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05:45 < Eliel> There are people who want a wallet application where you can create a special bitcoin-address that will, when sent to, automatically resend that to predefined addresses according to predefined percentages. To me, this has the distinct smell of solution that works but is still wrong when looking at the whole picture.
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05:46 < Eliel> So, I was thinking about how to actually _really_ solve the issue. I realized that this kind of percentage split is probably a _very common_ thing people would want to do.
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05:47 < bsm117532> Sounds like a good use for https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script
05:47 < bsm117532> I wouldn't want a centralized, fallible solution for that.
05:47 < Eliel> Is script really able to do something like this?
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05:48 < bsm117532> What is the status if isStandard on mainnet?  Will mainnet accept Eliel's script?
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05:50 < bsm117532> "If you create a redeem script, hash it, and use the hash in a P2SH output, the network sees only the hash, so it will accept the output as valid no matter what the redeem script says. This allows payment to non-standard scripts, and as of Bitcoin Core 0.11, almost all valid redeem scripts can be spent."
05:52 < Eliel> Anyway, what I was thinking of was that this really needs to be supported deeper in Bitcoin than just the wallet. The percentage split logic that is. I mean, as in you specify inputs and list of outputs with percentages rather than a list of outputs with absolute numbers. This would allow storing the the whole output definition to be stored in the blockchain just once and reused later, saving potentially huge amounts of space over time.
05:53 < bsm117532> BTW this is probably better for #bitcoin-dev
05:53 < Eliel> well, I'll agree to move there if someone convinces me that what I want doesn't require a hard fork :)
05:53 < bsm117532> There are script opcodes to do arithmetic.
05:53 < bsm117532> hahaaa ok
05:54 < sipa> bitcoin script cannot observe outputs of the spending transactions
05:55 < sipa> so you't restrict where coins go, only whether they are spendable or not
05:55 < sipa> you also can't observe amounts
05:55 < bsm117532> Thanks sipa
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05:56 < sipa> Eliel: we also don't store anything on the blockchain; the blockchain is a log of authenticated ownership updates, but we only keep it for historical purposes
05:57 < kanzure> we only kee pit because we are really really bad at snarkification so far
05:57 < sipa> the state used for validation is the utxo set
05:57 < kanzure> *keep it
05:57 < bsm117532> Ummm...if it can't see amounts, then what is bitcoin script good for?
05:57 < kanzure> authorization
05:57 < Eliel> sipa: well, s/blockchain/utxo set/ then :P
05:57 < sipa> bsm117532: thinks like ownership (multisig constructrusts, hashlocking, timelocking)
05:57 < bsm117532> Anything else?
05:57 < sipa> Eliel: generally don't want to encourage long-lived utxo entries
05:58 < sipa> bsm117532: who knows?
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05:59 < Eliel> sipa: well, this feature would certainly be bad from a privacy perspective, but I'm pretty sure it'd still see a lot of use and would reduce the size of utxo set for that reason.
05:59 < Eliel> I mean, you could drop it from utxo if they're all spent.
06:09 < bsm117532> Eliel: why doesn't the original sender just make a transaction with multiple outputs?
06:10 < Eliel> bsm117532: convenience. It's easier if you just have to record an address and send to it when you want to do the split.
06:11 < bsm117532> FWIW it's pretty easy to do in Ethereum
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06:21 < gmaxwell> Eliel: you use payment protocol and it should just work.
06:22 < Eliel> gmaxwell: ah, great, I'll have to look into how to use that.
06:23 < sipa> Eliel: i generally disagree that the blockchain needa to be convenient; there can be layers on top to add that
06:24 < Eliel> sipa: I wasn't suggesting that for convenience. I was suggesting it for the efficiency gains.
06:24 < gmaxwell> sipa: 'the blockchain' doesn't even have addresses; so it's not like thats a new thought there. :)
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06:25 < gmaxwell> Eliel: really hard to be more efficient than a transaction with multiple outputs.
06:25 < gmaxwell> (for that)
06:25 < kanzure> i have dumped a bunch of OP_MOXIE references here https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/6677#issuecomment-140741464
06:26 < Eliel> gmaxwell: yes it is, allow defining a transaction with outputs defined as percentages and have a well defined process for converting that into absolute outputs for spending purposes.
