--- Log opened Tue Sep 08 00:00:04 2015
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02:29 < gmaxwell> Pieter's Key tree signature video is up: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3k2mcz/sf_bitcoin_devs_seminar_key_tree_signatures/
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06:20 < instagibbs> kanzure: don't show /r/bitcoin that growth page and give them ideas
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06:23 < kanzure> heh
06:24 < kanzure> just wait 'til my presentation
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06:29 < nsh> lol
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09:10 < kanzure> "In this work, we show how public parameters for a class of NIZKs can be generated by a multi-party protocol, such that if at least one of the parties is honest, then the result is secure (in both aforementioned senses) and can be subsequently used for generating and verifying numerous proofs without any further trust."
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09:11 < zooko> kanzure: Yeah!!
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09:18 < kanzure> "Coinparty: Secure multi-party mixing of bitcoins" https://www.comsys.rwth-aachen.de/fileadmin/papers/2015/2015-ziegeldorf-codaspy-coinparty.pdf
09:18 < kanzure> "A Note on the Unsoundness of vnTinyRAM's SNARK" http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/437.pdf
09:18 < kanzure> "Sybil-resistant mixing for bitcoin" http://forensics.umass.edu/pubs/bissias.wpes.2014.pdf
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09:19 < kanzure> "Centrally-banked cryptocurrencies" http://arxiv.org/pdf/1505.06895.pdf
09:19 < kanzure> "Provisions: Privacy-preserving proofs of solvency for Bitcoin exchanges" http://www.jbonneau.com/doc/DBBCB15-CCS-provisions.pdf
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09:54 < nwilcox_Afk> kanzure: This reading list looks excellent. Thanks!
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10:13 < kanzure> nwilcox: well here's some other stuff http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/
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10:14 < jl2012> gmaxwell, is the implementation of OP_CAT and Schnorr signatures in Alpha softfork-compatable with current Bitcoin script? Could we simply patch Bitcoin Core with the code in Alpha (with standard softfork procedure)?
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10:20 < gmaxwell> jl2012: No-- it's done there in a much simpiler non-softfork way. E.g. OP_CAT is straight up fixed and re-enabled. And checksig is simply replaced. It could certantly be made softforkable, e.g. by introducing a new p2sh type. Though I wouldn't recommend we do the the specific checksig formulation in alpha as we'd also want e.g. sighash flag updates (something gwillen has been working on for eleme
10:20 < gmaxwell> nts-beta)
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18:31 < rusty> petertodd: I created a revision of the version bits BIP.  Care to comment?  https://gist.github.com/rustyrussell/47eb08093373f71f87de.  TL;DR: tally only on retarget periods, year-based timeout (eg. 2018), 1 retarget period delay between 95% and actual activation.
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18:31 < petertodd> rusty: I'm not sure tallying on retarget periods is actually a good idea btw, as it makes normal blocks different than retarget blocks
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18:32 < petertodd> rusty: also, "Based-On-The-True-BIP-by" lol :)
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18:32 < rusty> petertodd: ?  Well, it saves some work and reduces the inaccuracy of continuous summation.
18:33 < petertodd> rusty: inaccuracy re: probability overestimation?
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18:34 < rusty> petertodd: yeah, which isn't so bad at 95% (but I haven't done the numbers myself)
18:34 < petertodd> rusty: saving some work isn't necessarily a good thing if it means we end up with two types of blocks to consider, normal and retarget blocks
18:34 < petertodd> rusty: at 95% it's not bad
18:34 < petertodd> rusty: I actually did a simulator for this, and don't remember finding anything interesting
18:37 < rusty> petertodd: Yeah, wolfram alpha says probability of 90% of hashpower getting 1916 / 2016 blocks is 9.89 * 10^-17.
18:37 < petertodd> rusty: yup!
18:37 < petertodd> rusty: other issues are much more likely to cause issues, e.g. DoS attacks
18:38 < rusty> petertodd: so doesn't really matter whether you measure every block, or every period.  But if that threshold were ever to be revisited, I have a mild preference for retarget boundaries.
