--- Log opened Tue Jul 28 00:00:24 2015 00:01 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@bzq-125-168-31-73.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:02 -!- Emcy_ [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:02 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:06 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-185-201-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:16 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:17 -!- SDCDev [~quassel@unaffiliated/sdcdev] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:18 -!- p15x [~p15x@64.145.91.55] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 00:19 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@bzq-125-168-31-73.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:19 -!- p15x [~p15x@64.145.91.55] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:20 -!- shesek [~shesek@IGLD-84-229-153-73.inter.net.il] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:22 -!- p15x [~p15x@64.145.91.55] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 00:23 -!- p15x [~p15x@64.145.91.55] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:27 -!- tripleslash [~triplesla@unaffiliated/imsaguy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:30 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 00:30 -!- p15x [~p15x@64.145.91.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:36 -!- p15x [~p15x@64.145.91.50] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:37 -!- lnovy [~lnovy@2002:4d57:f055::1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:38 -!- shesek [~shesek@IGLD-84-229-153-73.inter.net.il] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:50 -!- SDCDev [~quassel@unaffiliated/sdcdev] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:56 -!- SDCDev [~quassel@unaffiliated/sdcdev] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:00 -!- CoinMuncher [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:10 -!- p15x_ [~p15x@64.145.91.113] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:11 -!- p15x [~p15x@64.145.91.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:13 -!- drwin [~drwin@88-103-255-166.jes.cz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:17 -!- b_lumenkraft [~b_lumenkr@unaffiliated/b-lumenkraft/x-4457406] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:21 -!- rubensayshi [~ruben@91.206.81.13] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:22 -!- jaekwon [~jaekwon@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:22 -!- Mably_ [56401ec5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.64.30.197] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:22 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@x55b28706.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:22 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@x55b28706.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Changing host] 01:22 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:26 -!- jaekwon [~jaekwon@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:27 -!- Rynomster [~quassel@unaffiliated/rynomster] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:30 -!- SDCDev [~quassel@unaffiliated/sdcdev] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:32 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:32 -!- theymos [~theymos@unaffiliated/theymos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:35 -!- cluckj [~cluckj@pool-108-16-231-242.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:37 -!- jtimon [~quassel@200.Red-79-148-174.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:44 < stonecoldpat> hi, has anyone got a record of the network traffic from the spam attacks a few weeks ago? (e.g. as the node hears the transactions and blocks on the network) 01:46 -!- Oizopower [uid19103@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cvixeqcimfpgjjlo] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 01:50 -!- Rynomster [~quassel@unaffiliated/rynomster] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:56 -!- hearn [~mike@84-75-197-78.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:56 -!- SDCDev [~quassel@unaffiliated/sdcdev] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:58 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:05 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 02:14 -!- drwin [~drwin@88-103-255-166.jes.cz] has quit [] 02:22 -!- drwin [~drwin@88-103-255-166.jes.cz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:23 -!- SDCDev [~quassel@unaffiliated/sdcdev] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 02:23 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@bzq-125-168-31-73.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:23 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@bzq-125-168-31-73.red.bezeqint.net] has joined 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timeout: 240 seconds] 03:29 -!- metamarc [~snizysnaz@unaffiliated/agorist000] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:30 -!- metamarc [~snizysnaz@97.95.172.50] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:30 -!- metamarc [~snizysnaz@97.95.172.50] has quit [Changing host] 03:30 -!- metamarc [~snizysnaz@unaffiliated/agorist000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:48 < waxwing> kanzure: thanks for the transcription! 03:54 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:01 -!