06:26 < Eliel> you'll only need to store that once plus the whole sum once for each transaction. Rather than every output for every transaction.
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06:27 < gmaxwell> Eliel: only if you assume you constantly reuse that address... which means you can't do invoice tracking, and which means you're subject to miner redlisting and such which is a systemic risk for the system and privacy harmful to anyone you do business with.
06:29 < Eliel> 15:59 < Eliel> sipa: well, this feature would certainly be bad from a privacy perspective, but I'm pretty sure it'd still see a lot of use and would reduce the size  of utxo set for that reason.
06:30 < gmaxwell> I don't think it's all that rational for the system to give a discount to people who amplify privacy and systemic risk.
06:32 < gmaxwell> (privacy-risk to be clear)
06:32 < Eliel> but yes, it seems I underestimated the privacy-risk part.
06:34 < kanzure> i wonder how far we can stretch "assuming cooperation" in things like "x is extremely scalable as long as everyone cooperates", i want to see a practical demonstration of 100k cooperative people and not necessarily with lightning (presumably a cooperative toy demo can be made that is far easier to implement than the remaining chunks of lightning?)
06:35 < gmaxwell> kanzure: twitch plays pokemon did finish the game
06:35 < kanzure> pfft who needs twitch https://github.com/kanzure/pokemon-reverse-engineering-tools/blob/vba-automation/pokemontools/vba/vba.py
06:36  * jgarzik man-hugs kanzure's archives
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06:37 < bsm117532> Ooooh Moxie!!!
06:37 < kanzure> i think there is someone in the bitcoin community with a forename "moxie", and i keep forgetting who this is....
06:37 < bsm117532> Moxie MArlinspike
06:37 < bsm117532> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moxie_Marlinspike
06:37 < kanzure> thank you
06:38 < BlueMatt> hes really not into bitcoin
06:38 < kanzure> well we can fix that
06:38 < BlueMatt> like, hes /really/ not into bitcoin
06:38 < BlueMatt> yes, he does need some edumacting on the subject, but I'm not sure you're gonna win that battle
06:39 < bsm117532> In Soviet Russia, bitcoin is into you! https://bitcoinmagazine.com/9809/bitcoin-fan-gets-tattoo-public-bitcoin-address/
06:43 < kanzure> jgarzik: i am having trouble figuring out how to organize my idea-list-dump... bookmarks are good but i think i need a second format, preferably on a wiki. not sure how to do.
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06:43 < kanzure> i was thinking of a wiki page like this one, with a one-sentence summary per idea maybe: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/dna/projects/#igem-2014
06:43 < kanzure> (this was a page i also made, except it was after reading about all genetic engineering projects from the igem people)
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07:59 < kanzure> topics that have elicted a "check the logs" response http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/bitcoin/check-the-logs.txt
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08:18 < kanzure> "Short accountable ring signatures based on DDH" http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/643.pdf
08:19 < kanzure> "combining Camenisch’s group signature scheme (CRYPTO 1997) with a generalization of the one-out-of-many proofs of knowledge by Groth and Kohlweiss (EUROCRYPT 2015). Our instantiation yields signatures of logarithmic size e (in the size of the ring) while relying solely on the well-studied decisional Diffie-Hellman assumptions"
08:22 < lmatteis> kanzure: there's a little itty bitty of math in that paper
08:22 < kanzure> "Verifiable member and order queries on a list in zero-knowledge" http://arxiv.org/pdf/1408.3843.pdf
08:24 < kanzure> "Fully dynamic verifiable zero-knowledge order queries for network data" http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/283.pdf
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08:26 < kanzure> accumulators http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/087 http://www.rsaconference.com/writable/presentations/file_upload/cryp-t10-membership.pdf
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08:31 < JackH> this accumulators thing is not explained too well
08:31 < JackH> I dont get its scope
08:31 < JackH> is it proof of existance ?
08:31 < kanzure> thesis on "Verifiable outsourcing of computation" http://www.wisdom.weizmann.ac.il/~oded/PDF/ron-phd.pdf covers pcp stuff and non-interactive proofs of proximity
08:32 < andytoshi> JackH: i'm not aware of a good resource on accumulators. essentially what they let you do is add elements to some set and late prove this was done
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08:32 < JackH> hmm yeah, sounds like it....
