--- Log opened Fri Sep 11 00:00:07 2015 00:24 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:25 -!- NginUS [kvirc@67.249.111.47] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:25 -!- NginUS [kvirc@67.249.111.47] has left #bitcoin-wizards ["Once you know what it is you want to be true, instinct is a very useful device for enabling you to know that it is"] 00:35 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:36 -!- Aquentin [~Aquentin@unaffiliated/aquentin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:37 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:45 -!- mjerr [~mjerr@p5B209723.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:48 -!- rubensayshi [~ruben@91.206.81.13] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:51 -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.46.218] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:53 -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.46.218] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:17 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:32 -!- sparetire_ [~sparetire@unaffiliated/sparetire] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:34 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:11 -!- bedeho [~bedeho@50-202-37-133-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:34 -!- chmod755 [~chmod755@unaffiliated/chmod755] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:34 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f11db5b.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:49 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:02 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:10 -!- roxtrongo [~roxtrongo@190-22-194-231.baf.movistar.cl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:11 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:12 -!- Populus_ [~Populus@c-2ec39d04-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:14 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-185-201-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:20 -!- Populus_ [~Populus@c-2ec39d04-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:22 -!- gmaxwell [greg@wikimedia/KatWalsh/x-0001] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:24 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:57 -!- Guest15170 [greg@mf4-xiph.osuosl.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:58 -!- Guest15170 [greg@mf4-xiph.osuosl.org] has quit [Changing host] 03:58 -!- Guest15170 [greg@wikimedia/KatWalsh/x-0001] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:02 -!- Guest15170 [greg@wikimedia/KatWalsh/x-0001] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:15 -!- Burrito [~Burrito@unaffiliated/burrito] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:18 -!- ratbanebo [~ratbanebo@2a02:1812:1515:2400:5192:8989:785a:b38] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:23 < ThomasV> jgarzik: have recent versions of bitcoin merged some form of memorypool curator? 04:23 < nsh> hm 04:23 < nsh> in what sense of curation? 04:24 < ThomasV> removing tx that are there for too long 04:25 -!- gmaxwell [greg@wikimedia/KatWalsh/x-0001] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:26 < nsh> mempool references in changelog: https://www.google.co.uk/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=inurl%3Abitcoin.org%2Fen%2Frelease+%22mempool%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gfe_rd=cr&ei=MrvyVfjMCbPj8weaoJCYAQ 04:27 < nsh> seem to be some nondefaul configurable mempool pruning options added in 0.11.0 04:27 -!- AnoAnon [~AnoAnon@197.39.248.189] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:27 -!- AnoAnon [~AnoAnon@197.39.248.189] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 04:28 < ThomasV> I see 04:29 < ThomasV> ""More robust solutions are being worked on for a follow-up release. 04:30 < nsh> this patch will result in some transactions being removed from the mempool too: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/1c62e84 04:30 < nsh> but only nonstandard tx orphans i think 04:36 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:51 -!- devylon [~devylon@HSI-KBW-46-223-8-227.hsi.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: Lingo: www.lingoirc.com] 04:56 -!- gielbier [~giel@unaffiliated/gielbier] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 04:57 -!- gielbier [~giel@a149043.upc-a.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:58 -!- gielbier [~giel@a149043.upc-a.chello.nl] has quit [Changing host] 04:58 -!- gielbier [~giel@unaffiliated/gielbier] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:08 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:15 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:21 < bsm117532> Would be happy to hear some feedback on how to scale bitcoin: http://blog.sldx.com/three-challenges-for-scaling-bitcoin/ 05:22 < gmaxwell> bsm117532: Thanks for your post. 05:22 < nsh> cc kanzure 05:23 < gmaxwell> I have only read the begging not the substance yet; but regardless of what I think about the substance-- I think the perspective is helpful. 05:23 < bsm117532> thanks gmaxwell 05:24 < nsh> will you be at the scaling conf bsm117532? 05:24 < bsm117532> No, unfortunately, which is part of the reason to make this post. I hope it generates discussion there. 05:25 < nsh> okay. kanzure is giving a synoptic presentation of a range of different candidate future directions/changes. he may like to discuss his draft with you 05:26 < nsh> seems to be afk just now, but usually isn't too far from a keyboard :) 05:26 < bsm117532> My co-worker, Ivan Brightly, from SolidX will be there, and helped with editing/hashing out some of this. 05:28 -!