--- Log opened Mon Jul 06 00:00:02 2015
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00:14 < bramc> CodeShark It's not unreasonable to say that relay-then-validate is best practice. It results in optimized profits for everyone doing it, and maximizes fucking over of miners who haven't gotten with the program.
00:14 < bramc> I'm not joking
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00:15 < gmaxwell> bramc: well the screwing over is already optimized by matt's relay network-- as it actually does SPV only validation before relaying a block.
00:15 < gmaxwell> as its users are all parties we thought were (mostly) relaying for themselves.
00:16 < bramc> gmaxwell, Using the relay network is too much work, easier to turn off validation
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00:17 < gmaxwell> bramc: actually 'turning off validation' for these guys took a fair amount of software development.
00:17 < gmaxwell> But one thing I've come to learn is that lazy has many forms and often people find using someone else software or asking some questions about it to require more energy than spending several days/weeks rewriting from scratch.
00:19 < bramc> gmaxwell, That I can actually relate to, although it's gotten a lot better in recent years
00:19 < bramc> For example, years ago I wrote my own version control system. Now I'd merely like to dive deep into git and fix its fucking rebase implementation
00:19 < gmaxwell> yea, sure, sometimes myself too... though reconizing that its (sometimes at least) a kind of lazyness is interesting.
00:24 < bramc> gmaxwell, My team at work is writing their own GUI library from scratch. Woo mobile development. They tried using another one, and kept sending in patches to improve its performance until eventually they decided to just rewrite all of it.
00:25 < bramc> At least these days collections frameworks are fairly dialed in
00:25 < bramc> I'm not holding my breath on not having to do GUI code any more though. Web development works now, but mobile sucks, and in the not too distant future we're going to have to work with augmented reality...
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00:31 < CodeShark> there's that old article sipa once sent me about how it's harder to read other people's code than write one's own
00:32 < CodeShark> oh, yes... http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html
00:32 < CodeShark> it's an ancient article...but it's still quite relevant
00:33 < CodeShark> might need some updating of the actual product names...but otherwise the narrative still works :)
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00:35 < CodeShark> there are somethings I disagree with, though - like "It's important to remember that when you start from scratch there is absolutely no reason to believe that you are going to do a better job than you did the first time. "
00:35 < CodeShark> I find it to be the case that whenever I rewrite anything I always do a better job the second time
00:36 < CodeShark> but that's not quite the same as rewriting by myself what a bunch of other people wrote
00:37 < CodeShark> rewriting something that I originally wrote myself is entirely different
00:37 < CodeShark> because I bring all the knowledge and experience with me into the rewrite
00:38 < CodeShark> the real trick isn't rewriting everything from scratch - but compartmentalizing the ugliness :)
00:38 < CodeShark> especially relevant to bitcoin :p
00:39 < bramc> CodeShark I fundamentally disagree with the thesis of that essay. In practice people are way too conservative about when to just rewrite. You need a mature senior team to be able to do a rewrite and actually deliver it though.
00:39 < CodeShark> yes, there are many instances where the advice in that essay does not apply at all
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00:41 < CodeShark> there's a huge difference between reimplementing someone else's thing and designing something superior
00:41 < CodeShark> if you are able to really design something superior, go for it :)
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00:42 < CodeShark> but the superior stuff should probably be more than just refactoring
00:43 < CodeShark> as in, inventing a new product
00:43 < bramc> Not always. If you need to refactor more than about a third of the codebase it's generally faster and better to rewrite from scratch.
00:43 < gmaxwell> sometimes software seems complex to you because its solving hard problems and you don't fully understand it or all the issues it must solve; and sometimes its complex just because its crufty. It's easy to mistake the former from the latter, and important to avoid that error.
00:43 < gmaxwell> otherwise you can't make progress because you're continually repeating the past mistakes.
00:44 < CodeShark> well put :)
00:45 < bramc> It's remarkable how senior a team has to be to keep a codebase from becoming a disaster over time
00:45 < bramc> merciless refactoring is necessary just to keep things from spiraling out of control, as part of ordinary maintenance
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00:46 < bramc> My team had a real discussion once about order in which to do things, and it boils down to (1) code reviews (2) debugging (3) everything else
00:47 < CodeShark> how big is your team, bramc?
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00:47 < bramc> CodeShark Five people total
00:47 < CodeShark> good size :)
00:47 < bramc> Yeah it really helps to keep things small
00:48 < CodeShark> engineer parallelization definitely has more than log N overhead :p
00:49 < CodeShark> it's more like quadratic overhead
00:52 < CodeShark> what are you guys working on right now?