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08:34 < andytoshi> i'm not sure how wide the "accumulator" label is. like we usually use that word only when there is some sort of zero-knowledge property (e.g. what zerocash does)
08:35 < andytoshi> but maybe a merkle tree counts as an accumulator? i've never heard it described this way
08:35 < kanzure> i guess this is the summary of "interactive proofs of proximity" http://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/12561354/Interactive%20Proofs%20of%20Proximity.pdf?sequence=1
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08:38 < JackH> yeah it sounds like a merkle tree
08:38 < JackH> but with proof
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08:40 < andytoshi> JackH: well, a merkle tree has proofs of inclusion. they're just not zero knowledge (you have to explicitly say what you're proving exists)
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08:41 < JackH> yes true
08:42 < JackH> its just confusing with the accelerator
08:42 < JackH> errr accumulator
08:42 < JackH> whats up with the paste of all the pdf's kanzure?
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08:42 < andytoshi> yeah, IIRC the security property (formal definition) is really abstruse
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08:43 < andytoshi> JackH: we recently had a "scaling bitcoin" workshop in montreal where we discussed at length our ability to disseminate information
08:43 < JackH> I followed it on IRC and saw some video's
08:43 < andytoshi> JackH: kanzure has been doing a ton of work locating and indexing research ideas. i think he's posting PDFs as he locates them so they'll be in the logs
08:43 < JackH> ahhh
08:44 < JackH> see this is a good idea actually
08:44 < JackH> I was looking at advancements in data compression actually
08:44 < JackH> to see if we could get those blocks down
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08:45 < andytoshi> JackH: there is very little redundancy is blocks unfortunately
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08:49 < kanzure> also a 2014 thesis here about succinct non-interactive arguments http://18.7.29.232/handle/1721.1/93057
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08:49 < kanzure> oh, seems to be mostly focused on linear interactive proofs :-(
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09:02 < kanzure> "Secure sampling of public parameters for succinct zero knowledge proofs" http://www.ieee-security.org/TC/SP2015/papers-archived/6949a287.pdf .. by using a multi-party computation protocol for generating the public parameters. (not sure i understand the "sha256 of zero" comment though)
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09:08 < kanzure> oh cool one of the scipr people did the paper on "rsa key extraction via acoustic cryptanalysis" stuff (tromer) http://cm.1-s.es/cryptome-update-13-1231/acoustic-cryptanalysis.pdf
09:11 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] JackH: tbh i would prefer these pdfs posted to something else like a twitter feed. i feel like they're diminishing the s/n ratio here lately unless there is some specific application to be discussed for any given paper.
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09:15 < kanzure> what, because some of them require trusted setup..?
09:16 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] kanzure: no, that's not it. it's just hard sometimes to figure out what is the topic of conversation when there are a lot of links to papers.
09:16 < kanzure> once you take out "authenticated data structures" there's nothing left here :-)
09:17 < kanzure> andytoshi: what do you make of this one? "Signatures of correct computation" http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.303.8178&rep=rep1&type=pdf
09:18 < bsm1175321> kanzure: can I help you with compiling a list?  I'm organizing a journal club to discuss these topics, so curating a good topic and reference list is important to me: http://blog.sldx.com/announcing-whitepaper-wednesdays/
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09:19 < bsm1175321> (would also be happy to host said list...)
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09:19 < kanzure> bsm1175321: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/bitcoin/bitcoin-selected-bookmarks.2015-09-09.txt
09:20 < bsm1175321> Jeez.  Now that's a list.
09:21 < bsm1175321> this is auto-generated from the irc logs?
09:22 < kanzure> bsm1175321: i think this data set needs to be transformed into a wiki page with (1) descriptive titles, and then (2) 3-4 sentence descriptions, and (3) organized into categories so that better work is placed next to prior inferior work (or prior inferior work can just be deleted??).