- ishahnaz [~null@unaffiliated/ishahnaz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:34 < bsm117532> I've chatted with him before here. He's in NYC and we do need to hook up. 05:35 < bsm117532> I'm going to start organizing "Whitepaper Wednesdays" here in coordination with BitDevs (http://www.meetup.com/BitDevsNYC/), I hope I can get him to come as well as any of the other devs. I'll make an announcement about that soon. 05:39 * nsh smiles 05:42 -!- ratbaneb_ [~ratbanebo@78-23-10-185.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:45 -!- ratbanebo [~ratbanebo@2a02:1812:1515:2400:5192:8989:785a:b38] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:47 -!- ratbaneb_ [~ratbanebo@78-23-10-185.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:01 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f11db5b.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:01 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:03 -!- p15 [~p15@74.91.145.64.client.static.strong-tk2.bringover.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:22 -!- ratbanebo [~ratbanebo@78-23-10-185.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:26 -!- p15x [~p15x@102.91.145.64.client.static.strong-tk2.bringover.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:27 -!- ratbanebo [~ratbanebo@78-23-10-185.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:36 -!- mkarrer [~mkarrer@247.Red-83-36-8.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [] 06:38 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:42 -!- ishahnaz [~null@unaffiliated/ishahnaz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:51 -!- warren [~warren@fedora/wombat/warren] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:52 -!- warren [~warren@fedora/wombat/warren] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:01 -!- mkarrer [~mkarrer@247.Red-83-36-8.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:13 -!- bsm1175321 [~bsm117532@38.121.165.30] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:14 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-57-50-23.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:15 -!- kmels [~kmels@93.166.151.186.static.intelnet.net.gt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:17 -!- ratbanebo [~ratbanebo@78-23-10-185.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:21 -!- ratbanebo [~ratbanebo@78-23-10-185.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:27 -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@166.170.35.246] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:30 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:30 -!- null_radix [Elite7851@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-ybwyrvwcpniyywjj] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:32 -!- null_radix [Elite7851@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-dmzryqdkvxguijqg] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:34 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has quit [Quit: leavin on a jet plane] 07:35 -!- bliljerk101 [~bliljerk1@pool-74-109-193-20.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:37 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Quit: Bye] 07:39 -!- p15x [~p15x@102.91.145.64.client.static.strong-tk2.bringover.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:40 -!- waxwing [~waxwing@62.205.214.125] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:43 -!- waxwing [~waxwing@62.205.214.125] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:51 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@104-6-36-162.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:52 -!- chmod755 [~chmod755@unaffiliated/chmod755] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 07:55 -!- Dizzle_ [~Dizzle@104-6-36-162.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:58 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@104-6-36-162.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:58 -!- rustyn [~rustyn@unaffiliated/rustyn] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:59 -!- rustyn [~rustyn@unaffiliated/rustyn] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:11 -!- ratbanebo [~ratbanebo@2a02:1812:1515:2400:5192:8989:785a:b38] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:15 -!- ratbanebo [~ratbanebo@2a02:1812:1515:2400:5192:8989:785a:b38] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:16 -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@166.170.35.246] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:20 -!- hazirafel [~ufoinc@31.154.92.180] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:22 < dgenr8> bsm117532: wow. actual scaling ideas. not just new-ways-to-raise-blocksize-that-weren't-invented-by-gavin 08:24 -!- hazirafel [~ufoinc@31.154.92.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:24 < bsm1175321> Hahaaa 08:25 -!- cixx [~Rob@ip4da81ded.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:27 < dgenr8> but you won't be presenting at the meeting? that's a shame 08:28 < bsm1175321> No, sadly. I do have a draft "Braiding the Blockchain" which is idea #1 in my post (turning the blockchain into a DAG) that will be published soon-ish. 08:30 < dgenr8> idea (3) has the advantage of not requiring any kind of fork 08:31 -!- rubensayshi [~ruben@91.206.81.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:31 < bsm1175321> Indeed. I've not put a ton of thought into that one. I'm sure it has holes. 08:32 < bsm1175321> I'm not sure I like it either. There are probably better ways to shard the blockchain. I did notice there's a talk with that title at Scaling Bitcoin. 