00:52 < bramc> p2p live video streaming, same thing I've been working on for years
00:53 < CodeShark> ah - I have a video codec issue you might be able to help with :)
00:54 < CodeShark> you've probably thought of this one before...but I need a secure unidirectional optical data transfer mechanism. something like IrDA is inexpensive but nonstandard. hi res color displays and cameras are a hell of a lot more expensive but are standard on all consumer products. QR codes are great for print media but suck for video. You get the picture :)
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00:55 < CodeShark> would be nice to have a video codec capable of high throughput
00:55 < CodeShark> but I haven't been able to find anything like that out there
00:56 < bramc> We just use H.264, and generally as pass-through, because reencoding is bad.
00:56 < bramc> Perhaps unsurprisingly, my focus is primarily on application-layer protocols.
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00:57 < CodeShark> so you guys aren't really into codecs...darn :p
00:57 < CodeShark> gmaxwell, weren't you into codecs?
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00:58 < CodeShark> bramc: I've run into several apps that attempt to get around the QR 4k limit by using multiple QR codes either displayed together or flipbook style...but no matter how hard they try it always sucks :p
00:58 < bramc> It's funny what expertise people disclaim. I claim to not be a cryptographer because I'm not as into fundamental algorithms as gmaxwell and djb. I also claim to not be a security person because I legitimately don't do that stuff because that shit is awful.
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01:00 < bramc> Mostly I do stuff using basic crypto primitives on top of IP with maybe a little bit of math. Notably there recently has been the development of Bitcoin, DissidentX, and Riposte, which seems to indicate that a lot can be done with vanilla crypto.
01:02 < p15x> isn't steganography just unworkable at a large scale because a dedicated attacker who can study wide use of it can write a detector for it?
01:03 < CodeShark> one-way functions and cyclic groups with hard-to-invert representations are pretty much the mainstay of all public key crypto
01:03 < CodeShark> but I'm really interested in learning more about lattice-based crypto
01:04 < bramc> p15x, The point of DissidentX is to make stego much more like regular encryption in that the security is *mostly* in the key. There can still be detectors, but it's possible to iterate on the encoding side without having to rewrite the decoder every single time.
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01:05 < bramc> CodeShark ECC turns out to be the most confidence-inspiring fundamental primitive (no controversy about that one in this crowd, but it was historically not viewed that way for political reasons)
01:05 < p15x> can someone not write a detector that is flexible enough to spot the general encoding pattern even if there are variations on the design or is it not feasible?
01:06 < bramc> p15x, That's a somewhat involved subject, but it's fair to say that a detector has basically no hope against an encoder who's able to look at the detector and iterate
01:07 < p15x> so it's a back and forth battle with no conclusive winner?
01:07 < CodeShark> the main advantage of EC as representations of cyclic groups is key length, no?
01:07 < bramc> p15x, It's also possible for the encoder to hide data at any rate they choose, including an extremely low one, and mix and match encoding techniques, which likely makes things hopeless for the detector in the extreme cases
01:08 < bramc> CodeShark Key length and generally being more confidence inspiring. RSA has all kinds of icky encoding gotchas.
01:08 < CodeShark> right - RSA requires choosing two primes...and not all prime pairs are equal :)
01:09 < bramc> p15x, Historically it's heavily favored the detecting side. With DissidentX the weight may shift the other way. It will never be 100% conclusive though.
01:09 < bramc> p15x, Unfortunately at this point the mainstream of the stego community doesn't understand what DissidentX does. I think when I tried to talk to them they got the impression that I'm a crank
01:10 < bramc> (not an unreasonable assumption for them, when someone outside your field says they have a result which requires that you rethink your whole worldview they're usually a crank)
01:10 < bramc> CodeShark It's far worse than that. The rules around checking that fucking high order byte can get you every time.
01:11 < bramc> There's a reason why ed25519 is a bijection
01:11 < bramc> Anybody know if secpk is as well?
01:11 < CodeShark> what do you mean it's a bijection?
01:12 < CodeShark> every pubkey maps to a unique privkey and vice versa?
01:12 < bramc> CodeShark Every byte array of the appropriate length is a valid public key. Same for private keys.
01:12 < CodeShark> yes, secpk is also like that - the private key is bounded above by the group order
01:13 < bramc> RSA implementers naturally want to do things like check the high order byte for validity as an optimization. Unfortunately it's fatal.
