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Well one can dis-incentivize centralization and use e.g. amiller's nonoutsourceable puzzles. 09:44 < Taek> heh 09:44 < gmaxwell> So, that kind of approach kills pooling but yet people are very happy to day with completely unauditable cloud mining (even though it could be audited). 09:45 < helo> Taek: proselytize? 09:45 < gmaxwell> So I think it's very likely that the response to non-outsourcable puzzles is just even worse centeralization in the form of cloud mining. :( 09:45 < bsm1175321> My immediate target is to play with drastically increasing the block rate by converting the blockchain to a DAG. 09:45 < gmaxwell> bsm1175321: it's kind of like the story with the traditional finance system: It is not trustless, so people responde to that not by forgoing dealing with banks, but instead by centeralizing banking. 09:45 < bsm1175321> Smaller, more frequent rewards = solo mining. 09:46 < gmaxwell> bsm1175321: Ah. Okay. That idea carried too (relative to propagation delays) far makes the mining process no longer progress free. 09:47 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] gmaxwell: Even in the most simple case, Spreadcoin (which is really kind of a hack), I don't think it worked out to any particular network advantage. 09:47 < bsm1175321> Propagation delays shouldn't matter if I simultaneously get rid of orphans. 09:47 < amiller> tacotime, what do you mean, did spreadcoin end up with just as much pools anyway? 09:47 < bsm1175321> Not sure what you mean by "progress free" 09:48 < amiller> i'm assuming some variation of GHOST works out and makes fast blocks OK, but i'm not that confident yet 09:48 < bsm1175321> SpreadCoin: "To prevent pools each block must be signed with the private key which correspondents to the coinbase transaction" 09:48 < bsm1175321> amiller: yes 09:49 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] amiller: Pooling is possible for it if you have bonded pools, I explained how to do it so that anyone could. But interest waned before someone bothered to implement it I think. But I mean, as to whether or not the network is any less concentrated in any centralized pattern, I think that is the issue. 09:49 < amiller> tacotime, you mean interested waned in Spreadcoin altogether, before anyone implemented bonded pools? 09:49 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] Whether you have a warehouse mining on a pool or solo mining, you still hit centralization. 09:49 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] amiller: As far as I can tell, I haven't checked recently. 09:51 < amiller> it's true that it's entirely possible people will just continue to trust cloud miners without auditing them, regardless of any mechanism we add.... but it's still a bit different - with larger "jackpot" blocks, which is part of my current nonoutsourceable proposal, it's a bit more tempting and destructive for cloud miners to steal 09:51 < amiller> moreso than now 09:51 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] Ah, yeah Spreadcoin is stable in subsidy block to block. 09:52 -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.24.101] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:52 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] If subsidy is unpredictive, the incentives will change and I guess the bond required becomes larger. 09:54 -!- zooko [~user@c-71-196-153-50.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:57 < gmaxwell> amiller: well we know already that huge amounts of money have gone into trusting cloud operations, and even ones that tried getting customers to audit them were unable to get the customers to care. 09:57 < gmaxwell> :( 09:58 < amiller> yeah... at best i think we can make it *somewhat* more tempting for them to steal, but the *extreme* level of blind trust now makes it hard to believe that would work 10:00 < Taek> grep-tags: outsourced mining, non-outsourceable puzzles, cloud mining 10:01 < amiller> also: non-outsourceable puzzles can be composed with other approaches to asic resistance, like memory hard puzzles 10:03 -!- blackwraith [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:08 -!- roxtrongo [~roxtrongo@190-22-166-201.baf.movistar.cl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:10 < bsm1175321> I've also been thinking of adding mining to the p2p relay layer. Don't relay tx's unless they have a small PoW header. This would force all nodes to have mining hardware. 10:16 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:17 -!- jtimon [~quassel@160.28.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:17 -!- MrHodl [~fuc@119.81.248.60-static.reverse.softlayer.