09:22 < kanzure> "selectively secure computation" huh... (from that last paper, "Signatures of correct computation")
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09:25 < kanzure> the bookmarks were manually currated
09:26 < andytoshi> kanzure: i won't have the bandwidth to review that this week, i'm sorry
09:27 < kanzure> bsm1175321: those bookmarks were instrumental in the construction of my review of prior scalability proposals that i presented at scalingbitcoin, http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/bitcoin/scalingbitcoin-review.pdf
09:27 < bsm1175321> I was just reading that now.
09:27 < bsm1175321> I noticed you missed my proposal... ;-)
09:27 < andytoshi> kanzure: what is a jot command to import that bookmark list?
09:28 < kanzure> well, that's the wrong format for importing i think.
09:28 < andytoshi> can you post a .json?
09:29 < kanzure> bsm1175321: yes i'm sure i missed things.. i didn't read all -wizards and all -dev irc logs, but i want to eventually.
09:29 < kanzure> bsm1175321: but if you repeat your proposal i'll be sure to document it now
09:29 < bsm1175321> It's #1 on this list: http://blog.sldx.com/three-challenges-for-scaling-bitcoin/
09:30 < kanzure> ah, i bookmarked that page on 2015-09-12 which was after i generated the file
09:30 < kanzure> andytoshi: yeah i have to write some code real quick to make that work, give me a few moments
09:30 < bsm1175321> Yeah sorry I didn't give much lead time before the conference.
09:30 < bsm1175321> But I plan to attend the Hong Kong conference with some implementation tests.
09:31 < bsm1175321> There is a serious paper on converting the blockchain to a DAG: http://fc15.ifca.ai/preproceedings/paper_101.pdf I don't see this in your list either.
09:31 < kanzure> bsm1175321: re: sharding, see http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/sharding-the-blockchain/ and https://github.com/vbuterin/scalability_paper/blob/master/scalability.pdf
09:32 < kanzure> bsm1175321: yes i don't have a bookmark for most papers, because i store them over here http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/ but i'll note that i do have that paper copied there already :-)
09:32 < bsm1175321> We should hound people to get some of these published via the new Ledger journal (e.g. that last one by Vitalik)
09:33 < bsm1175321> A random PDF on a random site doesn't pass my bullshit filter, usually.
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09:39 < bsm1175321> WRT Setting up a Wiki, can we just make a subsection of the bitcoin.it wiki?
09:39 < bsm1175321> Or bitcoinwiki.org.  Who controls these?
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09:40 < bsm1175321>  /join #bitcoin-wiki
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09:43 < kanzure> andytoshi: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/bitcoin/bitcoin-selected-bookmarks.2015-09-09.yaml
09:43 < kanzure> andytoshi: which i generated by adding this to jotmuch http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/bitcoin/jotmuch_yaml_export_by_url.py (sloppy work, but it's effective)
09:44 < kang_> http://www.truthcoin.info/blog/measuring-decentralization/
09:45 < kanzure> bsm1175321: bitcoin itself was a random pdf on a random site
09:45 < bsm1175321> A diamond in a coal mine.
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09:50 < bsm1175321> kanzure: What's your opinion on putting this info on the bitcoin wiki, as opposed to somewhere else?
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09:52 < kanzure> well, i strongly prefer git-based wikis, but i suppose i could be coerced into tolerating mediawiki
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09:57 < bsm1175321> kanzure: What kind of wiki?  I've used many.  I use TiddlyWiki a lot, but don't generally share them.
09:57 < kanzure> this is a wiki- http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/
09:57 < bsm1175321> barebones ;-)
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09:58 < bsm1175321> What software is it running?
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09:59 < kanzure> ikiwiki, git, cgit, piny
10:01 < bsm1175321> I like the idea of a git backend
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10:14 < andytoshi> kanzure: `jot import` wants json not yaml
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10:18 < kanzure> andytoshi: yeah i don't know what the pinboard json format is
10:19 < andytoshi> kanzure: no worries, i can't figure it out either. thx for the bookmarks, i'll find a way to badger them into my system
10:20 < kanzure> looks like the pinboard format is a list of dictionaries with the following keys: tags, href, description, time, extended
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10:25 < nsh> oh, is knowledge being systematised? excellent...
10:26 < bsm1175321> andytoshi: what's your system?  Something private or shared?
