--- Log opened Tue Aug 04 00:00:30 2015
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00:22 < Taek> I have never seen this before:
00:22 < Taek> https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/lorenzo/bar.html
00:29 < gmaxwell> I've talked about BAR model in here a fair number of times in the past; never seen that particular page; see (at least some of) the papers there. It's a useful model, I think.
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09:40 < lmatteis> is this real https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3frht4/satoshi_nakamoto_moved_today_for_the_first_time/ ?
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09:49 < frankenmint> https://blockchain.info/address/1HLoD9E4SDFFPDiYfNYnkBLQ85Y51J3Zb1
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09:49 < andytoshi> lmatteis: yes, but probably #bitcoin until (if ever) more information comes out
09:49 < andytoshi> i don't think anyone here was responsible for those transactions
09:49 < frankenmint> price movement today
09:50 < frankenmint> i mean coins movement but I'm certain that we could see market reaction to this as well,
09:50 < andytoshi> market reaction is definitely OT here
09:50 < frankenmint> sorry
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09:52 < fluffypony> andytoshi: oh sorry, it was me, my finger slipped when I was trying to play SatoshiDice
09:52 < fluffypony> :-P
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09:54 < btcdrak> BC.i go home you're drunk.
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09:56 < btcdrak> maraoz: so that's an attack on the blockexplorers?
09:57 < fluffypony> seems that way
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10:00 < maraoz> btcdrak: so it seems. bc.i is the only affected explorer afaik
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10:05 < fluffypony> btcdrak: "Relayed by IP 	Blockchain.info"
10:05 < fluffypony> so there's that
10:06 < frankenmint> hmm, I was thinking, if BTC hyptothetically could choose its own blocksize on its own, how would it work?
10:06 < frankenmint> would it be forward thinking or lazy?
10:06 < btcdrak> RIP anyone relying on BC.i's API and accepts zeroconfirms
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10:21 < lmatteis> andytoshi: before saying "yes" you should wait confirmations ;)
10:22 < andytoshi> lmatteis: well, it was a real bc.i link :)
10:22 < andytoshi> but yes, lesson learned, i thought this was too extreme a bug even for bc.i
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10:23 < GAit> I can't say I've seen worse but my first reaction was to check other block explorers and my node
10:27 < fluffypony> well this is blockchain.info
10:27 < fluffypony> they deserve to be stripped of the name on account of incompetence
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10:30 < Tiraspol> ^
10:32 < nsh> andytoshi, hey have you looked into multiprover models much?
10:33 < nsh> for zero-knowledge consensus, that is
10:35 < andytoshi> nsh: not at all, sorry
10:36 < andytoshi> i suppose multisignatures are a special case of that
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10:36 < nsh> hmm
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10:38 < nsh> i suspect there are definite efficiency savings, but you then have a problem of ensuring no collusion in some interactive proof, or you have a more abstract problem of facilitating non-interactive proofs with composition
10:38 < nsh> i was hoping that you might be able to avoid trusted setup using multiple provers, but that seems overly optimistic
10:39 < nsh> (PCPs can be dispensed with, but from what I saw, it was still under a CRS model)
10:40 < andytoshi> :/ i've been really out of the loop on zero-knowledge proving in 2015, all my crypto stuff has been ECC related.
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10:40 < andytoshi> though fwiw nothing has jumped out at me from eprint.iacr.org in that time
10:40  * nsh nods
10:40 < nsh> there's also this, which i missed last year:  ZØ: An Optimizing Distributing Zero-Knowledge Compiler  -- http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/livshits/papers/pdf/usenixsec14.pdf
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10:55 < nsh> 'Probabilistic proofs and the collective epistemic goals of mathematicians'   ah, science <3
10:56 < nsh> cited by 'Are there Psychological Species?'
10:58 < nsh> .title http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-662-46803-6_11
10:58 < yoleaux> Linear Secret Sharing Schemes from Error Correcting Codes and Universal Hash Functions - Springer
10:58 < nsh> (can you find the pdf for this, kanzure?)