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:19 < gmaxwell> bsm1175321: you mean this would prevent nodes from bothering to relay at all and just leave miners with advertised ingress nodes that accept powless txn? :P 10:19 -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.24.101] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:23 -!- rubensayshi [~ruben@91.206.81.13] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:24 -!- JackH [~Jack@host-80-43-143-151.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:25 < fluffypony> gmaxwell: audit them how, out of interest? 10:26 < maaku> fluffypony: "proof of reserve" is probably the search term you are looking for 10:27 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:27 < fluffypony> ah I thought we were talking about auditing their claimed mining power vs. actual 10:27 < amiller> maaku, no, i he means for auditing 'cloud miners' 10:27 < bsm1175321> gmaxwell: That's how it would start, yes. ;-) 10:27 < fluffypony> yes 10:27 < amiller> fluffypony, you could ask them to provide 'shares' showing what kind of blocks they were working on 10:27 < amiller> if you're paying for however many hashes per second, you could ask for shares that show that's how much they're doing 10:28 < fluffypony> amiller: sure, so then they show me a set of shares, N, and then you go ask them for an audit and they show you a set of shares, N...doesn't help unless you and I are talking:-P 10:31 < gmaxwell> fluffypony: e.g. you can put hashes of user identifiers in shares so they are strongly bound. 10:31 < gmaxwell> then I show you your shares, and the binding. 10:31 < gmaxwell> And no talking is needed, unless you're concerned that the party might convince multiple users to use the same identifier. 10:32 < gmaxwell> Even without non-duplication it shows that hashrate exists at all, which would actually have cut out a fair number of fradulent mining operations. 10:32 < fluffypony> yeah 10:33 < fluffypony> the lack of user-care is hard to combat 10:34 < gmaxwell> Sort of a common cognative error. Basically to do business with someone at all you've already convinced yourself that they're above board. If you thought they weren't, you wouldn't touch them with a ten foot poll. 10:34 < gmaxwell> Perhaps parallels with the public health problem of getting people to mitigate the risk of sexually transmitted disease. :) 10:36 < zooko> Sounds like a great public health ad campaign in the works. 10:37 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has quit [Quit: .] 10:37 < zooko> https://xkcd.com/364/ 10:39 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:39 < bsm1175321> Lots of choices in a ten foot poll. 10:40 < fluffypony> bsm1175321: but surprisingly few East Europeans 10:40 < bsm1175321> That's a ten foot Pole. 10:41 < gmaxwell> hah 10:42 < fluffypony> bsm1175321: thatsthejoke.gif 10:42 < bsm1175321> fluffypony: I know, I'm just helping with capitalization. 10:42 < fluffypony> heh heh 10:42 < fluffypony> bsm1175321: that would be Warsaw 10:42 -!- roxtrongo [~roxtrongo@190-22-166-201.baf.movistar.cl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:43 < fluffypony> btw ya'll may enjoy the closing comment on this article: http://www.dailydot.com/politics/bitcoin-anonymity-trr-encryption-tor/ 10:44 < bsm1175321> BTW any comments on TRR itself? This is the first I've heard of it. 10:46 -!- JackH [~Jack@host-80-43-143-151.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 10:46 < wumpus> never heard of TRR either 10:48 -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@50-78-139-77-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:48 < zooko> That sounds very relevant to the current discussion of aiding mix-layer to LN. 10:49 < zooko> Speaking of which, does anyone know if there's any sort of requirements-and-desiderata doc about disclosure-control in LN? I assume not. 10:49 < zooko> I like the last line of that article: "Bitcoin did not respond to a request for comment about TRR.". 10:49 < bsm1175321> I'll add it to the discussion list for Whitepaper Wednesdays: http://blog.sldx.com/announcing-whitepaper-wednesdays/ 10:51 < zooko> bsm117532: sounds awesome. Is it an In Real Life event? 10:51 < bsm1175321> IRL, yes, if you're in New York. 10:51 < gmaxwell> At a glance the TRR thing sounds like the transaction relay stuff we've been talking about for bitcoin core to discourage sybil attacks. I dunno why they wouldn't also run it over tor... except for china. 10:51 < gmaxwell> Anyone know if there is an implementation? 10:52 < fluffypony> zooko: that's the line I was pointing out :) 10:52 < gmaxwell> I was talking to some ethereum people two weeks ago at a conference and suggested that perhaps a high latency tx announcement mixmaster like interface could reasonably be shared by multiple cryptocurrencies (in order to have an even better anonymity set) 10:52 < zooko> fluffypony: aha. :-) 10:53 -!