08:32 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE687f74122463-CM00fc8d24cab0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:34 -!- CodeShark [~CodeShark@74-216-109-222.dedicated.allstream.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:34 -!- rubensayshi [~ruben@91.206.81.13] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:39 -!- ThomasV_ [~ThomasV@p548FF9CE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:39 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:40 -!- ThomasV_ [~ThomasV@p548FF9CE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Client Quit] 08:40 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:44 < bsm1175321> I'll implement some of this and hopefully have it ready for the Hong Kong conference in December... 08:45 -!- Dizzle_ is now known as Dizzle 08:45 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE687f74122463-CM00fc8d24cab0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:49 < dgenr8> a UTXO lookup is done directly by tx hash, so that's the sharding approach i've thought about. 08:49 < dgenr8> the grinding idea is interesting but to really scale you need to focus on the services provided to lightweight wallets 08:50 < dgenr8> a lightweight wallet doesn't want to see even 1/256 of the traffic 08:51 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:52 < CodeShark> lookups by txout are probably far more useful than lookups by tx hash 08:54 < CodeShark> at least for thin clients 08:55 < bsm1175321> A lightweight wallet doesn't have to be a shard. It just needs to get all its addresses on the same shard. 08:55 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:56 < bsm1175321> That's going to be required for any sharding proposal. Obviously there are multiple ways to do that. 08:57 < ThomasV> bsm117532: how would that work? 08:57 < CodeShark> are you talking about something like brute-forcing them until you find one in the shard you want? 08:58 < bsm1175321> CodeShark: exactly. 08:58 < bsm1175321> Or you'd have to extend the address to include a shard identifier. 08:59 < CodeShark> doesn't that entail some loss of privacy? 08:59 < bsm1175321> Yes. 08:59 < bsm1175321> I'm not necessarily a *fan* of this idea... 08:59 < bsm1175321> for that reason 09:00 < bsm1175321> I'm interested to hear what Vlad Zamfir has to say: https://scalingbitcoin.org/montreal2015/#schedule 09:01 < tromp__> wasn't he designing the POS system for Ethereum? 09:02 < tromp__> though he doesn't seem to cover that topic in this workshop... 09:05 -!- ratbanebo [~ratbanebo@2a02:1812:1515:2400:5192:8989:785a:b38] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:06 < CodeShark> PoS meaning point of sale or proof of stake? 09:07 -!- RH311ish [~RH311ish@65.78.54.2] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:08 < CodeShark> bsm117532: what's the alternative to such sharding approaches? 09:09 < bsm1175321> I've not heard any other sharding proposals. I'd like to see some. 09:10 < bsm1175321> But if we don't do it, the resources required of a full node grow without bound and the system will collapse. 09:10 -!- ratbanebo [~ratbanebo@2a02:1812:1515:2400:5192:8989:785a:b38] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:11 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:13 < Eliel> I don't see how including a shard identifier in an address would be worse than brute-forcing an address so that it effectively has a shard identifier. 09:15 < bsm1175321> They're functionally equivalent. Resource consumption on the part of the wallet is the only difference. 09:20 < CodeShark> if we still maintain a distinction between "full validator" and "thin client" and just shard the former? 09:20 < CodeShark> then thin clients can request short proofs from multiple "full validators" that cross the sharding boundaries, no? 09:21 < CodeShark> it breaks the p2p model...but perhaps that's inevitable 09:23 < CodeShark> then it's largely reduced to an issue of incentives 09:23 -!- nullbyte [~NSA@193.138.219.233] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:24 -!- bedeho [~bedeho@50-202-37-133-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:28 < Eliel> I don't think it makes sense for everyone to verify everything anyway. fraud proofs should suffice, as long as the system is designed to periodically reward people for doing it. 09:28 < CodeShark> I've grown more and more skeptical of fraud proof approaches 09:29 < Eliel> I think it can work. But only if there's an incentive to try to look for fraud. That's why there should be some kind of a reward available periodically in the form of intentional but harmless fraud. 09:31 < Eliel> but should be indistinguishable from real fraud attempts. 09:32 < CodeShark> that would go some ways towards solving the issues of battle testing and profitability - but it still might be open to "crying wolf" attacks 09:33 < CodeShark> whereby the attacker deliberately commits fraud in a way that becomes too costly to prove 09:34 -!- roxtrongo [~roxtrongo@190-22-194-231.baf.movistar.cl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:34 < Eliel> fraud that is too costly to prove sounds like a design error in the system design. 09:35 < Eliel> I wonder if it'd be possible to create a PoW function out of some kind of fraud and fraud proof battle :P 09:36 -!- roxtrong_ [~roxtrongo@190-22-194-231.baf.movistar.cl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:38 -!