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11:09 < fluffypony> ssh whoami.filippo.io
11:09 < fluffypony> clever
11:10 < fluffypony> (related blog post: https://blog.filippo.io/ssh-whoami-filippo-io/)
11:10 < fluffypony> also particularly relevant for anyone who uses github and ssh on the same box
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11:16 < arubi> fluffypony, awww :((
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11:31 < MRL-Relay> [shen] We tried to use that to find your GitHub username, but we          |
11:31 < MRL-Relay> [shen]     |  couldn't :( maybe you don't even have GitHub ssh keys, do you?
11:32 < MRL-Relay> [shen] haha
11:33 < fluffypony> lucky you, you've escaped identification
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11:38 < MRL-Relay> [shen] hrm my keys may be more recent than the dataset ran for
11:38 < MRL-Relay> [shen] "I started running the streamer on 2014-12-27 and now 2015-01-09 I have quite a few keys:"
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12:42 < psztorc> Salutations
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12:42 < psztorc> I've written a blog post you might enjoy, arguing that "Nothing is cheaper than Proof-of-Work".
12:43 < psztorc> http://www.truthcoin.info/blog/pow-cheapest/
12:44 < andytoshi> hi paul :)
12:45 < psztorc> hi andy : )
12:46 < nsh> ty
12:47 < nsh> i object to referring to how economics do anything as the correct way, even where it might be
12:47 < nsh> *economists
12:48 < psztorc> it isn't a general claim, of course, just one about measuring costs
12:50  * nsh nods
12:52 < nsh> .wik Spearman correlation
12:52 < yoleaux> "In statistics, Spearman's rank correlation coefficient or Spearman's rho, named after Charles Spearman and often denoted by the Greek letter  (rho) or as , is a nonparametric measure of statistical dependence between two variables. It assesses how well the relationship between two variables can be described using a monotonic function." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spearman_correlation
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12:55 < nsh> --
12:55 < nsh> ( Did you know that Bitcoin uses extremely strong randomness to select the creator of the next block? The randomness discourages collusion among block creators, making double-spend attacks unreliable. The randomness is so strong that no one can predict who will find the next block, or even when the next block will be found! )
12:55 < nsh> -- you link to the distribution that's used to predict when the next block will be found...
12:56 < psztorc> I know, I thought it was conceptually the closest
12:56 < nsh> i'm just suggesting that claiming it can't be predicted is a bit misleading
12:56 < c0rw1n> well it can't be predicted exactly ...
12:56 < psztorc> good point, I'll add "exactly"
12:56 < nsh> the fact that the period of block discovery converges on 10m modulo the cut corners of difficulty increases is kinda important to bitcoin working nicely
12:56  * nsh nods
12:57 < nsh> cut corners of *hashpower increases
12:57 < andytoshi> i really like the couple paragraphs after "Is a “Work-Independent” protocol possible?", i think this is something people have trouble understanding
12:58 < andytoshi> i do think your definition of P2P will be called "too strong" by people advocating (partially) centralized solutions; hopefully they will at least have to be honest that this is what they're doing
12:59 < andytoshi> "This is because Miners are the most able to double-spend, and these coins are the easiest to double-spend, and so they need to be held to standards which are extra-conservative" is sorta true but not why we have the maturity time
12:59 < c0rw1n> depends how blind you want the distribution to be exactly, but "infinitely" doesn't exist that's totally right
12:59 < andytoshi> it's easiest for miners to double-spend, but they can double-spend anything with the same ease
12:59 < andytoshi> the reason we have the maturity period is that in case of reorg, coinbase transactions are -gone-, even without malicious behaviour
13:00 < psztorc> Ok thanks
13:00 < nsh> psztorc, 'Earned $2000. After expenses and repayment, $230 was earned as compensation for specialized labor attention and risk-compensation.' how do you calculate that split?
13:00 < andytoshi> well, i guess if the same miner produced both forks the coinbase could be the same
13:01 < nsh> oh, nm
13:03 < lmatteis> in Vitalik's "On Stake" article, he states that a PoS system "no one gains any benefit from making more than one attempt per account per second" using a PoS algorithm such that SHA256(prevhash + address + timestamp) <= 2^256 * balance / diff. i'm confused by this. couldn't one peer try many future timestamps to find the "smaller" value and therefore claim
13:03 < lmatteis> the block?
13:03 < c0rw1n> then what's preventing anyone from makint 10k accounts?