- realcr [~real@bzq-109-67-108-183.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 10:53 < zooko> gmaxwell: intriguing! 10:53 < zooko> gmaxwell: but, for LN's purposes I would expect that they want low latency. 10:53 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-57-98-90.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:53 < zooko> I think it would be good to write these things down, like how much the LN design is going to prioritize low-latency. 10:54 < zooko> I mean the LN+disclosure-control design. 10:54 < gmaxwell> Yes, the LN use I consider steperate. "high latency" also has multiple relevant timescales... e.g. for transaction announcement latences of seconds are still quite high compared to tor. 10:55 < kanzure> er, what latency does tor target? 10:56 < zooko> gmaxwell: ok. I'm focusing on LN (and LN+Zcoin) now. 10:57 < wumpus> tor targets a latency as low as possible given the specified number of hops and average latency between hops 10:57 < wumpus> IIRC very slow relays are deranked 10:59 < kanzure> zooko: lightning stuff might require wallet-to-wallet bip70-style-except-more-communication protocol, beyond lightning-network-specific protobuf-specified messages. 11:00 < zooko> kanzure: hm. 11:00 < kanzure> zooko: er, if you were looking for LN things to do, i mean. 11:00 < kanzure> although i suppose you would probably be better at looking at the onion routing stuff 11:01 < kanzure> wumpus: 11:01 -!- Burrito [~Burrito@unaffiliated/burrito] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:07 < maaku> is there a good standard for general-purpose high-latency messaging? 11:07 -!- kyuupichan [~Neil@ae051180.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:08 < gmaxwell> maaku: SMTP 11:08 < maaku> ugggh 11:08 < kanzure> he said good :-) 11:08 * gmaxwell budabump. 11:08 -!- zooko [~user@c-71-196-153-50.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:08 < kanzure> also there's alt.anonymous.messages see https://ritter.vg/p/AAM-defcon13.pdf 11:11 -!- chmod755 [~chmod755@unaffiliated/chmod755] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:11 < wumpus> kanzure: agreed, a high-latency anonymity network would be great for cryptocurrency transaction relaying, there have been some proposals (even to have a high-latency relay as part of tor), but no implementations at the moment AFAIK. There are some practical issues such as spam control. 11:12 < wumpus> (although those also exist for low-latency networks, for high-latency networks they are worse due to fire-and-forget...) 11:14 < maaku> a possible alternative to moxie? https://github.com/cliffordwolf/picorv32?hn=1 11:18 < bsm1175321> Actually a VM which is implementable in an FPGA would be really interesting, especially if it uses secure computation... 11:18 < maaku> the ISA website : http://riscv.org/ 11:18 < bsm1175321> But there's no lack of VM's out there... 11:19 < wumpus> cliffordwolf is a genius, he wrote his own verilog compiler and synthesis tools for reverse-engineered FPGAs 11:20 < maaku> a size-optimized implementation is good because that minimizes the consensus code overhead 11:20 < wumpus> but there's a moxie implementation for FPGA too, that's not new 11:20 < maaku> an argument for moxie was that it was implementable in a few thousand lines of C, but that appears to be the case with this picorv32 implementation as well 11:21 < maaku> and risc-v is more likely to be supported long-term than moxie 11:21 < wumpus> you could make a picomoxie implementation as well - it's usually a compromise between speed (eg pipelining) and circuit size 11:23 -!- kmels [~kmels@186.64.110.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:24 -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@50-78-139-77-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 11:24 < wumpus> what is also important is the code size, we've managed to make some improvements in that for moxie (eg it was lacking 32x32->64 mult and some carry add logic, this helped a lot in secp256k1) - not sure how RiscV scores in that regard. But anyhow, for speed you'd end up with larger circuits/larger VM, especially if you'd want to hardware accelerate common tasks such as ECDSA verification 11:26 -!- zooko [~user@172.56.9.133] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:30 < gmaxwell> maaku: any idea what the instruction set size is, also what the regularity look like? I'd looked at some RISC-V before and there were a fair amount of corner cases that the emulator had to handle. 11:32 -!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:35 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:37 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-57-98-90.