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06:12 < kanzure> tor should encourage mobile users to run tor exit nodes for some randomly-picked 20 minutes per day
06:13 < kanzure> mobile phone users that don't feel safe operating an exit node that frequently could be encouraged to offer 20 minutes per 10 days or something
06:14 < kanzure> which i suspect better matches user preferences
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08:07 < Taek> in meatspace, sipa shared a merkle tree construction that I hadn't seen before
08:07 < Taek> you can hide where an element is within a merkle by using xor when you combine elements
08:08 < Taek> typically, when combining branches into a parent, you take H(a || b)
08:08 < Taek> if you take H(a XOR b), you retain the ability to prove that an element is a part of a tree without needing to show whether it's on the left or right
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08:08 < Taek> this enhancement is counterproductive in many cases
08:09 < Taek> but nevertheless pretty cool
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08:09 < Taek> grep-tags: merkle tree, anonymous merkle tree
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08:23 < maaku> does that really work?
08:24 < maaku> i can take any 32-byte hash, and turn it into two 64-byte hashes that xor to the original
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08:48 < kanzure> "Making bitcoin exchanges transparent" http://www.tik.ee.ethz.ch/file/b89cb24ad2fa4e7ef01426d318c9b98b/decker2015making.pdf
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09:28 < da2ce7> Taek, xor would require both sides to be non-equal and non-predictable; wouldn't addition be better?
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09:30 < da2ce7> Bitwise OR halves the key-length.
09:32 < da2ce7> Simple 32bti-wise Addition is my recommendation, as that is order-less, and has no requirement on the leaves being unique.
09:33 < da2ce7> would be fast also.
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09:34 < maaku> da2ce7: XOR is addition modulo 2 ;)
09:35 < crescendo> a while back, there was an excellent bitcoin script stack visualizer.  anyone recall where it is?  by a while back, I mean maybe 2 years
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09:43 < da2ce7> maaku, I stand corrected, according to google XOR and AND run at about the same speed, even with AND's carries.
09:45 < da2ce7> However I still think that 32bit AND is a better choice; since there is no issue with the left and right side being identical.
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09:50 < gmaxwell> please stop with the embarassing armchair cryptography.
09:51 < wumpus> heh.
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10:02 < gmaxwell> (Or at least go actually compute the work required to produce a collission for an attacker that controls both branches under whatever crazy model you want to consider. keeping in mind that the hamming weight of random numbers is has a logit pdf...  though I think noticing that under the logic being used above you could simply replace all the hashes in the interior of the tree with armchair_combin
10:02 < gmaxwell> er() is a red-flag. :))
10:03 < fluffypony> OR go start an altcoin
10:03 < fluffypony> :-P
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10:05 < da2ce7> I thought this was about Tree Signatures, as sipa described here. with OP_CAT.
10:05 < da2ce7> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcQLWeFmpYg
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10:07 < gmaxwell> Actually, no, I'm not going to be driven out by this for the moment.
10:08 < gmaxwell> Yes, the comment sipa might have mentioned this is in key tree. But that is not the point fluffypony was making.
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10:10 < gmaxwell> da2ce7: yourAND construction has a trivial collission vulnerability,  H(a AND A) has the same hash as H(a): e.g. a tree with a duplicate has the same hash as a one shorter tree, and would have a significantly lower cost for other kinds of collissions because you can grind for high hamming weight numbers.
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10:11 < gmaxwell> But the point that I was complaining is that people who aren't interested in pumping out snake oil feel an obligation to actaually analyize the things we use and not just mismash slap togeather a pile of armwave.
10:12 < gmaxwell> And I don't really want to hand out someplace where the stream of discussion goes otherwise,--- for one because either we waste a bunch of time cryptanalyizing a bunch of armwave, or we look stupid by omission for participating here and not critiquing things that are obviously broken.
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10:18 < gmaxwell> I really don't care to argue about it; but I'm not going to hang out here if every time I tune back in there is something totally cringeworthy in the backscroll.  If you're going to do something wild and inadvisable at least spend a few minutes to try to repent by formally analizing it a bit. :)
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10:25 < da2ce7> ok, the grinding for high hamming weight numbers numbers is an attack I didn't realise;  however I assumed the leaves in the tree would be independently also hashed,  ie. H(H(a) + H(a));   I don't see how one can easily pick an 'a' that produces the same hash as H(a).  However.  More importantly.  I want to say that I hold great respect for yourself, and the core development team.  I hate to bother you guys, and my combination of
10:25 < da2ce7>  lack of understanding and poor communication can lead to frustration.
10:28 < da2ce7> now, I understand that an odd-numbered level in a standard tree has a repeated 'a', so you would need to do something different there, (maybe a + 1 instead)?
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10:30 < andytoshi> da2ce7: you need to sit down and prove that any attacker who can attack the CRHF security of your hybrid hash is able to do something impossible (either computationally or statistically)
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10:38 < da2ce7> well I'm off to sleep.  You guys are really the greatest minds on the planet.  I really enjoy reading your work and backlog.  I'm sorry I come across as arrogant or condensing;  this truly isn't my intention.
10:38 < da2ce7> May I please ask when I spout some nonsense, just politely say "you are heading in the wrong direction, maybe you should notice XYZ";  I'll come back saying "you are quite correct".