18:38 < rusty> (Plus, the code is trivial0
18:38 < smk> and syntax apparently
18:38 < petertodd> rusty: sure it's trivial, but it's slightly more code than just doing it at every block :)
18:39 < rusty> petertodd: unless you decide walking back 2016 blocks every block is too much work and write caching code :)
18:40 < petertodd> rusty: well... the headers are in memory, so that's a very fast calculation
18:40 < petertodd> rusty: we already do that for the soft majority mechanism anyway
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18:41 < alpalp> Checking every block gives a higher likliehood of early trigger, though not likely enough to make a big difference
18:42 < rusty> petertodd: OK, well I can't marshal any immediate arguments against.  I do, however, think it's neater to align changes at organised points.
18:42 < petertodd> rusty: I think it's neater for every block to be processed exactly the same way ;)
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18:44 < rusty> petertodd: that debate was already lost, with difficulty adjustment.  I would agree if we were introducing some new concept.  But it's really bikeshedding.  If gmaxwell or sipa want to give an opinion...
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18:45 < petertodd> rusty: well... difficulty adjustment is possibly a special case due to how it prevents attacks, and also, it *is* cached!
18:46 < rusty> petertodd: but it's also an event in the miners' calendar.  Aligning soft fork changes with it makes perfect sense.  So it's slightly more work from a code POV, but simpler from a miner POV.
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18:48 < petertodd> rusty: true! that's a valid argument, as it gives them an easier time window
18:49 < petertodd> rusty: if you really wanted to be nice, you'd setup a weekly softfork time window and tie it to the median time calculation :) have fun coming to consensus on what timezone!
18:50 < aj> rusty: i bet with the chinese miners, you could work out a weighting that turns out to be UTC+9.5!
18:50 < rusty> petertodd: Ah, good thinking!  Clearly, soft fork enforcement should be scheduled on the next leap second, so that everything breaks at once...
18:51 < petertodd> rusty: lol
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18:51 < petertodd> aj: lets add a meta-consensus layer to this, that lets miners vote on the soft-fork timing, to better fit their sleep schedules!
18:52 < petertodd> (I'll suggest this next April)
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18:58 < rusty> petertodd: OK, I might post this to -dev for review, see if any other bikeshedding required.  sipa said he'd create some code, and CodeShark_ is doing some soft fork cleanups too...
18:58 < petertodd> rusty: oh, sipa did finally? good
18:59 < petertodd> rusty: also, related: did you see my proposal for a non-expiration version of nVersion bits, that doesn't require state?
18:59 < rusty> petertodd: I didn't see that... let me search logs...
19:00 < petertodd> rusty: http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-August/010396.html
19:01 < petertodd> er, actually, http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-August/010466.html
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19:06 < rusty> petertodd: OK thanks.  Unf. gtg, but you can see why I provided a table of years for timeouts; similar thinking.  As for stateless, there's very little state (which can actually be calculated on the fly if you want to be completely stateless).
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19:15 < kanzure> not sure if i am supposed to yap about bonded deployment stuff when versionbits is being described, or soft-fork timing is talked about
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19:57 < kanzure> "Zero knowledge from secure multiparty computation" http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/snarks/Zero-knowledge%20from%20secure%20multiparty%20computation.pdf
20:02 < kanzure> "Founding cryptography on oblivious transfer - efficiently" http://mmp.cs.illinois.edu/pub/mpc-ot.pdf "transforming secure honest-majority MPC protocols into guaranteed security in MPC protocols with no honest majority"
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20:06 < kanzure> lots of cryptographic primitives here, http://crypto.cs.uiuc.edu/wiki/index.php/Special:Allpages
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20:18 < kanzure> "Billion-gate secure computation with malicious adversaries" https://www.usenix.org/system/files/conference/usenixsecurity12/sec12-final202.pdf
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20:24 < kanzure> "Enigma: Decentralized computation platform with guaranteed privacy" http://enigma.media.mit.edu/enigma_full.pdf (seems to be a p2p secure multi-party computation ..thing)
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20:30 < kanzure> page 7 section 5.3 doesn't make sense.. what about sybil attacks?
