--- Log opened Sun Sep 20 00:00:33 2015 00:04 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:12 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 00:15 -!- abdulrehmanbinal [27201ad6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.39.32.26.214] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:18 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@x4d08d0e8.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:18 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@x4d08d0e8.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Changing host] 00:18 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:20 -!- abdulrehmanbinal [27201ad6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.39.32.26.214] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:33 -!- trippysalmon [rob@2001:984:6466:0:cca2:89cf:5e8d:9e38] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:37 -!- roxtrongo [~roxtrongo@190.163.85.105] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:54 < CodeShark_> Hmmm...not happy about adding soft fork thresholds to chain params directly...but perhaps we can use an abstract base class for soft fork thresholds so anyone creating a new alt/sidechain or testnet can inherit from it 00:54 -!- JayDugger [~jwdugger@108.19.186.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:56 < CodeShark_> or perhaps we can just instantiate a map at runtime 00:56 < CodeShark_> oops, should do this in dev... 01:10 -!- trippysalmon [rob@2001:984:6466:0:cca2:89cf:5e8d:9e38] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:23 -!- Newyorkadam [~Newyorkad@wikipedia/Newyorkadam] has quit [Quit: Newyorkadam] 01:31 -!- gielbier [~giel@a149043.upc-a.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:36 -!- gielbier [~giel@a149043.upc-a.chello.nl] has quit [Changing host] 01:36 -!- gielbier [~giel@unaffiliated/gielbier] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:38 -!- roxtrongo [~roxtrongo@190.163.85.105] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:55 -!- shesek [~shesek@77.125.99.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:00 -!- trippysalmon [rob@2001:984:6466:0:cca2:89cf:5e8d:9e38] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:01 -!- gill3s [~gill3s@unaffiliated/gill3s] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:06 -!- trippysalmon [rob@2001:984:6466:0:3018:397a:9ec1:eb23] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:09 -!- bedeho [~bedeho@client-7-154.visitor-network.oxuni.org.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 02:11 -!- shesek [~shesek@77.125.99.86] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:21 -!- dEBRUYNE__ [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:26 -!- trippysalmon [rob@2001:984:6466:0:3018:397a:9ec1:eb23] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:28 -!- orik [~orik@50-46-139-225.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:30 -!- jl2012 [~jl2012@unaffiliated/jl2012] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:34 -!- CodeShark [~CodeShark@cpe-76-167-237-202.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:47 -!- ttttemp [~ttttemp@nb-10350.ethz.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:52 -!- ttttemp [~ttttemp@pc-5305.ethz.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:56 -!- jcluck [~cluckj@pool-108-16-231-242.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:05 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f11db5b.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:13 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vuihqfrqszjmzmgi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:18 -!- orik [~orik@50-46-139-225.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I hear a lot about schnorr, but I'm not really able to figure out why it's so much better - any paper or similar would be great 08:41 < andytoshi> mjerr: schnorr signatures are algebraically simpler and have a security proof; the naive way of computing them is much faster than the naive way of doing ECDSA 08:41 < mjerr> any downsides of using them over ecdsa? 08:41 < andytoshi> mjerr: their algebraic structure lets them be batch-validated, and can also be combined to do multisignatures without increasing their size 08:42 < andytoshi> mjerr: lack of well-vetted implementations; until 2008 there were patents against them 08:42 < mjerr> what does batch-validated mean in our context? 08:43 < andytoshi> mjerr: it means you can take a whole much of ec-schnorr signatures and validate them all at once ... so like you can validate the whole block assuming all EC signatures pass, then do a batch validation on them to check that the block is actually good 08:44 < mjerr> interesting :) do you have anything where I can read up some of the information? 08:47 < andytoshi> hmmm, no, a lot of this is folklore .. one day https://github.com/sipa/secp256k1-paper/blob/master/paper.tex will be it i think, but for now that's empty :) 08:50 < mjerr> :( 08:50 < mjerr> :P 08:57 < andytoshi> mjerr: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/386vh0/borromean_ring_signatures_new_research_by_greg/ has a bit of intuition about how schnorr signatures work 08:57 < maaku> andytoshi: well there's some stuff written up, no? you're security proof that schorr is non-malleable 08:58 < andytoshi> mjerr: ah, as maaku says there is also https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/wizardry/schnorr-mall.pdf 08:58 < maaku> but yeah, I sent mjerr here because I know of no other source to point him to :\ 08:58 < andytoshi> and http://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/p/note-on-blind-signature-schemes.html talks about how they can be blindsigned (it's not clear to me that ecdsa can be blindsigned) 08:59 < andytoshi> mjerr: the equations for ECDSA are (r, s) where r is the x-coordinate of the point kG (k is a secret random nonce), and s = (H(message) + rx)/k 09:00 < andytoshi> this weird use of the x-coordinate of kG, plus the fact that only the message goes into the hash function, make it impossible(?) to prove secure 09:00 < andytoshi> the division by k means that these signatures can't be added, which prevents blinding and efficient multisig 09:00 < andytoshi> the division by k also prevents batch-validation, which is basically adding several signatures with random weights then validating the sum 09:01 < mjerr> what do you mean, it is impossible to prove secure? 