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The French are not happy. Pierre Jonanovic wrote a book I read some but it's all in French and not yet translated into English. 05:11 < M-Chickee> wreaking havoc 05:11 < fluffypony> M-Chickee: better suited to #bitcoin 05:12 < kanzure> http://tabbforum.com/researches/bitcoin-the-miners-dilemma 05:12 < M-Chickee> Okay, _mis come talk to me in Bitcoin 05:12 < kanzure> fluffypony: see pm 05:16 -!- Taek42 [~quassel@2001:41d0:1:472e::] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 05:16 -!- Taek [~quassel@2001:41d0:1:472e::] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:19 < M-Chickee> excuse me? See PM? Sorry FluffyPony. 05:19 < fluffypony> M-Chickee: it's unrelated to you, he was sending me a private message declaring his undying love for traditional Italian thin-crust pizza 05:21 < M-Chickee> Oh i see, excuse me let me get in this general bitcoin room and let the wizards preform your magic. I just like to read this thread. Good day. 05:21 < fluffypony> and good day to you too 05:22 < fluffypony> fare thee well, and may the road always be painted with straight lines, and have legible road signs, and also streetlights that work, and maybe no errant pedestrians 05:23 -!- narwh4l_ [~michael@host-232.subnet-17.med.umich.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:24 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:26 < M-Chickee> 😊✌🏾️ 05:29 -!- mjerr [~mjerr@p578EA5E5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:30 -!- mjerr [~mjerr@p578EA5E5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:30 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-69-23-213-3.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:33 -!- mkarrer_ [~mkarrer@71.Red-88-5-193.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:33 -!- mkarrer [~mkarrer@115.Red-88-20-136.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [] 05:33 -!- mkarrer_ [~mkarrer@71.Red-88-5-193.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:39 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@79-98-72-216.sys-data.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:39 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@79-98-72-216.sys-data.com] has quit [Changing host] 05:39 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:46 -!- execut3 [~shesek@IGLD-84-229-153-73.inter.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:48 -!- nubbins` [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:48 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:55 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-69-23-213-3.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:00 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:02 -!- execut3 [~shesek@IGLD-84-229-153-73.inter.net.il] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:08 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-57-0-31.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:12 -!- execut3 [~shesek@IGLD-84-229-153-73.inter.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:13 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:13 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:16 -!- morcos [~morcos@static-100-38-11-146.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:24 -!- instagibbs [32f65962@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.246.89.98] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:27 -!- execut3 [~shesek@IGLD-84-229-153-73.inter.net.il] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:28 -!- instagibbs [32f65962@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.246.89.98] has quit [Client Quit] 06:47 -!- hearn [~mike@p54842837.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 06:49 -!- drwin [~drwin@88-103-255-166.jes.cz] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 06:50 -!- drwin [~drwin@88-103-255-166.jes.cz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:58 -!- hearn [~mike@p54842837.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:59 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:20 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:21 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:23 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-98-157-219-44.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:26 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:30 < rodarmor> Your Group Order entitled "Wednesday Lunch " will close in 30 minutes. You have not yet placed an order as part of the Group Order, so your company asked that you receive this email as a reminder. Click here to place your order: http://www.seamless.com Enjoy your meal! 07:30 < rodarmor> whoops, sorry! 07:31 -!- flower [~user@71.116.150.203.sta.inet.co.th] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:31 -!- flower [~user@71.116.150.203.sta.inet.co.th] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:32 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-98-157-219-44.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:36 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:43 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:54 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:54 -!- shen_noe [~shen_noe@162.216.46.26] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:00 -!- rodarmor [~rodarmor@static-100-38-11-146.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:17 -!- Oizopower [uid19103@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-laggmvesgjrpjjfu] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 08:20 -!- ryan___ [~ryan@65.209.72.194] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:26 -!- arubi_ [~ese168@unaffiliated/arubi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:28 -!