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07:31 < andytoshi> gmaxwell: (a) no, and (b) i think this is pretty hard actually, adam and i ran repeatedly into a related problem (proving a sum of keys was actually computed using the keys, without eg adding r to one and -r to another) when we were trying to make constant-size ringsigs. i don't remember the details but it was related to permutations (since the real key had to occupy a specific "slot" or something
07:31 < andytoshi> like that which ofc should not be revealed) and we got nowhere
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07:31 < andytoshi> i'll think about how to do it in say linear time wrt the size of the permutation tho..
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07:33 < andytoshi> but what was killing us was not so much our efficiency requirements, it was that you can't do much of anything to aggregate keys except adding them together, and that loses a ton of information
07:35 < kanzure> would there be any value in limiting the number of transactions in each block? rather than block size.
07:35 < kanzure> or, in addition to block size.
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07:35 < andytoshi> kanzure: it'd encourage coinjoining
07:35 < kanzure> awful!
07:36 < andytoshi> lol
07:46 < maaku> kanzure: value? yes it'd make the merkle trees smaller
07:47 < maaku> but while it encourages coinjoining, it works against OWAS or some p2p market ideas
07:50 < nsh> tends towards signer/coalition centralization
07:50 < nsh> doubleplusungood
07:51 < nsh> [even if there exist privacy-enhancing coalitions, you can bet dollars to donuts they will be sparse among the types of coalition that emerge when you incentizive them]
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07:57 < kanzure> is there a good reason we don't have a good aggregatable signature scheme yet
07:57 < kanzure> like a million-to-one aggregation?
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08:03 < kanzure> "Secure proxy signature schemes for delegation of signing rights" https://eprint.iacr.org/2003/096.pdf
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08:07 < nsh> kanzure, scaling behaviour is probably a factor
08:08 < maaku> kanzure: what do you mean by "we have"? there's good proposals
08:08 < kanzure> coinjoin is not sufficient
08:08 < maaku> though the one I like involves the pairing assumption
08:09 < kanzure> not sure which other proposals you are talking about
08:09 < maaku> kanzure: do you know OWAS? one-way aggregate signatures
08:09 < maaku> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=290971.0
08:09 < kanzure> i'm aware of the concept, but not of any specific bitcoin proposals
08:10 < maaku> well it'd be a hard-fork change, so it hasn't got much attention
08:10 < kanzure> this seems to be focused on anonymity
08:10 < maaku> (but it's something you could do in a sidechain!)
08:10 < kanzure> i'd be fine with an aggregate signature scheme that has no anonymity
08:10 < maaku> kanzure: for what purpose then?
08:10 < kanzure> abridging intermediate transaction history
08:11 < kanzure> instead of dumping all transactions into a blockchain
08:11 < maaku> kanzure: oh, well lightning
08:11 < maaku> and micropayment hubs
08:11 < kanzure> lightning is only a bi-directional channel
08:11 < kanzure> i want to send 100k payments and have each of my 100k different receivers also send 10k payments, and none of the intermediate transactions should need to be on the blockchain itself
08:11 < kanzure> and also, it would be nice if there could be arbitrarily-deep transaction chains that bridge the history of an even larger transaction chain
08:12 < maaku> kanzure: lightning is much more than a bidirectional channel, which is why it needs so many changes
08:12 < maaku> i'm not sure why you think you can't do that with micropayment channels
08:13  * nsh listens attentively
08:13 < kanzure> as you increase the number of people on each side of the channel, you increase the probability that one of them will want to throw the transaction into the blockchain to close the channel
08:13 < maaku> so? it only affects their channel
08:13 < maaku> it doesn't require anything else to hit the chain
08:13 < kanzure> well, the other users have to reopen channels
08:13 < kanzure> so....