09:01 < andytoshi> mjerr: i mean nobody has ever done it, and if you try standard proof techniques you will find you are blocked by one of the things i mentioned 09:01 < andytoshi> mjerr: "proving secure" is a bit of a controversial thing, it means to prove that anyone who can forge a signature can also solve $hard_problem 09:02 < andytoshi> so if $hard_problem (say, solving a random discrete log) is actually hard, then the signatures are unforgeable, given the constraints on the attacker that the proof assumes 09:02 < mjerr> ah so if I would have lots of messages from one party, signed with the same private keys, but received over a long period, I could save lots of space by just adding all signatures? 09:02 < maaku> mjerr: some background -- many crypto systems do not have formal security proofs, or at least useful ones of the sort andytoshi is talking about 09:03 < andytoshi> mjerr: yes ... although you would be unable to prove that any specific signature is actually in the sum 09:03 < mjerr> they just try to make use of some difficult-to-calculate problem, right? 09:03 < andytoshi> so it might not actually be useful to do this 09:03 < andytoshi> mjerr: yeah, usually discrete-log (which i think has a good wikipedia page) 09:04 < kanzure> .wik discrete logarithm 09:04 < yoleaux> "In mathematics, a discrete logarithm is an integer k solving the equation bk = g, where b and g are elements of a finite group." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrete_logarithm 09:04 < kanzure> ((b^k) = g) 09:04 < mjerr> just wanted to say that ^^ 09:05 < mjerr> so these are much more difficult to solve than for example factoring large numbers (thus the lower keysizes vs RSA..) 09:09 < maaku> mjerr: no, it's the same 09:09 < maaku> the key size difference is because of the frequency of prime numbers 09:11 -!- fuc [~fuc@185.22.183.200] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:15 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has quit [Quit: .] 09:18 < kanzure> "deepmix: high privacy bitcoin mixing service" https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1175490.0 (i haven't evaluated this yet) 09:18 < kanzure> oh, it's centralized? nevermind 09:19 < belcher> just use joinmarket , duur 09:19 < belcher> you dont have to hand over your coins to some .onion 09:21 -!- bendavenport [~bpd@63.175.32.2] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:27 -!- Newyorkadam [~Newyorkad@wikipedia/Newyorkadam] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:29 -!- Iriez [wario@distribution.xbins.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:32 -!- Guest10 [~textual@204.28.121.32] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:32 -!- Guest10 [~textual@204.28.121.32] has quit [Client Quit] 09:36 -!- Iriez [wario@distribution.xbins.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:40 -!- Iriez [wario@distribution.xbins.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:47 -!- Iriez [wario@distribution.xbins.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:47 -!- tkiel [~tkiel@ip68-231-91-194.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! 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ZZZzzz…] 17:01 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@2a02:8108:73f:f6e4:e23f:49ff:fe47:9364] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:13 -!- notj [~notj@c-76-119-235-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:13 -!- neha [~textual@c-73-17-151-171.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:17 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:20 < CodeShark> kanzure: we can probably do trustless hub-and-spokes without malleability fixes...but full LN will require it 17:22 -!- x3066b896 [~xd91a4a34@2601:147:4103:2cda:c40d:64e2:92e6:1cba] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:23 < CodeShark> certain things, like outsourcing blockchain vigilance, seem very hard to do without malleability fixes 17:25 < CodeShark> and there are a bunch of really cool things we can start doing once we can build contract "circuits" and only sign later 17:35 -!- JackH [~Jack@host-80-43-143-151.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:46 -!- notj [~notj@c-76-119-235-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I just made it a bit more coherent... 18:21 < rusty> I want to look the "weak block encoding" idea. Where should I get data? I'd really like to be able to reconstruct all blocks which missed by a certain difficulty. Luke-Jr? 18:24 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 18:24 -!- davec [~davec@cpe-24-243-251-52.hot.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:25 -!- davec [~davec@cpe-24-243-251-52.hot.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:25 < Luke-Jr> rustyn: I don't believe that data is anywhere. It would be sizable. 18:25 < Luke-Jr> oh 18:25 < Luke-Jr> hmm, depends on how much of it you need but 18:26 < Luke-Jr> Namecoin's blockchain would have some ;) 18:26 < kanzure> .tell rusty sure i accept patches, https://github.com/kanzure/diyhpluswiki can make it easier to submit but w/e 18:26 < yoleaux> kanzure: I'll pass your message to rusty. 