20:34 < kanzure> "Using Bitcoin security deposits for punishing malicious nodes in MPC has been investigated by several scholars recently [22, 23]. We use a similar model, and extend it to penalize other malicious behaviors such as breaking correctness, which is validated by the SPDZ protocol (see section 5.1.2)"
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20:37 < zooko> Neat.
20:39 < kanzure> seemed to be in the press:
20:40 < kanzure> http://www.scmagazineuk.com/can-bitcoin-based-enigma-encryption-succeed-where-he-has-failed/article/424494/
20:40 < kanzure> http://www.wired.com/2015/06/mits-bitcoin-inspired-enigma-lets-computers-mine-encrypted-data/
20:40 < kanzure> there are a lot of very strong very worrying statements in their pdf
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20:49 < kanzure> "Notes on scalable blockchain protocols using collations and partitioning" http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/Notes%20on%20scalable%20blockchain%20protocols%20using%20collations%20and%20partitioning%20-%20vbuterin.pdf
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21:16 < kanzure> https://blog.ethereum.org/2015/04/05/blockchain-scalability-chain-fibers-redux/
21:16 < kanzure> "The basic idea of Chain-Fibers is unchanged from a year ago; split the state-space up into strata and have separate transaction collators specialising in one or a number of state sub-spaces. Transactions requiring interactions from many a subspace would be accordingly more expensive (since collators would have to maintain presence on multiple chains) and take longer to execute (since there is a lesser chance that any given block would ...
21:16 < kanzure> ... contain a superset of the transaction’s subspaces). Validity of a transaction is verifiable in isolation through the provision of comprehensive Merkle proofs to its inputs alongside it in the block in which it is included."
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21:18 < kanzure> "If a collation is challenged, then a larger randomly selected set of 2 ∗ m validators must attest to the validity of the collation in order to “redeem” it. Challengers can optionally pay a higher cost k ∗ cc in order to make the required redemption set even larger, 2 ∗ k ∗ m, right up to a maximum of the entire set of nv validators."
21:18 < kanzure> i am not so convinced about that
21:20 < kanzure> "An attacker can always create an unavailable collation, wait for challengers to challenge, and then publish the data and start the redemption process, costing the challengers money. The attacker may do this again and again, draining challengers’ resources, until eventually challengers no longer find it economically rational to challenge bad collations, giving the attacker free rein to push through invalid collations; we call this ...
21:20 < kanzure> ... the crying wolf attack."
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21:29 < Taek> the crying wolf attack seems like a pretty big problem to me
21:30 < Taek> The real problem is when you have multiple fibers start to interact with eachother
21:30 < Taek> you can only validate the chain then if you've validated each of the multiple fibers
21:30 < kanzure> the next few paragraphs suggests using bonds that can be taken by someone proving you had invalid data or something
21:31 < kanzure> "multiple fibers start to interact" i think the proposal is "let those take a longer time, who cares" which might work dunno
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21:32 < Taek> sounds like a proposal with weak fundamentals to me. "take a longer time" -> if you are on a fiber that's suddenly interacting with other fibers, do you have to start validating those other fibers too?
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21:32 < Taek> or do you just accept weaker security in the form of "nobody has proven it invalid, and I think some people are both honest and fully validating"
21:33 < Taek> it doesn't seem that different from the security model of SPV sidechains
21:33 < kanzure> "However, the result is important as it shows that, fundamentally, the level of overhead required in order to have a blockchain of size L is roughly m ∗ log(L), a very slowly-growing value. With clever use of zk-SNARKs, perhaps even a completely constant-overhead approach for blockchains of arbitrary size can be achieved."