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10:29 < andytoshi> bsm1175321: my bookmark system is jotmuch, https://github.com/davidlazar/jotmuch
10:29 < kanzure> bsm1175321: https://github.com/davidlazar/jotmuch
10:29 < andytoshi> which kanzure also uses. for some reason its export and import formats are different
10:29 < kanzure> wow andytoshi was faster with a link than me for once
10:29 < andytoshi> :) i had it open in another window
10:29 < bsm1175321> But that's private, no?  i'm looking to set up something public.
10:29 < andytoshi> bsm1175321: you could make a web frontend without too much trouble
10:29 < kanzure> nobody has produced multi-sentence summaries of all of these links/proposals/ideas
10:29 < kanzure> (yet)
10:30 < bsm1175321> Well, we can start.
10:30 < kanzure> that's the content that was going to be put on a wiki, remember?
10:30 < bsm1175321> So Gitit?  Any complaints about that?  I'll set it up.
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10:31 < bsm1175321> Then I'm going to set up a cron job to mail one link a day to a select set of people and ask them to one-sentence summarize it...
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10:34 < kanzure> yes it's always nice when solutions are just "make someone else solve the problem for me" isn't it.... i'm pretty sure that wont work.
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10:46 < bsm1175321> Heheee
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10:58 < jrayhawk> ikiwiki is sortof a pain in that it's VCS-agnostic; i would expect gitit to be easier to set up and use in that regard
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11:17 < bsm1175321> Well kanzure I have my own set of links and annotations that I don't mind making public.  Not as exhaustive as yours, but collaboration would make it all the more useful.
11:17 < kanzure> ah.
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12:00 < SheffieldCrypto> Hello all, we are looking so a trading system architect to build a system centered around the signals produced from our advanced predictive models, please review our recruitment doc and apply if you feel you are qualified https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mu_E3-TrYqM47at9srR7srBdDCjWq29Ia3y8nGS2n-I/edit?usp=sharing
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12:01 <@phantomcircuit> SheffieldCrypto, pdf or go away
12:02 < deego> hi phantomcircuit: that was a nice, brief talk @ scaling.
12:03 <@phantomcircuit> deego, :)
12:05 < SheffieldCrypto> phantomcircuit>  ah good advice (no one freakin' opens it because they think its a virus), could you recommend a good service ?
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12:07 <@phantomcircuit> SheffieldCrypto, uh google docs will "download as pdf" then put it somewhere
12:07 <@phantomcircuit> also google docs can be configured to auto report who opens the document
12:07 <@phantomcircuit> which im thinking most people dont want
12:07 < kanzure> and also recruiting/off-topic
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12:15 < SheffieldCrypto> PDF version http://pdfsr.com/pdf/recruitment4.pdf
12:15  * nsh smiles
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13:41 < pigeons> yeah really off-topic man
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14:10 < bramc> One thing which should be considered in any hard fork is an improvement to Bitcoin's extension mechanisms. I'm thinking specifically the ability to extend transactions, but I think there are other places which could use it as well.
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15:22 < kang_> In IPFS, how is ordering of versions of content done?
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15:23 < jcorgan> doesn't it use essentially the same model as git?
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15:30 < kang_> So only owners can authorize content.. Wouldn't that mean too much work for example on a high traffic website, where the author needs to sign every change that occurs, say a comment
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15:45 < amiller> jbenet, ????
15:45 < amiller> ^^
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15:46 < jbenet> hey amiller -- thanks. kang_ not always just like git. there's many use cases where you want something different. defining a lot of that now. discuss on #ipfs or the github repos if interested
15:47 < kang_> thanks
15:47 < jbenet> kang_ and no, not all changes necessarily, it depends on the application model. you can just sign roots etc.
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21:49 < amiller> when did the main Bitcoin p2p subsystem, in all its glory, start being called "The Router"?
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22:19 < Luke-Jr> so it would be nice if there was a reliable log-bot here; ideally one that could listen for messages like "!bookmark <foo>" and build a bookmark list we could use for ideas..
22:24 < jgarzik> amiller, hehe
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22:24 < jgarzik> amiller, I've been calling it a border router for a little while now, referring bitcoind built with --disable-wallet
22:25 < jgarzik> *referring to
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--- Log closed Thu Sep 17 00:00:30 2015