--- Log opened Thu Jul 23 00:00:19 2015
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01:59 < yosss> .
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02:33 < waxwing> i guess people here already know about this? http://enigma.media.mit.edu/enigma_full.pdf
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03:55 < moa> waxwing: interesting enigma ... taking on some hefty issues squarely
03:57 < waxwing> let's hope nobody finds any cribs ;)
03:57 < moa> scalability and privacy
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04:07 < moa> the blockchain becomes a verifiable index for computational data stored in the dht
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04:27 < AaronvanW> waxwing: which blockchain will enigma use?
04:28 < waxwing> AaronvanW: i didn't read it all, i got the impression bitcoin though
04:28 < AaronvanW> waxwing: I think not
04:31 < waxwing> http://www.wired.com/2015/06/mits-bitcoin-inspired-enigma-lets-computers-mine-encrypted-data/
04:31 < waxwing> ^ quote in the article suggests they do
04:31 < waxwing> "Every time someone requests a computation from the Enigma network, he or she pays a bitcoin fee. A tiny part of that money is paid to a computer in the bitcoin network to record Enigma’s metadata in the blockchain"
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04:32 < waxwing>  i mean, it doesn't actually exist of course
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04:34 < AaronvanW> waxwing: looks like you might be right. it's confusing because in one article it says it uses technology "inspired by Bitcoin", and in the next it seems to actually use Bitcoin
04:35 < waxwing> it's hard nowadays since blockchain became the word-du-jour .. the journalists tend to just stop there.
04:35 < waxwing> i agree the paper seems to be a bit agnostic
04:36 < AaronvanW> waxwing: well, I am a journalist and I'm actually trying to find out which one it is ;)
04:37 < waxwing> AaronvanW: hah!
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04:38 < AaronvanW> but yeah, it does seem a bit agnostic, I guess that's a pretty good way to put it
04:38 < AaronvanW> might use that :p
04:39 < waxwing> AaronvanW: well in these kind of applications they tend to "fall back" to Bitcoin, although knowing they don't necessarily need to use it, because the stability/security from the hashpower makes it the obvious choice. That's my read.
04:41 < waxwing> this is mainly about MPC though, and what always seemed to kill that off was the enormous interactivity.
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12:39 < jonasschnelli> Does anyone know what keypath Electrums multisig wallet uses? Probably not bip44 conform because it only asks me after a the master pub key (bip44 goes over hardened keys).
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13:00 < kanzure> there are many electrum multisig classes, including some legacy implementations
13:01 < kanzure> which i believe are still kept in the source code, should be easy to dig them up
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13:14 < jcorgan> jonasschnelli: i don't know the exact key path but i do know it is know bip44
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13:43 < lmatteis> is anybody familiar with how Nxt's proof-of-stake system works? i've been studying it in depth for the past week and still have some concerns about its functionality
13:43 < lmatteis> because the forging (aka mining) happens based on which "active account" has most coins (and some other random stuff)
13:44 < lmatteis> but i don't understand what's then stopping someone from simply forging their own chain, sort of pretending they were the only ones online at that moment, and broadcasting such chain
13:44 < lmatteis> what's stopping peers from accepting such chain?
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13:48 < Luke-Jr> lmatteis: probably nothing; ##altcoin-dev though
13:49 < lmatteis> ok
13:49 < lmatteis> even though "This channel is  is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies"
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14:07 < lmatteis> "other peers will reject this 20 blocks chain since they can calculate that the forger forged the blocks before its due time."
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14:07 < lmatteis> that's what i got from the forums
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14:10 < lmatteis> but i mean, time could still be simulated :/
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14:17 < tromp_> if you timestamp blocks with a future time, then they will be either dropped or delayed until the timestamp is reached
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14:19 < phantomcircuit> lmatteis, PoS people have wasted an enormous amount of review time on ever more complicated systems which are still fundamentally broken
14:19 < phantomcircuit> so please dont talk about them here
14:19 < andytoshi> please no NXT discussion here, they have been historically very antagonistic toward the goal of cryptocurrency research
14:19 < andytoshi> oh thx :)
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14:19 < lmatteis> really?
14:19 < lmatteis> i found lots of good research-y papers
14:20 < lmatteis> and i don't see why they would hurt cryptocurrency research
14:21 < andytoshi> lmatteis: yeah, they constantly change their (badly underspecified) design goals and strategies, and publish things that are hard to read and whose ideas have been repeatedly demonstrated to be broken
14:21 < andytoshi> well, they hurt it by wasting researchers' time and energy
14:21 < andytoshi> and they have no reason -not- to do so, it's not like they need that time or energy for anything..
14:21 < lmatteis> weird
14:22 < lmatteis> they seem like a well-minded community, not trying to waste people's time
14:22 < andytoshi> agreed. but they are far from the only ones :/
14:22 < nsh> conversation is good, so more conversation must be better? even if some of the conversation is just people repeating the chant "i know a song that'll get on your nerves, get on your nerves, get on your nerves" but with a variations on the theme of throwing complexity at a hard problem until you can't see why you haven't solved it
14:23 < lmatteis> well to be frank, you're guys counter arguments are also "conversation"... has there been experiments to disproof Nxt's PoS system?
14:23 < lmatteis> *your
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14:25 < phantomcircuit> lmatteis, after the roughly 1000th hour of wasted effort people decided to stop showing them why they're wrong
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14:25 < phantomcircuit> if they would like to pay for review time, im sure they can find someone interested
14:25 < phantomcircuit> but the gravy train of free indepth reviews is long since used up
14:25 < lmatteis> phantomcircuit: ok, so all PoS system so far have lacked the empirical evidence to show their system actually worked?