08:13 < maaku> no, channels are direct
08:14 < maaku> if you close your channel with hub A, I don't have to close my channel with hub A
08:14 < maaku> now you move an insane amount of money around in one direction at once, it is true you will saturate one direction of a channel
08:14 < kanzure> closing a channel means putting a transaction on the blockchain....
08:14 < kanzure> sigh
08:15 < maaku> "well, the other users have to reopen channels" <-- this is incorrect
08:15 < kanzure> i was talking about a single channel
08:15 < kanzure> it's correct.
08:16 < maaku> if you have 100k people receiving payments, and 15 of them decide to close their channel, 15 transactions hit the chain
08:16 < maaku> i'm sorry, I'm just not seing the issue. maybe I'm dense
08:17  * nsh doubts there's a way to nontrivially improve on that
08:18 < nsh> sorry, doubts there's a trivial way to improve on that
08:23 < kanzure> so, that's unrelated to a single channel, i think
08:24 < maaku> nsh: me being dense? probably. nootropics?
08:24 < kanzure> the idea was to abridge transaction history, not "hope that they all collectively decide to close their channels after transacting in a way that happens to reduce the total number of transactions"
08:24  * nsh is definitely the denser :)
08:25 < nsh> kanzure, abridging without cooperation is... i don't want to say impossible
08:25 < maaku> snarks
08:25 < nsh> yeah, moonmathematical
08:25 < maaku> otherwise... nothing i know
08:25 < kanzure> i'd be okay with cooperation.
08:25 < nsh> that's a nice compromise between possible and impossible :)
08:25 < nsh> well, not closing your channel is cooperation
08:25 < maaku> kanzure: well, an active fee market is also important
08:25 < kanzure> no, snarks cooperation would probably involve stuff like "here, sign my fart"
08:26 < kanzure> instead of just "plz don't close your channel"
08:26 < maaku> kanzure: where I'm being dense is I don't understand the concern. closing a channel is not an externalized cost, due to fees
08:27 < maaku> if you want to close your channel, fine. pay up
08:27 < maaku> well, modulo all of bitcoin being an externalized cost to non-mining full nodes, etc. etc.
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08:28 < kanzure> so you believe that large quantities of transactions- perhaps billions- will have users that choose to use software that tries to find ways to close the channels in a way that minimizes the number of fees and number of transactions that get into the blockchain?
08:29 < nsh> no, i imagine the people paying the users will be strongly incentivized to minimise the overhead for the recipients
08:29 < nsh> and that will tend towards streamlining
08:29 < maaku> kanzure: when transaction fees are $100/tx, yes
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09:03 < andytoshi> kanzure: OWAS is slow and depends on pairing. it hasn't been implemented 'til now because it'd be a controversial hardfork for bitcoin plus it'd have bad scaling consequences (why there has been no "pairing-crypto alt" idk, nobody here has done it because there are better uses of our time)
09:04 < andytoshi> but given gmax's comments above about how OWAS interacts with CT, and adam's periodic musings on a "BDH-secure sidechain" (meaning one where pairing crypto's security assumptions are considered sufficient), i'm sure something will crop up in this area sooner or later..
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09:06 < nsh> well, i think once alpha proves the sidechains concept is feasible [assuming it does], then there might be a cambrian explosion
09:06 < nsh> to put it in provocative hyperbolic terms, after my idiom
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09:15 < maaku> the only reason OWAS wasn't in alpha was because CT was easier to get out the door first
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10:14 < maaku> maybe-interesting observation : with onion routing of lightning payments you can have "hidden" payment addresses
10:20 < Luke-Jr> can't you already? just payment protocol over tor
10:22 < nsh> CT can easily allow for hidden payment addresses by using address-ratcheting [OTR-style] through the side-channel. doesn't deal with the first address issue though
10:22 < nsh> (likewise OTR doesn't deal with identity/presence management)
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12:13 < Tiraspol> Anyone here who can help me with some java questions?
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12:27 < fluffypony> Tiraspol: ##java
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--- Log closed Mon Jun 29 00:00:55 2015