01:13 < bramc> Best to not even give the implementers that bit of temptation.
01:14 < bramc> ECC also lends itself much better to constant time implementation
01:14 < phantomcircuit> <bramc> It's remarkable how senior a team has to be to keep a codebase from becoming a disaster over time
01:14 < phantomcircuit> lold
01:14 < bramc> And its best algorithms have a lot less unnervingly clever math trickery
01:14 < phantomcircuit> so very true
01:14 < CodeShark> well, ultimately we're talking square-and-add, no?
01:15 < bramc> CodeShark I'm fading at the moment and you just asked a question which requires swapping more stuff into my brain right now than I'm prepared to to answer it.
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01:16 < CodeShark> if you don't really care about signing performance, it's not too hard to get it to be constant order - the trick is writing nonbranching code :)
01:16 < CodeShark> err, constant time
01:17 < CodeShark> you can always do conditional register swaps and carry out "dummy" operations
01:17 < bramc> That's a whole lot of temptation right there.
01:18 < CodeShark> https://github.com/CodeShark/cmp/blob/master/src/constant-time.h
01:18 < CodeShark> :)
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01:20 < bramc> Good night
01:20 < CodeShark> nite
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06:43 < jcorgan> sheesh i need more coffee, it took me half a screen of reading wondering what error correcting codes had to do with bitcoin :-)
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07:20 < kanzure> steganography framework https://github.com/bramcohen/DissidentX
07:20 < kanzure> not sure what the riposte thing is
07:21 < kanzure> probably some sort of anonymous messaging system somewhere
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10:20 < kanzure> andytoshi: what was the name or nature of the addition to the lightning protocol that we wanted?
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10:45 < narwh4l> If you're going to pass messages in the block chain, just encrypt them
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11:09 < kanzure> tls/ssl reimplementation from amazon people https://github.com/awslabs/s2n
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12:40 < zooko> http://www.metzdowd.com/pipermail/cryptography/2015-July/025971.html ← tromp_
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12:47 < gmaxwell> zooko: I prodded him offlist about his recent posts on PHC.
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12:55  * zooko looks at PHC
12:56 < gmaxwell> I feel like PHC has gone to the bad side of sci.crypt in the 90s, lots of arm waving posts--- more opinion than science. :(
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13:11 < zooko> I had no idea there was this great discussion of proof-of-RAM algorithms on the PHC list. Thanks.
13:13 < narwh4l> It seems like his argument for momentum at least is that miners will simply ignore the optimal approach for Momentum
13:13 < narwh4l> For some reason they will not be interested in the fact that the best performance comes from added memory?
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13:14 < narwh4l> Doesn't seem like a completely reasonable assumption to me
13:14 < gmaxwell> 'performance' is a mistaken assumption on your part.
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13:15 < gmaxwell> participants care about cost. PHC participants make a (IMO not very strongly supported, but earnest) assumption that memory is very expensive.
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13:27 < gmaxwell> zooko`: the point is that argon2d is as memory hard to verify as to create.
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14:36 < metamarc> Does anyone know of any wallets that plan to implement BIP47 ?
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15:38 < bramc> The Spacecoin paper doesn't have anything original about proofs of space itself, it just links here: http://eprint.iacr.org/2013/796.pdf
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16:01 < bramc> I'm puzzles as to what this paper does. You have their very special DAG construction, which results in a merkle root, and you... do what exactly with that root? I'm confused.
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16:17 < bramc> It seems like there's a challenge which gets issued, and the form of the challenge determines which paths up to the roots have to be revealed
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16:23 < bramc> This seems sort of like the opposite of proofs of sequential work, because with those you're trying to avoid needing space, where in this case you're trying to show space has been used
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16:44 < amiller> bramc,
16:44 < amiller> er nvm
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16:56 < amiller> i don't understand how to concrete apply this cuckoo parallelization thing
16:56 < amiller> what do you sort by
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17:38 < bramc> amiller, Not sure what you man, I'm trying to read the paper and am a bit lost in the weeds
17:39 < amiller> bramc, hi, wait which do you want to talk about, proof of space or the cuckoo thing :)
17:40 < bramc> amiller, looking through the channel logs, I'm confused what the reference to cuckoo is
17:40 < bramc> cuckoo I understand reasonably well
17:41 < amiller> bramc there's this post saying how to parallelize it and defeat time-memory tradeoff http://www.metzdowd.com/pipermail/cryptography/2015-July/025971.html
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17:43 < bramc> amiller, I don't understand what he's claiming about cuckoo
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17:44 < bramc> It seems implausible that such a trivial handwavy thing could bust cuckoo, given the amount of analysis it's had. All he's saying is 'oh, do a parallel sort'
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17:44 < amiller> also, who cares about time-memory tradeoff the point is work-memory tradeoff
17:44 < bramc> Since cuckoo is looking for cycles rather than collisions that seems basically inapplicable
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17:45 < bramc> Right, you can always do it faster if you're willing to tolerate exponential blowup in power consumption
17:46 < bramc> Although cuckoo is reasonably resistant to that as well.