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:37 < wumpus> https://github.com/cliffordwolf/picorv32/blob/master/picorv32.v#L310 to line 363 lists the entire instruction set, of which you can probably ignore the bottom group as they're custom intsructions for irq handling 11:38 -!- zooko [~user@172.56.9.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:38 < kanzure> isn' that the openscad person 11:38 < wumpus> kanzure: yes! 11:40 -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@50-78-139-77-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:40 < kanzure> never was a fan of openscad but lately have been looking at https://github.com/pboyer/verb and https://github.com/whitequark/solvespace 11:41 < kanzure> and opencascade is impossible to decipher http://diyhpl.us/wiki/cad/opencascade/ 11:41 -!- roxtrongo [~roxtrongo@190-22-166-201.baf.movistar.cl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:45 -!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:48 < fluffypony> "ED: Dash is definitely a competitor to Bitcoin. With the Bitcoin project, Satoshi figured out Proof-of-Work and they all stopped working on the core protocol and all of the innovations then happened on the edges of the network. What we did with Dash is experiment with the core, and there's a lot of room for creativity" 11:48 < fluffypony> sorry wrong window 11:53 -!- JackH [~Jack@host-80-43-143-151.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:55 -!- afk11 [~afk11@unaffiliated/afk11] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:57 < wumpus> /kick fluffypony ;) 11:58 < fluffypony> wumpus: well I was quoting it for its hilarious BS value, so there's that :) 12:04 < Taek> I believe I have written up a system that is an improvement to truthcoin 12:04 < Taek> would anyone be willing to proofread it before I post to btt? 12:05 < kanzure> ledger journal style guide http://ledger.pitt.edu/ojs/public/journals/1/AuthorGuide.pdf 12:06 -!- glitch003 [~chris@70-35-46-82.static.wiline.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:10 -!- jtimon [~quassel@160.28.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:10 -!- antgreen` [~user@CPE687f74122463-CM00fc8d24cab0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:12 < amiller> Taek, i'll read it 12:15 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] kanzure: I've never heard of a journal that requires you to do the formatting itself.. usually manuscript submission is separate and the journal itself does the formatting 12:15 < Taek> thanks, pm sent 12:17 < wumpus> my experience is different, all journals I've had to submit to have some kind of style guidelines, usually including a tex style that you have to use 12:18 < gmaxwell> likewise. 12:18 -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@50-78-139-77-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 12:18 < gmaxwell> (I mean likewise w/ wumpus) 12:19 < bsm1175321> tacotime: it's the price we pay for open journals. 12:19 -!- kmels [~kmels@186.64.110.122] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:20 < bsm1175321> the billion-dollar journal industry is not worth their formatting services. 12:20 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] wumpus: Ah, okay. It's probably different for different fields. There were usually manuscript formatting requirements, and word limits. 12:20 -!- afdudley [~afdudley@166.84.136.68] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 12:20 -!- matsjj_ [~matsjj@79.173.166.74] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:20 < bsm1175321> Of course, there are no format requirements for the arXiv. 12:21 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] I've never submitted something to a mathematics/engineering journal, so perhaps that's it. 12:21 < bsm1175321> From what I understand, journals have CS by the balls. 12:22 -!- matsjj_ [~matsjj@79.173.166.74] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:22 -!- MrHodl [~fuc@119.81.248.60-static.reverse.softlayer.com] has quit [] 12:24 -!- matsjj [~matsjj@89.197.31.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:29 < TD-Linux> maaku, I tend to agree, I much prefer risc-v over moxie 12:30 < TD-Linux> it scales up to big cores and is being implemented on hard silicon 12:30 < TD-Linux> neither is a good VM target 12:31 -!- bsm1175321 [~bsm117532@38.121.165.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:34 -!- go1111111 [~go1111111@162.244.138.37] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:38 -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@x4d08a906.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:38 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has quit [Disconnected by services] 12:40 -!