- hearn [~mike@p54842837.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 08:33 -!- davi [~davi@gnu/davi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:35 -!- kerneloops [~Tee@cpe-76-174-180-4.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:39 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-98-157-219-44.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:43 -!- JackH [~Jack@host86-161-51-131.range86-161.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:51 -!- Xh1pher [~Xh1pher@pD9E3A97A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:53 -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:55 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@239-196-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:57 -!- vegas [~vegas@cpe-75-176-1-198.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:59 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-98-157-219-44.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:01 -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.23.232] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:02 -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.23.232] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:05 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@76-255-129-88.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:18 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: Starduster, goregrind, Taek, mappum 09:18 -!- Netsplit over, joins: goregrind 09:18 -!- flower [~user@71.116.150.203.sta.inet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:18 -!- Netsplit over, joins: Starduster 09:18 -!- mjerr [~mjerr@p578EA5E5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:19 -!- Netsplit over, joins: Taek 09:20 -!- mappum [sid43795@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jxyetmhosnrhwsab] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:22 -!- kvnn [~kvnn@cpe-108-185-231-174.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:23 -!- vegas [~vegas@cpe-75-176-1-198.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:24 -!- bendavenport [~bpd@96.90.231.161] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:25 < Adlai> "group order" seemed on-topic, but things went downhill from there 09:25 -!- davi [~davi@gnu/davi] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:26 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:28 < waxwing> Adlai: :) .. is the ring sig stuff making sense now? 09:29 < Adlai> no, although i haven't looked at it again since last night. 09:30 < Adlai> the general concept makes perfect sense, the drouble is in the details 09:30 < waxwing> i remember struggling with that paragraph too, but maybe for a different reason 09:32 -!- drwin [~drwin@88-103-255-166.jes.cz] has quit [] 09:32 < Adlai> my confusion can be generalized as "there must be an i-1 SOMEWHERE, else all the arrows just point at the same node they point from" 09:32 < Adlai> which is starting to smell like the kind of confusion best remedied by reading/lwriting code 09:32 -!- nessence [~alexl@162.17.137.27] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:36 -!- Aquentin [~Aquentin@unaffiliated/aquentin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:36 -!- ryan___ [~ryan@65.209.72.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:36 < waxwing> each 'e' is the hash of the 'K' at the index before it (well, not only that, but includes that). that's why i wasn't totally clear about from reading it at first. 09:36 < waxwing> s/why/wasn't/ 09:39 < Adlai> there's no uppercase 'K', maybe you mean kG?+ 09:39 < waxwing> yeah, K=kG sorry 09:40 < waxwing> it's interesting reading the cryptonote version of the ring sig ... it's a simpler version of the same thing, except they don't use hashes to create causal connections between each node, so seems that's why it needs more data in the sig (all the e-values except one) 09:40 < Adlai> right. so i don't understand why it matters which e you reveal, as long as you make clear 1) the ordering of the s values, and 2) which s value corresponds to the e you revealed, by convention let's call that one s_0 09:40 < waxwing> plus they have the linkability thing 09:41 < waxwing> Adlai: right, it mustn't matter, eh, otherwise it wouldn't be a good ring sig? 09:41 < Adlai> well gmaxwell said otherwise, making me doubt my understanding 09:42 < waxwing> oh ok. i think i read that, but not sure what he was saying... 09:42 < waxwing> oh, maybe he's talking about the borromean aspect, yes 09:42 < waxwing> because in borromean you have to have several rings joining at one node 09:42 -!- Xh1pher [~Xh1pher@pD9E3A97A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:42 * Adlai hasn't gotten that far yet >:( 09:43 < waxwing> right, you're reading the AOS signature bit. 09:46 -!- davi [~davi@gnu/davi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:46 < waxwing> this is exactly how the 'compactifying' of the borr. version works: one hash suffices for all the rings at once, so it has to be e0 that's published. 09:47 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:48 -!- Mably [56401ec3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.64.30.195] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:48 -!- Xh1pher [~Xh1pher@pD9E3A97A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:48 -!