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17:47 < bramc> My talk is up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZaB4hM8SQ4
17:47 < amiller> well it wouldn't be exponential blowup, just linear blowup
17:48 < bramc> It starts with 'the revolution will not be monetized'
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17:54 < amiller> i really liked 'the revolution will not be monetized'
17:55 < bramc> Thanks, I wasn't sure how that would go over.
17:55 < prosodyContext> + "The revolution will be annotated" —hypothes.is/about
17:57 < amiller> the 'cow protocols' thing had me on the edge of my seat too
17:57 < bramc> People like steak
17:58 < amiller> setting aside cuckoo for now... what was your question about PoSpace?
17:58 < amiller> yes you build this hash graph and store all the intermediate nodes
17:58 < amiller> and when you receive a challenge, you answer it by revealing some of the nodes and paths to the root
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18:02 < bramc> amiller, It's this paper, I don't understand it: http://eprint.iacr.org/2013/796.pdf
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18:04 < amiller> im not sure how to improve any intuition of it
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18:04 < amiller> i wish i had an intuitive grasp for what super concentrators and expanders looks like
18:06 < bramc> amiller, Even a straight answer to what the structure of the verifies is would be helpful. Is it a bunch of ancestors of a root revealed?
18:06 < amiller> i think it can just be a bunch of leaves
18:06 < amiller> and the branches to the root
18:06 < amiller> i think it helps to understand a couple of strawman schemes
18:06 < amiller> one they mention explicitly is where you have 100GB of actual random data
18:07 < amiller> you have to fetch that data from a source
18:07 < bramc> Yeah I figured out random data on my own. They say there are time space tradeoffs
18:07 < amiller> to satisfy a large number of small random queries, you'd have to be storing a large fraction of that space
18:07 < amiller> okay so another approach is to do several rounds of these all-or-nothing transforms
18:07 < amiller> where you fill up the 100GB, then apply some function that accesses every byte and gives you a new 100GB, and then do this several times
18:08 < amiller> but now you'd have to prove it's done correctly somehow
18:08 < amiller> as a strawman, you could compute a merkle tree of the final 100GB, and a once-and-for-all snark proof that shows its coonstructed correctly
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18:09 < amiller> then the challenge can be answered efficiently and you don't need a lot of communication, but the setup computation is infeasible
18:09 < bramc> I get the merkle root of random data one. The problem there is you don't have to store all the leaves, you can recompute the last few hops of them in parallel
18:10 < amiller> well, that requires accessing a lot of memory
18:13 < bramc> I'm thinking there's a challenge which specifies the path backwards from the root which must be revealed, so it's only logarithmic lookups
18:15 < amiller> you will have to reveal entire paths to the root
18:16 < amiller> i think a sequence is, a) build a confusing dag, b) build a merkle tree on top of the dag (the combined tree is still a dag) c) reveal paths from the merkle root to randomly chosen nodes in the original dag
18:16 < bramc> Right, that seems to be the general structure
18:17 < bramc> But what the form of the dag is and why is mysterious to me
18:18 < amiller> i think its just alternating layers of superconcentrators, bipartite expanders, and Erdos depth robust graphs
18:18 < amiller> (i have no idea what any of those are)
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18:19 < amiller> well its not the Erdos depth robust graphs its Erdos dense-long-path graphs.