- licnep [uid4387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hvqgsoglhwqerktr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:05 -!- hearn [~mike@84-75-197-78.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:07 -!- hearn [~mike@84-75-197-78.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:20 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:28 -!- hearn [~mike@84-75-197-78.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:38 -!- p15x [~p15x@64.145.91.34] has joined 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06:32 -!- p15x_ [~p15x@64.145.91.117] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 06:33 -!- p15x [~p15x@64.145.91.117] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:37 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-56-7-99.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:38 < kanzure> waxwing: no problem 06:39 < Adlai> you'll never make it to brain-in-a-vat status with such typing skills :P 06:43 -!- sparetire_ [~sparetire@unaffiliated/sparetire] has quit [Quit: sparetire_] 06:43 -!- Artimage [d88b8b32@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.216.139.139.50] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:44 -!- afk11 [~afk11@unaffiliated/afk11] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:44 -!- afk11 [~afk11@unaffiliated/afk11] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:45 -!- licnep [uid4387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hvqgsoglhwqerktr] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 06:49 -!- afk11 [~afk11@unaffiliated/afk11] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:50 -!- p15x [~p15x@64.145.91.117] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 06:51 -!- p15x 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ZZZzzz…] 11:40 -!- xabbix_ [~xabbix@bzq-79-177-174-163.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:40 -!- xabbix_ [~xabbix@bzq-79-177-174-163.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:00 -!- arubi [~ese168@unaffiliated/arubi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:00 -!- arubi [~ese168@unaffiliated/arubi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:00 -!- SDCDev [~quassel@unaffiliated/sdcdev] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:01 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-56-7-99.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:03 -!- Artimage [d88b8b32@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.216.139.139.50] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:07 -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@50-78-139-78-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:08 -!- mjerr [~mjerr@p578EAF05.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:24 -!- Artimage [d88b8b32@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.216.139.139.50] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 12:30 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:34 -!- nullbyte [~NSA@cpe-70-117-125-10.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:34 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:37 -!- nullbyte [~NSA@cpe-70-117-125-10.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:38 -!- cluckj [~cluckj@pool-108-16-231-242.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:43 -!- svdb64 [~weechat@unaffiliated/svdb64] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:49 -!- bedeho [~bedeho@cm-84.214.5.24.getinternet.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:50 -!- bedeho [~bedeho@cm-84.214.5.24.getinternet.no] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:55 -!- shen_noe [~shen_noe@104.200.151.19] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:57 -!- bedeho [~bedeho@cm-84.214.5.24.getinternet.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:07 -!- lmatteis [uid3300@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xvbgooheaaqovnmw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:09 < lmatteis> does anybody here believe that PoS can achieve consensus? or is the concept entirely based on false assumptions? and, does anybody know if there have been done any empirical analysis on its ability to reach consensus (or not)? 13:13 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:24 -!- ruby32 [~ruby32@38.121.165.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:24 -!- ruby32 [~ruby32@38.121.165.30] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:25 < kanzure> if the spoofs are indistinguishable then you might as well not even bother with proof-of-stake 13:27 -!- jaekwon [~jaekwon@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:28 < lmatteis> kanzure: what do you mean "spoofs? 13:29 < kanzure> fakes 13:30 < lmatteis> fakes what 13:32 -!- jaekwon [~jaekwon@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:32 < kanzure> no not the verb 13:32 < lmatteis> you're missing the subject 13:34 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:34 < kanzure> history. we're talking about history consensus. 13:34 < kanzure> so in this context it would be fake histories. 13:34 < kanzure> just like all the other times. 13:34 < lmatteis> which other times??!? 