13:03 < c0rw1n> *making
13:04 < fluffypony> psztorc: great article
13:05 < lmatteis> i guess that other peers won't accept timestamps in the future?
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13:06 < psztorc> thank you!
13:09 < nsh> i don't think it's entirely fair to say that large capital deposit illiquidity doens't have a temporary deflationary effect. i don't believe it's socially useful, but it may be argued to exist to a certain extent
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13:11 < nsh> pricing reflects circulating currency, not theoretically future circulating currency, but it's not quite that simple either
13:12 < nsh> actually, you address this is in the following paragraph
13:12 < psztorc> i get that a lot
13:14 < fluffypony> lol
13:14 < psztorc> it sounds funny, but I actually seriously wonder if there's something wrong with the writing
13:15 < waxwing> yes nice article, problem is how do we get people not like the ones in this channel to understand it ? :)
13:15  * nsh smiles
13:16 < nsh> start a cryptocurrency where you earn coins via comprehensive recruitment
13:16 < nsh> *evangelism maybe
13:16 < fluffypony> waxwing: you don't, PoS makes sense "intuitively" if you aren't used to thinking adversarially. Convincing people otherwise is...ugh...so much effort. The only way they learn is to get burned.
13:17 < nsh> asimov wrote a book once called "a choice of catastrophes" going into the various ways humanity might see its end
13:17 < nsh> someone could do a project where they create a successful of pedagogical altcoins that all fall to the various theoretical dangers in clear and theatrical ways
13:18 < nsh> sounds like a lot of effort though
13:18 < waxwing> fluffypony: well, that's a reasonable point but otoh in matters of money i feel like people understand that you can't just rely on fuzzy warm feelings. free market principles are widely understood. I think it's a failure to believe that physics can be involved that's the problem.
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13:18 < fluffypony> waxwing: what I mean is that most people are disinterested in learning and understanding
13:19 < fluffypony> that's not to say there aren't willing teachers, but how often is the "read the logs" post beaten here? people are lazy :-P
13:20 < nsh> .wik abatement technology
13:20 < yoleaux> "Disambiguation: Abatement" — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abatement
13:20 < waxwing> seriously; most are literally incredulous when they first discover that bitcoin is fundamentally based on electrical power. see for example I Kaminska's old article with a title something like "Is this how money dies? With thunderous CPUs?"
13:21 < nsh> unfuck-the-planet-tech, presumably
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13:28 < psztorc> Markets are a conveyor of information...such that people will have to agree with you, even without replicating your experiences or reasoning.
13:28 < psztorc> But we already have coinmarketcap with Bitcoin outperforming by like a factor of 200 and that doesn't persuade anyone either
13:28 < waxwing> agreed
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14:19 < tromp_> lmatteis: future timestamps will be accepted only later; thos in distant future may be ignored
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14:21 < tromp_> c0rw1n: splitting your balance doesnt help you satisfy that equation
14:23 < c0rw1n> yeah i misparsed
14:23 < c0rw1n> sry :(
14:24 < lmatteis> tromp_: say i just create a whole chain by myself, with entirely new transactions and blocks from the very beginning. are checkpoints the only thing stopping this from happening?
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14:27 < tromp_> well, the very beginning could be defined by an ICO genesis, it's not fair to call that a checkpoint
14:28 < tromp_> you still need to get hold of enough old private keys to rewrite history
14:29 < tromp_> eg. by hacking a wallet hosting exchange
14:29 < andytoshi> lmatteis: on bitcoin checkpoints will prevent this in practice, but it's not necessarily true that all nodes have the same checkpoints. what actually blocks you is the amount of work you'd have to do to beat the total chain work
14:30 < lmatteis> andytoshi: yep and that's obvious in pow. unclear in vitalik's implementation
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14:30 < andytoshi> oh, sorry, i wasn't following the context of the discussion
14:31 < helo> wow, that paper...
14:33 < nsh> ICO genesis, tromp_?
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14:34 < nsh> oh, initial coin offering
14:36 < tromp_> yep, like what NXT had
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14:36 < lmatteis> tromp_: but with keys wouldn't you only have access to that block? you wouldn't be able to generate the other blocks after it... or would you?