- bsm1175321 [~bsm117532@38.121.165.30] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:46 < Taek> grep-tags: risc-v, moxie, vm, picorv32 12:47 < kanzure> "Transaction remote release" http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1509/1509.06160.pdf 12:48 < kanzure> summary: "use onion routing" 12:57 -!- CoinMuncher [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:05 -!- chabes [uid112144@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pcrevtqzvdygnxcd] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 13:05 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:07 -!- afk11 [~afk11@unaffiliated/afk11] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:08 -!- afk11 [~afk11@unaffiliated/afk11] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:08 -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@50-78-139-77-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:08 < gmaxwell> TD-Linux: I think you are using a different defintion of VM target than I would use here. 13:09 < TD-Linux> gmaxwell, do you mean as a target for a VM then? 13:09 < TD-Linux> (err risc-v or moxie being a target rather than a bytecode) 13:10 < gmaxwell> Good VM target in here means that a simple implementation is easy to formally verify-- which means things like an absense of exceptional cases, extensive modes with combinitoric complexity, and confining memory operations to a few setps. It might also mean that an implementation can result in a simple arithemetic circuit (e.g. tinyram). What I think you mean for VM target is more things like JIT 13:10 < gmaxwell> ability? 13:11 < gmaxwell> Seperately in here we're proably also interested in code density (or perhaps code density after compression). Though things like Bitcoin Script likely trounce any of these simple machines. 13:13 < TD-Linux> yeah I guess I was thinking more about things like not having computed jumps 13:14 < TD-Linux> you care about verifying that the vm is correct, not that the program operating in the vm is correct 13:15 < gmaxwell> TD-Linux: right. For "bitcoin script" I think all of these very low level machines are in a sad shape, in terms of formal reasoning about the contract's behavior. We do care about both... but achieving consensus exactness of the VM itself is a strictly higher order priority. 13:16 < TD-Linux> what is the other requirement that makes bitcoin script itself not suitable for this? 13:17 -!- licnep [uid4387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-aafhmhjvrzeyexaa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:18 < gmaxwell> TD-Linux: Basically, for expirementation at least it's super useful to be able to take legacy code, legacy tools, and legacy skills and apply them to a new execution enviroment. E.g. say I want to make a smart contract that pays to the winner of a chess game. Having to go reimplement the move consistency rules from scratch in a totally new enviroment, with not yet existing tools, etc.. not very 13:18 < gmaxwell> fun for expirementation. 13:18 < TD-Linux> ah so it should be a gcc target 13:19 < gmaxwell> Yup. 13:19 < gmaxwell> Or at least easily gcc targetable (via patches or whatnot). Good luck targeting (enhanced) bitcoin script from GCC. :) 13:20 < TD-Linux> ok. I'm still a bit biased towards risc-v then because it has way more implementations (at least 3 different HDL languages even) but I might make a table comparing them 13:21 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:23 < gmaxwell> There are also ~three places where I think cpu simulators are interesting: (1) the implementation of consensus systems themselves. It's very hard to know that the consensus bitcoin core implements is actually the same on different systems. An assurance method we've discussed is moving most of the consensus logic into a bytecoded VM then you only have to be sure that the execution enviroment is co 13:23 < gmaxwell> nsistent. (2) Smart contract system for expiremental usage-- I strongly think a _good_ smart contract system needs powerful facilities for formally reasoning about the contracts.... but that sucks for rapid development, where you want to use existing code. For this you need a very simple, easily to tell its safe _and_ consistent execution enviroment which is gcc targetable. Bonus if it has high i 13:24 < gmaxwell> nstruciton density. (3) Safe portable execution enviroment for off blockchain smart contracts. Similar requirements to (2) but perhaps performance and consistency aren't as important. I'd say for (3) you could use NACL ... except good luck auditing that. 13:26 < gmaxwell> I found moxie after looking for something like tinyram. Tinyram is a little load/store VM designed specifically so that zero knowedlge proofs build using arithemetic circuits checking transcripts of its execution are especially compact. Nice thing about it is that it only has about a dozen instructions. Bad thing is that none of the code for it has been released, and moxie was the nearest thin 13:26 < gmaxwell> g I could find that actually had gcc and gdb patches out there. 