13:35 < lmatteis> sorry i have no idea what you're talking about 13:35 < kanzure> please read the logs (all of them) 13:37 < lmatteis> thanks but no thanks :) 13:38 < fluffypony> lmatteis: the broken record thing is really unappealing. I'm sorry there isn't a Wikipedia-style byte-sized entry explaining this stuff, but if you can't intuit the failure then you either need to accept that others have thought it through and found it lacking, or you need to read the logs 13:38 < fluffypony> demanding that someone else do the work for you (read and summarise the logs) is pathetic, stop being lazy. 13:39 < lmatteis> ugh, joining #math for some articles explaining how specific proofs were done, doesn't usually backlash with a "do the proof yourself and stop being pathetic" 13:39 -!- belcher [~user@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:40 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Quit: Bye] 13:40 < fluffypony> lmatteis: no, you're asking for why it *doesn't* work, not contrariwise 13:40 < lmatteis> "reach consensus (or not)" 13:41 < fluffypony> the onus should be on the PoS proponents to prove that it does, under whatever cryptographic model they choose 13:42 < lmatteis> i just asked whether anybody believe it could work or not 13:42 < lmatteis> why are you guys so defensive about PoS 13:42 < lmatteis> it's a chat room afterall 13:42 < lmatteis> let's chat 13:43 -!- b_lumenkraft [~b_lumenkr@unaffiliated/b-lumenkraft/x-4457406] has quit [Quit: b_lumenkraft] 13:43 < fluffypony> lmatteis: it's not defensive, it's just an unnecessary badgering on topics that have already been thrashed out 13:44 -!- RedEmerald [~RedEmeral@unaffiliated/redemerald] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:44 < kanzure> it's wrong to claim that anybody is being defensive 13:44 < kanzure> and also, it's sort of trollish to claim that anyone has called you pathetic 13:44 < fluffypony> kanzure: I did 13:45 < kanzure> whoops 13:45 < lmatteis> lol 13:46 < kanzure> okay, no you said the demand is pathetic 13:46 < fluffypony> yesh 13:50 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:51 < lmatteis> ok so i was thinking, something that is hard to generate but easy to verify right? 13:51 < lmatteis> (pos unrelated) 13:51 < lmatteis> doesn't star-hunting (or meteor hunting) have those properties? 13:53 < justanotheruser> Identifying a troll does 13:54 -!- Artimage [d88b8b32@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.216.139.139.50] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:56 < Taek> unrelated: has anyone given ethereum a serious review since their last iteration? 13:56 < Taek> I believe that the protocol has been more or less finalized for several months now 13:56 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-56-7-99.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:57 < lmatteis> Taek: careful you risk being called pathetic and to read the logs 13:57 < Taek> lmatteis: I've read (minus a few server outages) pretty much every line in this channel for the past 15 months 13:58 < Taek> and if people don't want to talk about ethereum, they just won't respond to my question 14:00 < lmatteis> justanotheruser: i seriously think astronomy might help (stars location, predictable information of their behavior, etc..) might help with decentralized consensus 14:00 < lmatteis> not sure exactly how though :) like for example stars have the cool property that anybody in the world can measure 14:00 < lmatteis> sort of like a map anybody can look at, trustless 14:02 < lmatteis> i was thinkering about the idea of people predicting planets *exact* position. closest to the correct answer wins the block 14:02 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:03 < Taek> “In the beginner’s mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert’s there are few” 14:03 < justanotheruser> lmatteis: these ideas are fundamentally flawed because you need a central authority to tell you the actual position and by extension the winner, also it isn't costly to make trillions of predictions, and isn't sybil resistance. Read the papers on bitcoin.ninja 14:03 < justanotheruser> *resistant 14:05 < lmatteis> hrm anybody could get a telescope no? 14:07 < kanzure> didn't we talk about this the other day? 14:07 < justanotheruser> There are so many problems with this idea, beyond the two I mentioned. Block malleability, nothing at stake, ... You should read the bitcoin white paper, alts.pdf, pos.pdf at the very least 14:07 < kanzure> i think you asked this same question the other day 14:07 < kanzure> our answers haven't changed since then :-) 14:09 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-98-157-219-44.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:09 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@216.54.247.198] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 14:09 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Quit: Bye] 14:11 < lmatteis> justanotheruser: right but "thinking outside the box" usually entails not cementing yourself around the idea that consensus is only doable when there's something valuable that needs to be burned (something at stake) 14:12 < justanotheruser> Correct, I have cemented myself around the idea that breaking consensus is costly 14:12 < justanotheruser> or at least it should be 14:13 < lmatteis> why? 14:14 < fluffypony> why should breaking consensus be costly? 14:15 < fluffypony> is that a question you're for serious asking? 14:16 < lmatteis> the why is referred to "why are you cemented in that line of thinking" 14:16 < lmatteis> fluffypony: read the logs 14:17 < fluffypony> sighbiscuits. 