- freewil [~freewil@unaffiliated/freewil] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:50 < Adlai> someday when a bitcoin's only price is "10e8 satoshi", there should be an actual monument of borromean rings, so even laypeople can appreciate the weirdness 09:50 < waxwing> :) anway, CCT is the new hotness now ... if i ever get that far :) 09:50 < Adlai> _C_CT? 09:51 < waxwing> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1085436.0 09:52 < waxwing> gmaxwell's last post in the thread does not fill me with a sense of mathematical adequacy lol 09:52 < Adlai> you could've at least linked https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1085436.0;all :) 10:00 -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [+o jcorgan] by ChanServ 10:00 -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [-q prosodyContext!*@*] by jcorgan 10:00 -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [-q M-_mis!*@*] by jcorgan 10:01 -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [-q ThinThread!*@*] by jcorgan 10:01 -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [-o jcorgan] by jcorgan 10:02 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-98-157-219-44.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:02 -!- Emcy [~MC@cpc3-swan1-0-0-cust996.7-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:02 -!- Emcy [~MC@cpc3-swan1-0-0-cust996.7-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Changing host] 10:02 -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:03 < fluffypony> Adlai: or ;wap2 10:03 < fluffypony> bester interface evar 10:07 -!- ryan___ [~ryan@65.209.72.194] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:07 -!- CoinMuncher [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:08 < waxwing> oh. TIL :) 10:10 -!- davi [~davi@gnu/davi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:13 < Luke-Jr> ;wap2 is annoying. I hate how Google appears to prefer it. 10:18 -!- zooko [~user@130.117.93.205] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:19 -!- AlexStraunoff [~stqism@freebsd/user/stqism] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:20 -!- zooko [~user@130.117.93.205] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:21 -!- AlexStraunoff [~stqism@freebsd/user/stqism] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:26 -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:33 -!- Aquentin [~Aquentin@unaffiliated/aquentin] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:41 -!- vegas [~vegas@cpe-75-176-1-198.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:41 -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:45 -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:48 -!- Aquentin [~Aquentin@unaffiliated/aquentin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:52 -!- JackH [~Jack@host-80-43-141-52.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:54 -!- StephenM347 [~stephenm3@static-64-223-246-218.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:55 -!- ryanxcharles [~ryanxchar@2601:645:8202:4881:c9de:ac2c:3d41:d465] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:55 -!- Luke-Jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:55 -!- Luke-Jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:56 -!- nessence [~alexl@162.17.137.27] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:00 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-185-201-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:11 -!- execut3 [~shesek@IGLD-84-229-153-73.inter.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:16 -!- mjerr [~mjerr@p578EA5E5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:17 -!- jaekwon [~jae@204.14.159.153] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:18 < amiller-> im still trying to figure out if/why borromean signature is different than what you can get with generic zero knowledge tools 11:18 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-185-201-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:28 -!- ryan___ [~ryan@65.209.72.194] has quit [] 11:29 -!- execut3 [~shesek@IGLD-84-229-153-73.inter.net.il] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:30 < amiller-> i haven't been able to understand the graph with backward time edges and causal loops at all yet Figure 2 11:31 < waxwing> personally i didn't find the graphs that helpful; it's just that since each node commits (hashes) the previous one, you can only go in one direction, except at a node you hold the privkey for. 11:38 < amiller-> okay so typically in OR proofs, there's a step where you fix a challenge c 11:38 < amiller-> and then you basically have to make up c1 c2 c3 c4 c5 if there are 5 clauses, that all sum to c 11:38 < amiller-> you have to include all 5 of those in the signature 11:38 < waxwing> yes, the AOS saves you from that :) 11:39 < amiller-> the idea is that for the private keys you don't know, you can have to fix c1 c2 c3 c4 to values you forced yourself into in the commitment phase, if you only know the private key for c5 11:39 < amiller-> so it works based on there being like 4 degrees of freedom but then the 5th is a real challenge 11:40 < amiller-> okay so using this AOS thing saves that 11:40 -!- execut3 [~shesek@IGLD-84-229-153-73.inter.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:40 < amiller-> i haven't figured out the trick yet - is it also general for any OR statement 11:40 < waxwing> any OR statement in what sense? 11:41 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-57-0-31.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:42 < waxwing> the trick is just that each node commits to the previous one, which would not allow a complete ring unless you can 'cheat', which you can if you have the private key by moving over to the scalar version of the equation ... choose s in k=s+ex or whatever 11:43 -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:54 -!- a773326b [~a773326b@91.214.70.207] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:56 -!- execut3 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