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21:34 < Taek> Once you start introducing SNARKs the game changes quite a bit. If it is similar to CoinWitness you might be able to restore strong security properties
21:35 < Taek> '“Fishermen” is a term given to freelance checkers. Since block validation and availability are both important, and since it is possible that sets of validators may be contractually bribed, it is important to have a mechanism to involve additional rational individuals in acting as “whistle-blowers” to avoid bogging the other validators needlessly checking all blocks.'
21:36 < Taek> Any time you start relying on whistle blowers raises flags in my head
21:36 < Taek> it just doesn't strike me as a good security model
21:36 < kanzure> do you have the same opinion of using fraud proofs?
21:36 < Taek> largely yes
21:37 < kanzure> well at least you're consistent
21:38 < Taek> With Bitcoin you get the strength of certaintly that every transaction in your history is legal. Once you start depending on fraud proofs, you acknoledge that things are happening outside of what you are witnessing
21:39 < Taek> *things relevant to security
21:40 < Taek> Especially if you are using fraud proofs as a method of scaling, it's a lot of things
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21:41 < Taek> and given that even most miners do SPV mining, it's not really reassuring to assume that people are going to be actively validating and constructing fraud proofs on every part of the chain
21:41 < Taek> fraud proofs are nice if you are looking for something in between SPV nodes and full nodes
21:43 < kanzure> is there a denial-of-service attack against fraud proofs where you can increase the size of proofs of whatever fraud you have committed to impractical sizes
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21:45 < Taek> I'm not 100% certain in my answer, but I think that's an unsolved problem
21:46 < Taek> We don't know of a way to prevent such attacks, but we also don't know that such attacks can't be mitigated through improved methods
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21:48 < Taek> ". As such it is likely that validators and other large stakeholder would act as Fishermen to protect their investment" -> I think that this statement underestimates the dangers of 'diffusion of responsibility'
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21:54 < CodeShark> [21:39] (Taek) Any time you start relying on whistle blowers raises flags in my head <--- it all comes down to incentives
21:55 < CodeShark> If whistleblowing is actually profitable it can be a fine security model
21:56  * gmaxwell sets skepticism dial to 1
21:56 < CodeShark> out of 11?
21:57 < gmaxwell> CodeShark: so say you have some fraud proof thing and it's profitable to report fraud (and somehow you've avoided making it profitable for participants to conspire to create fake fraud).   OK.  So because the system works, it's never used. So it's not actually profitable in practice, though maybe it would be very profitable if it were ever used.
21:57 < gmaxwell> But monitoring has an ongoing cost, regardless of if there is fraud.
21:57 < gmaxwell> So this doesn't sound sufficiently stable for a security system.
21:58 < CodeShark> right, agreed - outsourcing vigilance might still be profitable, though
21:58 < CodeShark> You can still earn even if you don't detect fraud
22:00 < CodeShark> but then you need to prove lack of fraud
22:01 < gmaxwell> if you can efficiently prove a lack of fraud you just require the blocks to always carry one!
22:02 < CodeShark> yes, indeed...Or...you could do something along the lines of your dual block challenge idea
22:02 < CodeShark> Or....nvm
22:03 < gmaxwell> sometimes wish I hand't mentioned that! :)
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22:05 < CodeShark> yeah, it's hard to find a good incentives model for fraud proofs
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22:08 < CodeShark> might be better to stick with partial checks and probabilistic verification
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22:19 < CodeShark> Is there any way to revive the fraud proof concept? My skepticism meter just went to 0.5
22:19 < gmaxwell> I think what Taek said was right.
22:20 < gmaxwell> They're useful in certian contexts.
22:20 < gmaxwell> They can make reduced security modes better; they can make systems more efficient on average.
22:21 < gmaxwell> Like, I think a bitcoin that was still scaled within the realm of single hobbiests but expensive enough to run that few would is okay with a fraud proof mostly world.
22:21 < gmaxwell> Except for the partition and censor problems which I've never come up with a strong solution for.
22:23 < CodeShark> I don't think that's what we're after, though
22:25 < gmaxwell> Well I think thats all you can juice out of that scheme. In general I the fraudproofy stuff doesn't look so hot from a worst case analysis.
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