- roxtrongo [~roxtrongo@190-22-194-231.baf.movistar.cl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:39 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Quit: Bye] 09:43 < CodeShark> I think someone had done some work suggesting that the fraudsters have an advantage 09:44 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:45 < CodeShark> in that they can manufacture valid transactions and claim fraud...but where it's costly to prove they are valid 09:45 < CodeShark> or something like that - but I haven't gone over the details 09:46 < CodeShark> the idea is that eventually, people just stop paying attention to the fraud claims 09:46 -!- ibrightly [uid113387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-aoeqgebuajrbhszh] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:52 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:54 < Eliel> that sounds more like a badly designed system rather than an inherent problem. 09:59 -!- ratbanebo [~ratbanebo@2a02:1812:1515:2400:5192:8989:785a:b38] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:00 < CodeShark> yeah, I'm not entirely convinced this is a fundamental theoretical limitation 10:00 < CodeShark> but it does seem hard to design a system that doesn't have such weaknesses 10:02 < dgenr8> the term "fraud proof" leads in impossible directions. a lightweight client just needs a way to gain confidence that asymptotically approaches 1 10:02 -!- NLNico [~NLNico@unaffiliated/nlnico] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:03 -!- kmels [~kmels@93.166.151.186.static.intelnet.net.gt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:04 -!- kmels [~kmels@93.166.151.186.static.intelnet.net.gt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:04 -!- ratbanebo [~ratbanebo@2a02:1812:1515:2400:5192:8989:785a:b38] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:05 < CodeShark> I think we can relax the term "proof" - perhaps "argument" is a better term 10:05 < dgenr8> and i'm referring to transactions. what satoshi mentioned was just alerts for invalid blocks which are much lower volume 10:08 < CodeShark> right - but under what incentives model? 10:10 -!- nullbyte [~NSA@198.203.28.43] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:10 < CodeShark> it also seems somewhat fragile in that each "proof" builds upon the assumption that the previous n "proofs" are valid 10:10 < dgenr8> your question is - if a partial node is available that provides security to the network, and has configurably small resource requirements, what if nobody wants to run it? 10:11 < CodeShark> I'm not convinced of the "small resource requirements" part 10:11 < dgenr8> its a hypothetical 10:12 < dgenr8> the existence of fullnodes today suggests that people will want to run it, imho 10:12 < CodeShark> I suppose if the resource requirements were sufficiently small, it could work - but I'd be far more comfortable with a mechanism that can provide more direct incentives 10:14 < Eliel> (which is why I suggested building a system where you can gain a little profit by finding fraud.) 10:15 -!- nullbyte [~NSA@198.203.28.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 10:15 < Eliel> but of course, such system needs to actually reliably have fraud for the incentive to exist. 10:15 < dgenr8> i'm not so sure i want my whole wallet on one shard. i'd rather a bunch of nodes involved in supplying the information 10:16 < CodeShark> most problematic, though, is being able to bound "small resource requirements" adequately 10:16 -!- nullbyte [NSA@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-suzuyikgmaytqyay] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:17 < CodeShark> as technology improves, computational cost goes down - but that's more than offset by the increased costs that come from network growth 10:17 < CodeShark> that's likely to be the case until we achieve saturation 10:18 < CodeShark> and saturation is achieved when supply and demand curves ultimately intersect 10:19 < dgenr8> if lightweight wallet has 12 peers and 6 addresses, it can tell two peers about each address. many individual wallets don't need that many active addresses 10:19 < CodeShark> I also think we should get rid of the term "address" in this context :p 10:19 < dgenr8> its just too easy 10:19 < CodeShark> it confuses the discussion :) 10:20 < CodeShark> the confusion will get even worse when we start talking about routable overlay protocols 10:21 < bsm1175321> @CodeShark yes I was referring to sharding only "full validators". I'm not sure what "thin client" means in this context? Just SPV? 10:22 < CodeShark> basically, most wallets - something like SPV (but I don't really like the term SPV because it is associated with Satoshi's specific tx merkle tree scheme) 10:22 < bsm1175321> The fact is that a shard has to be able to validate a transaction. If it has to query other nodes to get UTXO's it doesn't have, then you haven't solved any problems -- you divided storage at the cost of increased network traffic. 10:23 < bsm1175321> So one way or another, SOME shard has to have ALL the data it needs to validate a single transaction. 10:23 < dgenr8> okay but not broadcast traffic 10:23 < CodeShark> yes, we should think of transactions as atomic state updates - and validators should count on having locally available all the data they need to validate each such update 10:23 < bsm1175321> exactly. 10:24 < bsm1175321> Get rid of the "block" entirely. ;-) 10:24 < dgenr8> doesn't that devolve to being a trusted peer 10:24 < dgenr8> why can't lightweight client validate each input separately 10:24 < CodeShark> the "block" concept's purpose is really about timestamping these updates more than anything else 10:25 < CodeShark> well, also about generating new coins, I suppose 10:25 < bsm1175321> A lightweight client has to have every UTXO being spent to validate it. 10:25 < dgenr8> yep. so it asks for them 10:25 < bsm1175321> CodeShark: a DAG/braid can be well-ordered in time. 10:26 < CodeShark> yeah, it's really about permissionless updates that cannot be reversed 10:27 < CodeShark> blocks commit the state changes and impose a real computational cost to rolling it back 10:28 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@2a02:8108:73f:f6e4:e23f:49ff:fe47:9364] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:29 < bsm1175321> One could mine individual transactions, as well as groups of transactions, to create the DAG/braid. 