18:20 < amiller> the most unintuitive part to me is that with such small samples, that you have a guarantee the graph is constructed mostly correctly
18:22 < bramc> All the examples I work through myself there are trivial cpu-space tradeoffs
18:23 < bramc> Although this does seem to indicate why I was able to improve on proofs of time: the dense long paths construction is about requiring memory, not time, which isn't what you want for a pure proof of sequential work
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18:25 < bramc> Of course that means that my clever tricks really, really don't apply to this problem
18:25 < amiller> bramc, the best proof of time puzzle uses a different family of graphs
18:26 < amiller> but feels like a similar approach
18:26 < amiller> https://eprint.iacr.org/2011/553.pdf
18:26 < bramc> amiller, I figured out a neat improvement on the best proof of time puzzles (unpublished)
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18:27 < amiller> bramc, ok im curious about that and how it compares to this 2011/553 thing, especially since they don't have any concrete parameters or implementaiton
18:27 < bramc> amiller, Mine is a lot prettier and simpler. I think I even implemented it already
18:27 < amiller> i want to make a little wacky-dags library that has these superconcentrators, expanders, deep and long
18:27 < amiller> bramc ok how does it work
18:27 < bramc> Unfortunately it isn't canonical, so the really dumb approach is better for a proof of time in a cryptocurrency
18:28 < amiller> ah
18:28 < amiller> i think this one has a single canonical correct one
18:28 < amiller> but it doesn't rule out that you can cheat a small number of them, and alter the resulting hash
18:29 < bramc> Right, you can cheat with a miniscule number of the steps and your chances of being busted are practically nothing and someone will have to redo all the work from scratch to find out
18:31 < bramc> So, the trick is that there's a merkle root of the things which were calculated in strict sequential order
18:32 < amiller> ok
18:33 < amiller> so, first i builld a big hash chain sequentially, then i build a merkle root over that
18:33 < amiller> then what, select random leaves of the tree / elements of the chain to reveal?
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18:34 < bramc> And the way you calculate each of the leaves is by calculating as much of the merkle tree as you can so far, then hashing together those branch roots to make the new leaf
18:35 < bramc> Then yes, you use the root as a seed to determine which leaves to reveal. The beauty of this construction is that the branch roots revealed on the way to the leaf are exactly the things which need to be hashed together to form the leaf, so it all can be verified together.
18:37 < amiller> i don't see how that rules out malicious strategies that 'cheat' on a small number of links, optimized to allow the computing the 'good' links with parallelism
18:37 < bramc> I don't have a simple explanation of why this seems to work but it does. The construction sort of collapses in on itself.
18:38 < bramc> If you try to attack it the attacks all seem to subtly not work, basically boiling down to skipping only a constant fraction and grinding, which you can of course do.
18:39 < bramc> That's the other reason for preferring the dumb approach
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18:40 < bramc> Maybe the more sophisticated constructions are more resistant to those sorts of attacks for deep reasons which I don't understand.
18:42 < bramc> Basically if you skip out on half and have N challenges then you need to run 2^N grinding to pull off a fake proof of sequential work
18:42 < bramc> I *think* that the other constructions have the same property, but I'm not 100% sure.
18:42 < amiller> the point isn't to skip half the nodes, but to lie about a very small number of links... you'll compute nearly the same amount of total work, but you can take advantage of the bogus links to do it in parallel
18:43 < bramc> Oh that seems to be covered. If you try to cheat that way you'll get busted by the branch roots being wrong
18:43 < bramc> It feels like there's something subtle to the whole thing which I have some trouble giving a good intuition for.
18:44 < amiller> yeah, me too
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18:44 < amiller> i think the approach taken by the academics is try to optimize for building graphs from esoteric parts (they have a big toolbox of parts to draw from) that can easily be proven to have the right property
18:45 < amiller> the other approach is to build graphs with simple intuitive structure, that seems to solve the problem by preventing any deviations
18:46 < amiller> so one possibility is that our solutions are also correct, just simpler to intuit but harder to prove... the academic ones are correct and easier to prove, harder to intuit why it solves the problem at all
18:47 < bramc> Yes I believe that's correct
18:47 < bramc> I'm off to the bitcoin-dev meeting now, laters
18:47 < midnightmagic> bramc: I wasn't expecting your talk to go the way it did. Thanks for letting me know it exists. Just as a tangent, a significant fraction of the electricity used in building the historical block chain has been hydroelectric with a zero carbon-emissions footprint.
18:48 < bramc> midnightmagic, Some devs were telling me that the recent stuff in china seems to mostly be hydro, which is good, although that's also offsetting other potential uses of that same power
18:48 < bramc> Not all that awful though since it's in an awkward out of the way place where it's hard to use the power well. It still sucks, but it's better
18:48 < midnightmagic> bramc: New hydro projects are significant carbon footprints. The old ones like in BC, Canada can claim *modern* zero-emissions.
18:49 < midnightmagic> woops, sorry, I didn't realize you were on your way out. Apologies, I'll stop bugging you. :)
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19:05 < ajweiss> proof of "i have a dam on my property"
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--- Log closed Tue Jul 07 00:00:03 2015