13:27 < nsh> argh, very interesting backlog chats again.... 13:27 < gmaxwell> For the above applications (as opposed to the ZKP stuff) the crazy tight restriction on the number of instructions isn't so important, though things like being load/store instead of taking memory operands is very nice for making an easily audited simulator. 13:27 < nsh> do we have a dedicated log surmisingguyye yet? 13:27 < nsh> is that on the agenda? 13:28 -!- matsjj [~matsjj@cpc73684-dals20-2-0-cust891.20-2.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:28 < gmaxwell> nsh: would be nice. not clear how to get there yet. There is talk about creating such a thing. 13:29 * nsh nods 13:30 < nsh> i may try to find some time to run a basic corpus analysis to allow excerpt reference by 'concept' [proxy measured by statistically-improbably-phrases and enumerated cryptographic of blockchain-domain concept tokens) 13:30 < nsh> after that it's mostly a case of crowd-sourcing the separation into wiki articles 13:31 < nsh> but it would have to be done by people at some threshold of comprehension 13:31 < nsh> as a lot of the talk here is way above my head, and i consider myself someone more than passingly interested and more than averagely well-read on the subjects 13:31 < kanzure> by "crowdsourcing" do you mean "make kanzure do it"? who exactly do you think is in that crowd. 13:31 < nsh> yes, that is what i meant 13:31 < nsh> but to be fair, you do better work than most crowds i've met :) 13:32 < nsh> i am always available to be pestered for copyediting though :) 13:32 -!- nomailing [~Thunderbi@ip5f5ae13c.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:34 < kanzure> gmaxwell: not sure whether "index" or "summaries" is higher priority. for an index i think there should be some bip-style number assignment going on. 13:35 -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:35 -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:36 < gmaxwell> I think step 0 is indexing. Thats sort of the raw feed for summaries. 13:36 -!- AnoAnon [~AnoAnon@197.39.252.156] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:37 < kanzure> seems pretty strange when i'm going through my bookmark list to make things like "coinjoin" followed by "some inferior form of coinjoin that was proposed later/earlier" 13:37 < kanzure> *feels pretty strange 13:38 < gmaxwell> Well the main "CoinJoin" post was intentionally watered down from the protocol I discussed in the taint rich thread, specifically because I was trying to get people actually working on the darn stuff. 13:38 < gmaxwell> Figuring that even crappy versions were essential for disrupting the rise of "taint analysis" as a working thing for commercial purposes. 13:40 < kanzure> some tech proposals are underspecified and could reasonably be classified as low signal. not sure whether to include/exclude. if included then decreases signal of overall index. 13:41 -!- AnoAnon [~AnoAnon@197.39.252.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:44 -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.24.101] has quit [Excess Flood] 13:45 < gmaxwell> kanzure: well so I was thinking that the indexing tagging stuff could gain a set of fields to rank things... thats where the TRL talk came in. 13:46 < gmaxwell> Though interesting dimensions are things like viability (according to whatever brillant people have access to rank), clarity of description, centrality of the subject (e.g. is this an important idea that other things are based on)... 13:51 < kanzure> something's still missing, somehow an index is not materializing in front of me. i'll keep thinking. 13:55 -!- neha [~textual@c-73-17-151-171.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:58 -!- NewLiberty_ [~NewLibert@76-255-129-88.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:59 -!- NewLiberty_ is now known as NewLiberty 14:06 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@c-73-202-109-21.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:06 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@c-73-202-109-21.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:06 -!- x3066b896 [~xd91a4a34@2601:147:4103:66f3:c40d:64e2:92e6:1cba] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:07 -!- nomailing [~Thunderbi@ip5f5ae13c.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Quit: nomailing] 14:07 -!- nomailing [~Thunderbi@ip5f5ae13c.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:13 -!