10:30 < bsm1175321> It requires a separate kind of "PoW notification block" which ties two or more mini-blocks or transactions together. 10:32 < CodeShark> so perhaps make the PoW cost proportional to the number of updates performed? 10:34 < bsm1175321> Yes. Similar to Peter Todd's Tree-Chain idea, you'd end up with more work as transactions are grouped, and you head backwards in time along the block-braid. 10:35 < bsm1175321> I'm still noodling on what those requirements need to be... 10:37 < CodeShark> regarding sharding proposals and stuff like tree chains, most efficient would probably be some sort of nesting whereby deeper levels are more "local" 10:38 < CodeShark> but that also sacrifices privacy 10:38 < CodeShark> at least at a local level 10:38 < bsm1175321> Peter's tree-chain is kind of a combination of sharding and my idea of a block-braid. It also has some fatal flaw that I can't remember right now... 10:38 < CodeShark> haha 10:39 < CodeShark> I'm not really familiar with your block braid idea - and I only have vague sketches in my mind regarding PT's tree chains 10:39 < bsm1175321> Oh...yeah...one can reallocate one's mining power to another shard, I think, and 51% attack it. 10:39 < CodeShark> I've tried to get PT to explain in greater detail, but so far ony have basic glimpses :) 10:40 < CodeShark> oh, right - that does seem like a serious issue 10:40 < bsm1175321> I haven't fully presented the block braid idea beyond what's in the above blog post. 10:40 < bsm1175321> However my idea is exceedingly similar to: http://fc15.ifca.ai/preproceedings/paper_101.pdf 10:49 -!- roxtrong_ [~roxtrongo@190-22-194-231.baf.movistar.cl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:52 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:53 -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@50-78-139-77-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:54 -!- ratbanebo [~ratbanebo@78-23-10-185.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:54 -!- hazirafel [~ufoinc@31.154.92.180] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:55 -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@xd9bf758b.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:58 -!- ratbanebo [~ratbanebo@78-23-10-185.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:02 < nullbyte> bsm1175321: its exciting to even think about starting an implementation of that 11:03 < bsm1175321> I know!!! ;-) 11:04 < bsm1175321> I just started with SolidX and am happy to be able to get paid to put my time into it. :-) 11:08 -!- jasmyn [~j4smyn@50.248.81.66] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:10 -!- nullbyte [NSA@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-suzuyikgmaytqyay] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:11 -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@50-78-139-77-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:12 -!- nullbyte [~NSA@193.138.219.233] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:17 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:22 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:26 -!- laoban [~sid2@unaffiliated/lao-ban/x-8608855] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:38 -!- Tenhi_ [~tenhi@178.18.241.180] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:39 -!- nullbyte [~NSA@193.138.219.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:41 -!- drwin [~drwin@out-nat-33.jes.cz] has quit [] 11:42 -!- nullbyte [~NSA@198.203.28.43] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:47 -!- nullbyte [~NSA@198.203.28.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:48 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:48 -!- ratbanebo [~ratbanebo@2a02:1812:1515:2400:5192:8989:785a:b38] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:53 -!- ratbanebo [~ratbanebo@2a02:1812:1515:2400:5192:8989:785a:b38] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:01 -!- blackwraith [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:03 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:08 -!- nullbyte [~NSA@198.203.28.43] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:13 -!- nullbyte [~NSA@198.203.28.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:14 -!- nullbyte [NSA@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-vesephzcsopziguy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:16 -!- ratbanebo [~ratbanebo@2a02:1812:1515:2400:5192:8989:785a:b38] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:23 -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.46.218] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:27 -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.46.218] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:32 -!- hazirafel [~ufoinc@31.154.92.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:36 -!- distif [~d1st1f@50.248.81.66] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:36 -!- polyclef [~polyclef@208.90.213.198] has quit [Quit: polyclef] 12:37 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:37 -!- ratbanebo [~ratbanebo@2a02:1812:1515:2400:5192:8989:785a:b38] has quit [] 12:41 -!