14:26 < phantomcircuit> lmatteis, they're fundamentally broken by "nothing at stake"
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14:26 < phantomcircuit> and look you made andytoshi leave
14:26 < phantomcircuit> that's how annoying they are
14:26 < lmatteis> i'm not a Nxt user, i'm just trying to understand how a top 10 cryptocurrency is fundamentally broken
14:27 < fluffypony> the larger problem, lmatteis, is that researchers don't have the time and energy to *prove* that something is broken, when their research is typically geared towards figuring out what is not
14:27 < fluffypony> so then you get people who are not cryptographers, who sometimes have their ideas gently put down (and sometimes not-so-gently)
14:28 < fluffypony> and instead of going "ok, I am now going to figure out why that's a dumb idea"
14:28 < fluffypony> they go "ZOMG THEY HATE ME" and barrel ahead with their dumb idea
14:28 < lmatteis> i agree. if it's a silly project that nobody backs, who cares. there's tons of silly ideas in the world
14:28 < fluffypony> they take it as a personal affront, which it is not (I have dumb ideas all the time, I'm only offended when those smarter than I *don't* put that out to me)
14:28 < lmatteis> but Nxt is backed by actual money, wouldn't you agree?
14:29 < fluffypony> so you're saying that there have never been people that have put money into companies without understanding the deep technical intricacies of the company's product?
14:29 < phantomcircuit> lmatteis, money doesn't make things smart; see ripple/stellar
14:29 < fluffypony> yup
14:30 < lmatteis> ok
14:30 < lmatteis> not just money, popularity, wiki pages, blog posts and articles
14:30 < fluffypony> cryptocurrency is a particularly bad spot, because the investment is not coming from measured, intelligent investors who are risk averse
14:30 < fluffypony> it's from seat-of-the-pants investors who think they're going to see many-thousands-of-percent increases in a short space of time
14:31 < fluffypony> it's the new VC gig, cheaper and faster than building a startup into a slightly larger husk and then exiting
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14:33 < lmatteis> don't you find it weird that, given the idea's popularity, we haven't seen empirical evidence that shows its flaws?
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14:33 < lmatteis> i mean, we're not talking about just a bad company or startup
14:33 < lmatteis> but an idea that powers several cryptos, no?
14:33 < fluffypony> there's not enough market capitalisation to make it interesting to the really motivated attackers
14:34 < phantomcircuit> lmatteis, https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf
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14:34 < phantomcircuit> rom the topic http://bitcoin.ninja/
14:35 < lmatteis> phantomcircuit: i read that a while ago, and highlights lots of interesting points. not with evidence though :(
14:35 < phantomcircuit> lmatteis, nobody has time to break version 1020202 of nxt
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14:35 < phantomcircuit> since they'll just modify things and call it 1020203
14:35 < kanzure> nobody would accept the results of a limited break of proof-of-stake
14:36 < kanzure> they will say "oh, well we can just add this extra dongle here and your hax no longer haxors"
14:36 < lmatteis> phantomcircuit: ah i didn't even know they do that
14:36 < fluffypony> yup, layering complexity
14:36 < phantomcircuit> lmatteis, their entire business is built around making it difficult to analzye the underlying protocol
14:36 < phantomcircuit> and when someone does find a break
14:36 < kanzure> the point is that most minimum modifications to proof-of-stake are trivially beatable; this is not effortlessly beatable, but rather constantly beatable. it's not impressive to have something that you can make hard in a small amount of constant time, that's totally pointless and infuriating.
14:36 < phantomcircuit> they simply modify the entire protocol to make it more complicated and harder to understand
14:37 < lmatteis> ah wow ok
14:37 < kanzure> yes, of course nobody is going to sit here and endlessly break all constant-time additions someone makes to proof-of-stake -_- duh
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14:39 < kanzure> i don't think anyone would accept a minimum-viable attack against proof-of-stake, because they will just say "proof-of-stake has already been modified to be slightly different". do you disagree that it would still be worthile ?
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14:39 < kanzure> *worthwhile
14:40 < fluffypony> it's like continuing to use MD5 but just using a longer salt :-P
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14:45 < kanzure> fluffypony: except nobody will complain that "well md5 is still safe if you use a 1024-bit salt"
14:46 < fluffypony> yeah, people get stupider when there's money and the hope of profit
14:46 < fluffypony> sigh, much greed
14:46 < lmatteis> ok the differences didn't seem that subtle
14:46 < lmatteis> i actually thought it worked and wanted to know how
14:47 < lmatteis> like i thought it was a working alternative to PoW
14:47 < lmatteis> but i guess not
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14:48 < kanzure> lmatteis: it depends on what you mean by working.
14:49 < fluffypony> it does work, as long as the only attackers are rank amateurs
14:49 < lmatteis> a system that has been proven to work... that resisted the use of many different types of attacks for many years without having to change the protocol in a major way
14:49 < kanzure> alternatively: "or it does work, if your concern about security is sufficiently strange"
14:50 < lmatteis> i also find it interesting, more theoretically, that Nxt uses a different distribution scenario where all coins are distributed at first, and then just moved around via transaction fees
14:50 < lmatteis> (apart from PoS this is)
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15:05 < phantomcircuit> lmatteis, they resist analysis not attack
15:05 < phantomcircuit> which is all you need for marketing it to suckers
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15:17 < leakypat> 6:33 AM <fluffypony> it's from seat-of-the-pants investors who think they're going to see many-thousands-of-percent increases in a short space of time
15:17 < leakypat> ^
15:17 < fluffypony> also see: Darkcoin/Dash, Maidsafe, Ethereum
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19:27 < paavokoya> i am paavo
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