- belcher [~user@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:20 -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.24.101] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:21 -!- certee7 [~textual@124-149-119-223.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:29 -!- orik [~orik@50.125.71.245] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:37 -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@50-78-139-77-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…] 15:45 -!- kmels [~kmels@186.64.110.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:47 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:48 -!- certee7 [~textual@124-149-119-223.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:49 -!- CodeShark [~CodeShark@cpe-76-167-237-202.san.res.rr.com] has quit [] 15:49 -!- orik [~orik@50.125.71.245] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:57 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@104-6-36-162.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:57 -!- Dizzle__ [~Dizzle@104-6-36-162.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:59 < maaku> i've achieved a headache by thinking hard 16:00 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@76-255-129-88.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:02 -!- afk11 [~afk11@unaffiliated/afk11] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:05 -!- Dizzle__ [~Dizzle@104-6-36-162.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 16:07 < jgarzik> maaku, One is supposed to beat one's head against _metaphorical_ walls, not real ones 16:07 < jgarzik> ;p 16:16 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:17 -!- gielbier [~giel@unaffiliated/gielbier] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:18 -!- certee7 [~textual@124-149-119-223.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 16:22 -!- Oizopower [uid19103@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-onfnougyzlmlqfpr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:23 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:27 < maaku> mental brain dump regarding script/moxie/risc-v opcodes: having entire instruction spaces that behave as [1 RETURN] (original meaning) allows state-changing soft-fork upgrades 16:27 -!- certee7 [~textual@124-149-119-223.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:30 < gmaxwell> maaku: You mean having pubkeys that somewhere in the middle of execution old systems parse as _RETURN TRUE NOW_? Right. Care must be taken that the execution model allows no captive enviroment which could capture the return. 16:31 -!- prom3th3us [~prom3th3u@unaffiliated/prom3th3us] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:33 -!- CodeShark [CodeShark@cpe-76-167-237-202.san.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:34 -!- CodeShark [CodeShark@cpe-76-167-237-202.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:35 -!- CodeShark [CodeShark@cpe-76-167-237-202.san.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:36 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@2a02:8108:73f:f6e4:e23f:49ff:fe47:9364] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:36 -!- jtimon [~quassel@160.28.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:38 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@76-255-129-88.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:42 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:43 -!- belcher [~user@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:53 < gmaxwell> Anyone in here have access to IAR compiler? I'm interested in knowing if it happily compiles libsecp256k1 and how much its MISRA conformance checking barfs on it (and how sensible the reporting is from it) 16:55 -!- roconnor [~roconnor@host-45-58-253-156.dyn.295.ca] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:01 -!- JackH [~Jack@host-80-43-143-151.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:03 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:08 -!- orik [~orik@50.125.71.245] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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#bitcoin-wizards 23:23 -!- glitch003 [~chris@208.185.52.110] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:23 -!- matsjj [~matsjj@89.197.31.78] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:27 * zmanian gmaxwell: I have access to an IAR compiler. Will try to get an ARM32 build up. 23:33 -!- trippysalmon [rob@2001:984:6466:0:f4b2:3e72:a91b:4c08] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:37 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:39 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:51 -!- gill3s [~gill3s@unaffiliated/gill3s] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:56 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards --- Log closed Wed Sep 23 00:00:36 2015