- Fistful_of_Coins [o3u@unaffiliated/o3u] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:47 -!- Newyorkadam [~Newyorkad@wikipedia/Newyorkadam] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:49 -!- hazirafel [~ufoinc@31.154.92.180] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:51 -!- roxtrongo [~roxtrongo@190-22-194-231.baf.movistar.cl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:51 -!- rubensayshi [~ruben@91.206.81.13] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:51 -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@50-78-139-77-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:56 -!- roxtrongo [~roxtrongo@190-22-194-231.baf.movistar.cl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:56 -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.46.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:56 -!- eudoxia_ [~eudoxia@r167-56-37-61.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:57 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-57-50-23.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:59 -!- eudoxia_ [~eudoxia@r167-56-37-61.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Client Quit] 13:00 -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.24.101] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:03 -!- hazirafel [~ufoinc@31.154.92.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:09 -!- Emcy [~MC@cpc3-swan1-0-0-cust996.7-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:09 -!- Emcy [~MC@cpc3-swan1-0-0-cust996.7-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:09 -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:11 -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@50-78-139-77-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 13:17 -!- hazirafel [~ufoinc@31.154.92.180] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:26 -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@50-78-139-77-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:30 -!- srksm [~dnv@162.216.46.39] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:32 -!- roxtrongo [~roxtrongo@190-22-194-231.baf.movistar.cl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:48 -!- hazirafel [~ufoinc@31.154.92.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:53 -!- mjerr [~mjerr@p5B209723.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:57 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: :)] 14:02 -!- hazirafel [~ufoinc@31.154.92.180] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:02 -!- xabbix [~xabbix@unaffiliated/xabbix] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:05 -!- srksm [~dnv@162.216.46.39] has quit [Quit: www.enlabuena.xyz] 14:14 -!- xabbix [~xabbix@unaffiliated/xabbix] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:15 -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@50-78-139-77-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:22 -!- hazirafel [~ufoinc@31.154.92.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:33 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:37 -!- hazirafel [~ufoinc@31.154.92.180] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:42 -!- hazirafel [~ufoinc@31.154.92.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:42 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:45 -!- shen_noe [~shen_noe@104.156.228.131] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:57 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@104-6-36-162.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 15:07 -!- belcher [~user@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:07 -!- bsm1175321 [~bsm117532@38.121.165.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:11 -!- shen_noe [~shen_noe@104.156.228.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:21 < CodeShark> anyone else here presenting in montreal? 15:22 < CodeShark> or is everyone else also too busy with preparations? 15:22 -!- metamarc [~cypher@unaffiliated/agorist000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:30 -!- roxtrongo [~roxtrongo@190-22-194-231.baf.movistar.cl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:31 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:34 -!- roxtrongo [~roxtrongo@190-22-194-231.baf.movistar.cl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:46 -!- Newyorkadam [~Newyorkad@wikipedia/Newyorkadam] has quit [Quit: Newyorkadam] 15:48 -!- kmels [~kmels@93.166.151.186.static.intelnet.net.gt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:48 -!- Newyorkadam [~Newyorkad@wikipedia/Newyorkadam] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:57 -!- Oizopower [uid19103@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uzlospfzuwzwjtzt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:59 -!- yrashk [sid1568@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-aqfreclbxkawpzaw] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:59 -!- mappum [sid43795@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ahwjipeiiiqlhhox] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:00 -!- AnoAnon [~AnoAnon@197.39.255.68] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:00 -!- lomax_ [sid52157@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bdmjcphvkctvbngm] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:00 -!- GoonClooney [sid44280@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fxqktffotgodrand] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:00 -!- AnoAnon [~AnoAnon@197.39.255.68] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:00 -!- Xzibit17 [sid50165@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dzvsfmxpsprfzdfd] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:00 -!