14:18 < fluffypony> Taek: nothing much has changed, it's still layered complexity to solve the fundamental problems - maybe it'll even go until it's worth something, at which point it becomes worthwhile for an attacker to abuse the broken fundamentals 14:19 -!- bedeho [~bedeho@cm-84.214.5.24.getinternet.no] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:20 -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@50-78-139-78-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Timing buffered disk reads: 394 MB in 3.02 seconds = 130.29 MB/sec 14:21 < sl01> ugh sorry, wrong window 14:22 < fluffypony> lol 14:23 < lmatteis> for example, imagine needing to triangulate the position of a satellite in such a way that requires literally many different "observants" spread around the globe. the more the users observing, the more precise the triangulation. every 10 minutes the most accurate observation is hashed and everybody moves on the next triangulation 14:23 < lmatteis> one cannot redo a block because it would require all the observers from the earlier round 14:23 < lmatteis> see where i'm going? 14:23 < justanotheruser> yes and it's not to bitcoin.ninja :( 14:24 < fluffypony> lmatteis: now imagine that I sponsor 500 sock-puppet observers and give them $50 each to lie 14:24 < fluffypony> where is your consensus now? 14:24 < jcorgan> and who decides the most accurate observation? 14:24 < belcher> how would someone check the consensus years in the future? 14:25 < fluffypony> you're thinking in generally-trustworthy human terms, lmatteis, you're not thinking adversarially 14:25 < lmatteis> fluffypony: you'd have to pay more observants than there were in that round, yes 14:26 < lmatteis> but yeah 14:26 < lmatteis> it's flawed because one can't check for past observations without a third party i guess 14:27 < belcher> so what are the advantages of it? it still sounds like a proof of work 14:27 < lmatteis> there's no work 14:27 < lmatteis> that's why it's easily faked 14:28 < jcorgan> so anyone could submit an alternative chain without any cost 14:28 < lmatteis> well, the cost is in the amount of geopgrahically dispersed nodes you have? 14:29 < jcorgan> i could just make it all up 14:31 < lmatteis> well the 51% honest nodes would win because they found their position which is different from yours? 14:31 < lmatteis> the idea is that you don't need just "more nodes" for a synil attack 14:31 < lmatteis> you need them geographically dispersed because of triangulation 14:32 < lmatteis> but it's flawed because there's no past record i guess 14:34 -!- bedeho [~bedeho@cm-84.214.5.24.getinternet.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:34 < lmatteis> but you're right, who's to decide what's accurate 14:34 < lmatteis> hrm i guess it's like PoW 14:34 < lmatteis> like if a dishonest node sends you a block with little difficulty compared to another one with more difficulty, you know which to accept 14:35 < lmatteis> here you'd need a way to check which triangulation was more accurate 14:35 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:35 < jcorgan> if you know the past positions, you can make up all the triangulation data 14:37 < lmatteis> make up = tell the network fake info? 14:37 < lmatteis> or, make up = calculate 14:39 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:39 < jcorgan> both. there is no way anyone can look at my chain and say it's not the real one. 14:40 < lmatteis> yeah 14:41 -!- RedEmerald [~RedEmeral@c-98-210-184-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:41 -!- c-cex-yuriy [uid76808@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qfxpuozxxmtzisqk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:41 < jcorgan> proof that work was done by thermodynamic expenditure can't be faked except through even more thermodynamic expenditure, and if that's the case, you win by design 14:43 < lmatteis> right and my idea was that it couldn't be faked except through more geographically placed nodes... but it has obvious flaws 14:44 -!- harrow [~harrow@105.ip-167-114-152.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:48 -!- harrow [~harrow@2607:5300:100:200::160d] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:50 < lmatteis> maybe there's a property in nature that can only be calculated if you have many dispersed nodes, and verified with ease by a single node 14:50 -!- jtimon [~quassel@200.Red-79-148-174.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: gone] 14:50 -!- jtimon [~quassel@200.Red-79-148-174.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:52 < lmatteis> ah and also needs to leave a trace so that it can be verified in the past :( 14:58 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:59 -!- RedEmerald [~RedEmeral@c-98-210-184-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:59 -!- RedEmerald [~RedEmeral@c-98-210-184-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:04 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:07 -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@x4d08d75c.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:14 -!- merlincorey [~merlin@nginx/adept/merlincorey] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:15 -!- merlincorey [merlin@69.42.217.140] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:18 -!- RedEmerald [~RedEmeral@c-98-210-184-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:22 -!- hearn [~mike@84-75-197-78.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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