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14:40 < tromp_> you can make arbitrarily many blocks with arbitrarily many txs transferring stake among the accounts for which you have privkeys
14:41 < lmatteis> hrm ok
14:42 < lmatteis> so wouldn't a user that sold all his currency, go back and do this?
14:43 < gmaxwell> Or give sell his old empty keys to someone else who will.
14:43 < gmaxwell> Sure.
14:43 < gmaxwell> I mean, most of the time most people don't care to attack.  Though generally we don't regard things secured by indifference as very secure.
14:45 < gmaxwell> lmatteis: you've been coming in here every couple weeks since Sep 18 2014 and asking about POS; burning out a bunch of people on this subject who were already tired of explaining it multiple times. I really do think you'd benefit from carefully reading and contemplating the materials that were directed to you the very first time you joined the channel.
14:47 < lmatteis> ok yes. it was more a question regarding vitalik's blog post. but i'll stop
14:48  * nsh smiles
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15:00 < Taek> https://github.com/DavidVorick/Simulations/blob/master/Unlimited%20Blocksize/main.go
15:00 < Taek> I made a block propagation manipulate simulation
15:01 < Taek> *manipulation
15:01 < Taek> the results and conclusion are at the bottom of the file, the setup is at the top
15:01 < Taek> the results weren't as interesting as I was hoping
15:02 < Taek> I think it ultimately takes some pretty extreme network bandwidth asymmetry in order for a miner to encourage mining centralization via unlimited blocksize manipulation
15:05 < nsh> what is the limiting factor?
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15:11 < Taek> nsh: my setup has 6 nodes, 3 with 40gbps links to eachother, and the rest of the graph is fully connected at 1gbps
15:11 < Taek> the 40gbps nodes have 25% hashing power each
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15:12 < Taek> 40gbps vs. 1gbps is a pretty big disparity, and I don't think the results would be interesting if it was only 2x difference
15:12  * nsh nods
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15:22 < gmaxwell> Taek: uh. that looks bogus, go compare to sipa's simulator.  (As an aside; 40gbps? come on.)
15:24 < Taek> what looks bogus about it? (there are datacenters with 40gbps connections, I know it's a stretch but it didn't seem entirely unworldly. Do you think it was also too generous to give the 'weak' miners a 1gbps conenction?)
15:25 < gmaxwell> Taek: (as an aside; another thing to keep in mind is that since mining is perfect competition a 1% difference in blockchain concentration can be a 50% increase in profit.)
15:26 < gmaxwell> Taek: because your fully meshed network for 40gbps connections (assuming it was distributed around the world) would cost hundreds of thousands of dollars a month.
15:26 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, more than that...
15:26 < phantomcircuit> asia/africa are crazy expensive to get bandwidth
15:26 < gmaxwell> I'm being generous because it's been a few years since I was involved in building such things. :)
15:26 < Taek> I am skeptical that a 1% difference in revenue would blow up to 50% difference in profit, but fully aware that there is a large multiplier
15:27 < Taek> I also believe that's Sipa's simulation of adding only a 2mbps conenction between the mining groups is overly-strict
15:27 < phantomcircuit> Taek, the profit margin on mining long term approaches zero
15:27 < phantomcircuit> a 1% difference will be enormous
15:28 < gmaxwell> Taek: that was based on an actual measurement (to china); but you're free to change it and try different situations.
15:28 < phantomcircuit> iirc 2mbps is actually double the actual rate due to packet loss + tcp
15:28 < gmaxwell> Taek: getting the 50% blowup just requires mining be operating on a 2% margin over operating costs. We spent much of 2012 at that level.
15:30 < gmaxwell> I think in general trying to look for bandwidth dependance here though is stupid; because there is no necessary dependance at all.
15:30 < Taek> In general, investors will not invest in anything that has a lower profit margin than the S&P500, because they could have a higher profit margin just by sitting on the stock market.
15:30 < Taek> For that reason, I don't think profit margin would ever go to 0
15:31 < phantomcircuit> Taek, there's a delay between ordering hardware and the hardware being installed
15:31 < gmaxwell> Taek: fuzzy thinking. The hardware is already there. You insert $1 and get $1.02 in a fairly short timescale. People happily (?) buy bounds with interest rates lower than that.