- mariorz [sid490@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xuioiitqtoljtihp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:00 -!- yorick_ [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:00 -!- pigeons [~pigeons@94.242.209.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:00 -!- lmatteis [uid3300@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-irajrcaunibifmly] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:01 -!- mikolalysenko [sid34553@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-apoculwdfdihfjpf] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:01 -!- kumavis [sid13576@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rnkpvegkygbdhhit] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:01 -!- pigeons [~pigeons@94.242.209.214] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:01 -!- pigeons is now known as Guest39443 16:02 -!- GoonClooney [sid44280@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xaxckylnspumwxqn] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:02 -!- lomax_ [sid52157@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-buojzeklqskqhyxa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:03 -!- mappum [sid43795@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rpqbvvpnhmrptedm] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:03 -!- yorick [~yorick@ip51cd0513.speed.planet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:03 -!- yorick [~yorick@ip51cd0513.speed.planet.nl] has quit [Changing host] 16:03 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:05 -!- kumavis [sid13576@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cvwqrswlrwjtabry] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:05 -!- yrashk [sid1568@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-auayhcmcvsvfafvy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:06 -!- mariorz [sid490@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nfbbnwijpzfxxtih] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:06 -!- Xzibit17 [sid50165@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gxrruamglbnzeazj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:07 -!- mikolalysenko [sid34553@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bzlnrwehaaoldjma] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:08 -!- lmatteis [uid3300@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jszjrswitiqtsboi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:14 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:21 < tromp__> busy reading https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1177633.0 16:21 -!- roxtrongo [~roxtrongo@190-22-194-231.baf.movistar.cl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:26 -!- c0rw1n is now known as c0rw|zZz 16:27 -!- Londe [~Londe@cpe-104-32-148-17.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:29 -!- Londe [~Londe@cpe-104-32-148-17.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:33 -!- nullbyte [NSA@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-vesephzcsopziguy] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:39 -!- mjerr [~mjerr@p5B209723.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:40 -!- bedeho [~bedeho@50-202-37-133-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:45 < instagibbs> Sigh I probably have thought about treechains more than most but I'm a little burned out on alternative chain structures. Someone tell me if they're worth reading :) 16:46 -!- roxtrongo [~roxtrongo@190-22-194-231.baf.movistar.cl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:47 -!- shen_noe [~shen_noe@162.216.46.129] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:50 -!- CodeShark [~CodeShark@74-216-109-222.dedicated.allstream.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:00 -!- mjerr [~mjerr@p5B209723.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:00 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:08 < midnightmagic> looks like another form of proof-of-stake 17:16 -!- shen_noe [~shen_noe@162.216.46.129] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:17 -!- ratbanebo [~ratbanebo@78-23-10-185.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:23 -!- kmels [~kmels@184.62.151.186.static.intelnet.net.gt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:34 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:35 -!- sausage_factory [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 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kanzure> hash-tree with commutation, use xor of hashes and has a second time instead of just once 20:45 < kanzure> make two copies of CScript instead of having just the one 20:45 < kanzure> lightning network hot wallets ok as long as small denomination btc used, forcelock protocol to subsatoshi amounts for now (maybe) 21:04 -!- kinoshitajona [~sid28@tor-exit.echelon.nsa.network] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:05 -!- kinoshitajona [~sid28@tor-exit.echelon.nsa.network] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:08 -!- roxtrongo [~roxtrongo@190-22-194-231.baf.movistar.cl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:31 -!- foss [~f@cpe-104-32-148-17.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:31 -!- foss [~f@cpe-104-32-148-17.socal.res.rr.com] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 21:58 -!- hsmiths [uid95325@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xtwdoiglfenniqep] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 22:14 -!- frankenmint [~frankenmi@71-222-57-192.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:19 -!- ThomasV 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