--- Log opened Mon Jun 29 00:00:55 2015
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12:43 < fluffypony> http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/academic-publishers-reap-huge-profits-as-libraries-go-broke-1.3111535
12:43 < fluffypony> science undergoing a 51% attack :-P
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13:28 < jcorgan> lol
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14:55 < leakypat> Was thinking about full nodes and the fact that an ever decreasing number of people use always on PCs at home anymore
14:56 < leakypat> People use laptops instead and so node is on/off line depending on what they are doing
14:57 < leakypat> Apple managed to sell those Timemachine boxes a few years back as a wifi station / backup solution
14:58 < leakypat> Being able to buy a stand-alone full node in non intrusive hardware box might be a solution
15:01 < phantomcircuit> leakypat, unfortunately people doing that are consistently producing underpowered systems
15:01 < kanzure> isn't that just increasing the attack surface for at-home consumer electronics and wallet storage stuff
15:02 < phantomcircuit> amusingly none of them  would work with > 1MB blocks within about 6 months
15:02 < leakypat> kanzure: you mean interns of back-dooming  the hardware device?
15:03 < kanzure> a backdoor installed by an intern? yea that too
15:03 < phantomcircuit> lol
15:03 < leakypat> Oops
15:03 < leakypat> Same issue with everyone running nodes on cloud services though
15:04 < phantomcircuit> leakypat, i think you can build something that would be reasonable as an always on system for about $500
15:04 < phantomcircuit> if the system isn't truly always on though the cost goes up rapidly
15:05 < phantomcircuit> since the performance of the system is now 1:1 correlated with how long it takes after startup for it to be useful
15:05 < phantomcircuit> afaict people are targetting $100 or so
15:05 < leakypat> phantomcircuit: something eg a business accepting Bitcoin can install and forget about?
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15:05 < phantomcircuit> which isn't going to work
15:05 < phantomcircuit> leakypat, as long as it's actually online all the time
15:05 < phantomcircuit> it's fine
15:05 < kanzure> leakypat: so far i can't think of any reasons why you should install that equipment (especially if you are not using the self-validation benefits)
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15:06 < phantomcircuit> if they turn it off at night or whatever then it's going to get more expensive fastish
15:06 < leakypat> Yeah $100 sounds right :(
15:06 < leakypat> kanzure: incentives to run one?
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15:07 < leakypat> kanzure: I'm thinking about packaging with a wallet business package or home "money" system
15:07 < kanzure> ah okay, so something left of "apocalypse banking kit"
15:07 < kanzure> er, right of
15:07 < leakypat> Hehe
15:08 < phantomcircuit> leakypat, you cant even buy a decent processor for $100
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15:08 < kanzure> would be nice to have an "apocalypse banking kit" that did coinjoin and lightning network hub hubbing stuff
15:09 < phantomcircuit> $100 gets you a very slow arm soc on a board with usb ports, sdcard, and ethernet
15:09 < kanzure> or torrenting-for-fee stuff and tor-for-fee stuff (was the pay4tor stuff safe?)
15:09 < phantomcircuit> with an sdcard that is only big enough for maybe 6 months
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15:10 < phantomcircuit> i guess if those had pruning and were actually online 24x7 maybe they could work
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15:11 < leakypat> Or some way to add remote storage?
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15:12 < kanzure> well, i think those problems are still up in the air regarding sybil and fairness
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15:16 < leakypat> Or some scheme where every computer science university department runs an always on full node
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15:17 < leakypat> I guess the real problem is incentive to run one :/
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15:17 < phantomcircuit> leakypat, that's more or less useless
15:18 < phantomcircuit> there's more than enough bandwidth to push the blockchain to peers
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15:18 < phantomcircuit> which is the only thing that cs dept would be useufl for
15:19 < leakypat> Yeah, I see
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15:20 < kanzure> and if there was some monetary incentive then there might be policy reasons against operating that node in an official capacity by those departments anyway
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15:32 < leakypat> The decline in the number of nodes... What do you see as the profile of the person who stopped running the node?
15:33 < leakypat> Eg. Enthusiast who got tired of running it on his pc  and just stuck an SPV wallet on his phone instead ?
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15:34 < leakypat> The general churn of Bitcoin users so the wallet options are not full nodes anymore for new entrants?
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16:06 < fluffypony> OT: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/greek-bailout-fund
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16:20 < phantomcircuit> leakypat, there was a period in which anybody who showed up would be told to run multibit
16:20 < phantomcircuit> that was a mistake
16:21 < leakypat> Multibit is SPV ?
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16:21 < leakypat> I see it is
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17:06 < CodeShark> SPV is one of those design problem things to look out for in future projects ;)
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17:09 < CodeShark> prunability and aligned incentives to trustlessly outsource succinct proofs are required for anything like that to be practical
17:11 < CodeShark> merkle trees for blocks was a good start...but not a good end :)
17:14 < CodeShark> I should say to trustlessly have succinct proofs produced...not necessarily "outsourced"...too many connotations
17:15 < CodeShark> in certain contexts at least one of the parties clearly has an interest to compute and store proofs relevant to their contracts
17:16 < CodeShark> but if there's a dispute you still have your loaded gun
17:16 < CodeShark> even if the bullet isn't free :)
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17:20 < CodeShark> in the worst of cases you take your case global and win (if you're right)...more costly than settling directly, but the uncooperative party can be held responsible for a good portion if not all of that extra cost.
17:23 < CodeShark> a justice system that relies on cryptographic signatures and witnesses for authorization...and whose interpretation of the law comes down to running computer programs
17:24 < CodeShark> it all relies on strong consensus at the top level, though...this is still a problem
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19:51 < leakypat> So, back to my point about lack of nodes, is it fair to say that centralized and SPV wallets have been created with a view to there being some kind of large scale adoption and these non   "Power users" needing something quick and easy to use
19:52 < leakypat> The adoption hasn't happened and so the result has been "power users" have ditched their nodes and are using centralized and SPV solutions because it's easy
19:53 < leakypat> So, a few years ago, all the dudes at my meetup would have been running full nodes, now instead they use breadwallet to buy their beers
19:54 < CodeShark> having each peer validating every single beer purchase on the entire planet doesn't seem like a good idea :p
19:54 < leakypat> Depends on the beer
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19:55 < leakypat> My point being is that centralized wallets (like mine) and SPV wallets have basically disincentive zed power users from running full nodes
19:55 < CodeShark> people who know what they're doing generally keep around a full node or two
19:56 < CodeShark> but that's not most :p
19:56 < leakypat> Yeah, exactly, it's like 20% of Bitcoin enthusiasts or something
19:57 < CodeShark> on the other hand many of these cases are high use high volume cases
19:58 < CodeShark> but still, we're hitting a scalability wall :p
19:58 < CodeShark> it's inevitable
19:59 < leakypat> What cases are high use high volume?
20:00 < CodeShark> nvm :p
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20:23 < kanzure> i really doubt it's 20% of all bitcoin enthusiasts. it would have to be a much lower percentage to match other observed measureguesses.
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20:44 < moa> it's a long september effect .... a smaller and smaller percentage of new users will be full-node 'material'
20:46 < moa> like second law of adoption: the level derp will always increase
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21:07 < leakypat> kanzure: you think lower? By enthusiasts I mean meetup regulars etc.
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