact that the design makes it so that all upgrades to the plane can only be done while in flight...and if you screw up you crash...and...voila!
22:04 < CodeShark> fun, no? :)
22:04 < amiller> i wish we could learn more from altcoins
22:04 < amiller> maybe there's something to glean from them
22:05 < amiller> bitcoin is still 'small', and so all the altcoins are really small, it's hard to believe there's a lot of signal there as far as what to do and not to do
22:05 < amiller> does a crash usually kill those or is it slow atrophy
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22:06 < amiller> i think (not too sure) no one cares enough about them to have big hard-fork dilemmas
22:08 < phantomcircuit> amiller, slow atrophy
22:08 < phantomcircuit> amiller, the one thing that has been shown to be 100% true is that anything which is available on a liquid market has value regardless of actual utility
22:08 < phantomcircuit> which is a neat observation
22:08 < amiller> yeah
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22:17 < zooko> jgarzik: Do you see IRC privmsgs for me? Once upon a time freenode silently silenced my privmsgs to some folks, and I've never trusted it since.
22:17 < zooko> jgarzik: from me, that is.
22:18 < jgarzik> zooko, I just responded to your PM.   Lots going on right now and I'm kinda burned out on FUD (not yours, others).
22:19 < zooko> *nod*
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