15:31 < phantomcircuit> because of that the real profit margin will actually tend towards zero
15:31 < c0rw1n> also a delay between investment and dividends no?
15:31 < c0rw1n> on the Market
15:32 < phantomcircuit> not to mention that there's enough people out there with "free" power that anybody paying for it is guaranteed to go to zero
15:32 < phantomcircuit> c0rw1n, that's not the basis upon which most people invest in equities markets
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15:32 < Taek> it's definitely a fuzzy thing to reason about. I wouldn't put money behind any of my claims
15:32 < phantomcircuit> Taek, bitcoin mining is a classic perfect market
15:32 < gmaxwell> And there are plenty of reasons that it will be dragged lower e.g. due to power surpluses.  In any case, it's a big multiplier regardless of what it is it is exactly.
15:33 < phantomcircuit> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_market
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15:33 < c0rw1n> last time i looked it was flatly impossible to buy asics at prices under their fabricator's projection of their returns, free electricity or no :-(
15:33 < phantomcircuit> indeed it's probably the only one that's ever existed
15:33 < gmaxwell> And so then you get faced with the question of "hm, should I move my hashpower to megapool X to get 1%*huge_multipler more profit?" the answer is hell yes. :)
15:34 < phantomcircuit> c0rw1n, i suspect that antminers cost of production is significantly below their sale price
15:34 < phantomcircuit> but they are now an effective monopoly player
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15:36 < phantomcircuit> if you'd like to change that im accepting donations towards an open source bitcoin mining asic... so far i have collected $0.00
15:36 < phantomcircuit> :P
15:37 < c0rw1n> there were projects on btctalk like two years ago...
15:37 < c0rw1n> hmm
15:37 < c0rw1n> something somehing distributed assurance contract
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15:38 < Taek> huh. I never thought about adding bitcoin mining facilities to power plants to soak up overflow power
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15:38 < Taek> that might prove to be even more effective than Tesla's wall battery
15:38 < phantomcircuit> Taek, that's likely the eventual direction of the market; but that could take decades
15:38 < phantomcircuit> especially as most of the excess power is coming from nuclear stations
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15:39 < phantomcircuit> and they have unique security requirements
15:40 < AdrianG> but that would only allow miners run at certain times.
15:40 < AdrianG> isnt 21.co trying to do something similar with their chips
15:40 < AdrianG> suck up excess electricity in return for airmiles or something lol
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15:43 < AdrianG> Taek: i think plenty of people invest in things that yield much less than sp500.
15:44 < Taek> bonds is a good example
15:44 < AdrianG> not just bonds.
15:44 < AdrianG> rental real estate for example
15:44 < AdrianG> yields are lower, but so is the risk.
15:44 < AdrianG> real estate market in general is huge, much bigger than sp500.
15:45 < AdrianG> yet you have no shortage of investors of all sorts.
15:45 < gmaxwell> Taek: people already use mining for overflow power on industrial sites (often industrial power is billed at $$$ for peak  plus e.g. 2 cents per kwh. So when the machines are off, the miners are on... eating into that big peak)
15:45 < AdrianG> then you have mutual funds, income trusts, etc etc etc.
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15:45 < nsh> heh
15:45 < nsh> mining as variable power cost amortization
15:46 < nsh> actually, i think it was discussed before
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15:56 < psztorc> I tried to figure out what 21.co was up to, and failed.
15:56 < psztorc> But it occured to me that they'd have my phone mine while it was plugged into the wall and fully charged (like from 4 to 7 AM).
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17:00 < AdrianG> why not space/water heaters
17:02 < gmaxwell> because the marginal cost of additional area on a chip when you're already building and packaging a chip is fairly low.
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17:20 < AdrianG> it is, but you can still use the waste heat from large numbers of chips to heat buildings.
17:20 < AdrianG> in some parts of the world, the furnaces are on for like 9 months straight.
17:21 < gmaxwell> Sure but thats optimizing for the user's costs, not the mfg cost...
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17:24 < AdrianG> i am not sure how they are going to sell "pay higher electricity bill, get some magic internet money"
17:24 < AdrianG> tiny amounts of both, to the point of negligible?
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17:28 < azariah> psztorc: nice post, comments also turning out to be interesting :)
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