18:26 < Luke-Jr> if you need the full blocks, though, I think the best we can do is setup Eligius to start saving them 18:26 < Luke-Jr> wizkid057: ^ 18:27 < kanzure> .tell rusty re: weak blocks, i think the operant search term for that is "near blocks" 18:27 < yoleaux> kanzure: I'll pass your message to rusty. 18:38 -!- neha [~textual@c-73-17-151-171.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ...sleep] 18:40 -!- notj [~notj@c-76-119-235-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 18:46 -!- belcher [~user@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:49 -!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@244.sub-70-193-66.myvzw.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:53 -!- CodeShark [~CodeShark@cpe-76-167-237-202.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:58 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has quit [Disconnected by services] 18:58 -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@x4d08d75e.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:20 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:34 -!- notj [~notj@c-76-119-235-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:36 -!- notj [~notj@c-76-119-235-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:42 -!- p15 [~p15@91.91.145.64.client.static.strong-tk2.bringover.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:44 < maaku> .tell rusty 'share chains' (a la p2pool) is also the same concept 19:44 < yoleaux> maaku: I'll pass your message to rusty. 19:45 < maaku> kanzure: rusty has a HTLC-based design that only needs the time-lock bips in order to have non-outsourceable lightning (lightning nodes need to be online 24/7) 19:45 < maaku> i have not reviewed this yet 19:46 < maaku> a more practical lightning that lets you outsource cheat detection and response requires bip 62 malleability fixes 19:50 -!- notj [~notj@c-76-119-235-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:52 -!- metamarc [~cypher@unaffiliated/agorist000] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:56 -!- tanath [~tanath@unaffiliated/tanath] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:57 -!- metamarc [~cypher@97.95.172.50] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:57 -!- metamarc [~cypher@97.95.172.50] has quit [Changing host] 19:57 -!- metamarc [~cypher@unaffiliated/agorist000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:01 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…] 20:47 < rusty> kanzure: Thanks! Will refer to "near blocks" from now on. petertodd covered all the essentials two years ago (he also suggested committing to "known but not included" txs, which is a cherry on top IMHO). 20:47 < rusty> maaku: indeed, p2pool uses the same method. But that fact clouds more than illuminates, when you're trying to convince miners to adopt. 20:56 -!- [7] [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:56 -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:56 -!- notj [~notj@c-76-119-235-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:58 < wizkid057> hmm... whats the purpose of storing near-missed blocks? 20:59 -!- notj [~notj@c-76-119-235-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:59 < maaku> rusty: I'm not trying to convince anyone to adopt :) 20:59 < wizkid057> currently dont have anything in place to log full block data for blocks > target 21:00 < rusty> maaku: English imprecision. "s/you're/one is/" ? 21:00 -!- jrayhawk [~jrayhawk@unaffiliated/jrayhawk] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:00 < rusty> wizkid057: http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2013-September/003275.html 21:00 -!- kristjansson [~textual@cpe-108-185-91-54.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 21:01 < wizkid057> interesting 21:01 -!- jrayhawk [~jrayhawk@unaffiliated/jrayhawk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:01 < maaku> wizkid057: lots of reasons including fee estimation as written by peter in linked email 21:02 < wizkid057> wonder what the bandwidth requirements would end up being. 21:02 < maaku> also, possible to make miners preferentially build on bloks that conform to observed shares / weak blocks / near blocks 21:02 < maaku> which provides protection against attacks 21:02 < rusty> maaku: yes, my motivation is propagation speed. 21:03 < rusty> wizkid057: done right, it's minimal. you encode blocks by referring to previous ones. 21:03 < wizkid057> so basically not anything that is anywhere near being implemented 21:04 < maaku> wizkid057: this is -wizards, after all 21:04 < wizkid057> so it is :) 21:04 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 21:05 < wizkid057> well, if there is a need for full block data for near misses, I can probably hack together a patch to save some of Eligius's 21:05 < wizkid057> if it helps test such things 21:08 < wizkid057> I was watching the best-so-far hash for the current round... but it got too depressing seeing it when there were some that were 99.9% of the target difficulty sometimes 21:13 < rusty> wizkid057: that might be useful. The particular question is "what's a decent encoding?". It's more realistic if we have simultaneous near-blocks from multiple pools, particularly since Eligius is the largest deviant as far as mempool policy goes. 21:13 < rusty> wizkid057: I should be able to pull that from p2pool for example. (He says with no idea how their protocol works in practice_ 21:14 < wizkid057> I'll add it to my TODO list 21:18 -!- Newyorkadam [~Newyorkad@wikipedia/Newyorkadam] has quit [Quit: Newyorkadam] 21:25 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:39 -!- c0rw1n is now known as c0rw|zZz 21:43 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:45 -!- ttttemp [~ttttemp@pc-5305.ethz.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:45 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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