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10:41 < andytoshi> da2ce7: i encourage you to read (or at least skim) the cyphernomicon to see some of the ethos in the crypto community. also bear in mind that in the bitcoin community there is always more work than people (by several orders of magnitude) which can make things more frustrating than they otherwise would be
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10:55 < jcorgan> one thing is for sure--the more i learn about modern crypto, the less i end up knowing, and the happier i am to rely on people who do :-)
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11:19 < CodeShark> andytoshi: sometimes it's more frustrating when there's more people than work than the other way around :p
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11:20 < CodeShark> At least the other way around there's plenty of opportunity for those who seek it out
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11:22 < CodeShark> More people than work means you have to create circuses and other such stuff to keep people busy
11:24 < amiller> hey, is there a way i can ask whoever is mining testnet to stop for a while? i want to do tests but it doesn't work when blocks come every 20 seconds
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11:39 < adam3us> so ittay eyal's key-blocks ("bitcoin-NG") idea, where miners mine key-blocks that just contain a signing public key and then sign micro-blocks more frequently in-between.  it seems to me that this has a problem, namely that once you have a key-block you could sign double-spending micro-blocks, and not lose 25 btc nor have to do further work to do the attack
11:40 < kanzure> separately-double-spending micro blocks too
11:41 < Luke-Jr> adam3us: well, you could have a rule that proof-of-double-spend-signed voids their subsidy/fees altogether
11:42 < Luke-Jr> it gives you advance knowledge that you can double-spend unconfirmed txns with 100% success temporarily, but if merchants wait for a signed txn (which is now ~instant), it'd maybe be safe
11:42 < adam3us> kanzure: yes that's what i meant - i was presuming an individual micro-block should not contain mutually double-spending transactions, but that different micro-blocks between key-blocks might double-spend each others transactions
11:43 < adam3us> Luke-Jr: yes you could (fraud-proofs leading to forgoing reward)
11:43 < kanzure> adam3us: yesterday there was some further discussion about utxo commitments that you might be interested in reviewing, http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-wizards/2015-09-18.log
11:43 < kanzure> (related to https://gist.github.com/maaku/2aed2cb628024800044d )
11:44 < adam3us> Luke-Jr: it seems to me being able to double spend incrementally at zero-cost is likely more dangerous than having to gamble on failing most of the time (you have to precommit and attempt to do it repeatedly with mining).
11:44 < Luke-Jr> adam3us: but merchants would have zero reason to accept unconfirmed txns
11:45 < kanzure> also, as a throw-away comment, if you get double spending in the microblocks then the security of the system reduces to wait for consensus over the protocol for picking the signers or whatever. the speedup doesn't get you anything except maybe wasting a bunch of people's time or something(?).
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11:47 < adam3us> kanzure: right apples to apples, they claim faster transactions - however they are lower security because there is no forgone mining cost to mining something double-spent. (unless one includes fraud-proof disincentives as Luke-Jr suggested)
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14:24 < Taek> my understanding was that the advantage of NG is that keyblocks propagate the network really fast, which keeps the orphan rate low even if your overall transaction throughput is high
14:26 < gmaxwell> Taek: see the generalized comment I made on orphan rate here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1182855.msg12468526#msg12468526
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14:34 < Taek> Don't high orphan rates also favor centralized mining?
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14:38 < Luke-Jr> Taek: yep
14:38 < gmaxwell> Taek: Why assume the key blocks model doesn't? subsiquent miner can always strip the transactions of the earlier one.
14:42 < Taek> gmaxwell: a miner stripping transactions of an earlier one is at a financial disadvantage: 60% of the txn payout goes to the miner that confirms the microblock, with only 40% going to the miner creating the microblock
14:43 < Taek> (miners over 1/3 hashing power would have incentive, because they have >1/3 chance of getting 100% of txn reward)
14:43 < gmaxwell> Taek: no they're not. :(
14:43 < AaronvanW> gmaxwell: afaik key blocks don't include any transactions.
14:43 < AaronvanW> nothing to strip from them
14:43 < gmaxwell> That fee splitting scheme isn't incentive compatible, it's a trivial wallet upgrade to bypass it entirely, and in doing so pay lower fees.
14:44 < gmaxwell> AaronvanW: They do not, but they authorize the creation of subsiquent blocks which do.
14:45 < gmaxwell> Taek: that fee problem is the same issue that all fee sharing schemes have come up with. E.g. make transactions with an OP_TRUE (or well known private key). and pay fees that way instead. (or via invisible out of band agreements-- as exist today and have existed since 2011)
14:45 < gmaxwell> A rational miner is going to prefer OP_TRUE 'fees' to actual fees for obvious reasons.
14:45 < Taek> grep-tags: fee sharing
14:46 < Taek> (I hope people don't mind if I do this until we've got a better solution)
14:47 < gmaxwell> Taek: No problem. You follow the point?   Things like pay for bigger block schemes have the same problem. :(  maybe it's not totally broken, in that there is some inertia and default power which can prevent bypass.
14:47 < Taek> yeah, makes sense.
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19:06 < psztorc> The NG presentation had fraud-proofs, they were called "Poison transactions"
19:06 < psztorc> slide 30 https://scalingbitcoin.org/montreal2015/presentations/Day1/8-Ittay-eyal-testbed-for-bitcoin-scaling.pdf
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19:15 < instagibbs> psztorc: that's for double-spending but doesn't fix the out-of-band stuff.
19:17 < psztorc> You're saying the attacker keeps the double spend secret?
19:18 < instagibbs> Out of band isn't double-spend. Like gmaxwell said, you can do OP_TRUE or something to ensure miner gets 100% of funds, leaving none for following miner.
19:18 < instagibbs> 40/60 split can't be enforced, it appears
19:19 < instagibbs> err 100% of "fees"
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19:19 < psztorc> very interesting, thanks
19:21 < psztorc> random note: when I explain Bitcoin to very smart people, a suspicious % of them seem to always think that mining elects the next block-maker (not that all are working on the next block at once)
19:24 < CodeShark_> I've had to correct a few writers/journalists on this one
19:26 < CodeShark_> One even was perceptive enough to suggest voting on a hard fork in principle is no diffrent than the way nodes usually vote on transactions
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