--- Log opened Sat Oct 10 00:00:52 2015 00:03 -!- rabidus [~lauri.j@uhiainen.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:05 -!- rabidus [~lauri.j@uhiainen.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:05 -!- domyhomework [01886073@gateway/web/freenode/ip.1.136.96.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:09 -!- dstadulis [~dstadulis@c-73-189-234-152.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ZZZzzz…] 00:11 -!- PaulCape_ [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:13 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:27 -!- cholbrow [~cholbrow@blackmain.media.mit.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:28 -!- cholbrow [~cholbrow@blackmain.media.mit.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:31 -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:33 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:37 -!- PaulCape_ [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:48 -!- c0rw|zZz is now known as c0rw1n 00:52 -!- gill3s [~gill3s@unaffiliated/gill3s] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:04 -!- bildramer [~bildramer@p4FE649E1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:11 -!- Keefe [~Keefe@unaffiliated/keefe] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:12 -!- Keefe [~Keefe@unaffiliated/keefe] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:13 -!- STRML [~STRML@unaffiliated/strml] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:14 -!- merlincorey [merlin@nginx/adept/merlincorey] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:14 -!- fluffypony [~fluffypon@unaffiliated/fluffypony] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:15 -!- AdrianG [~User@unaffiliated/amphetamine] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:16 -!- AdrianG [~User@unaffiliated/amphetamine] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:16 -!- Fistful_of_Coins [o3u@162.243.79.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:16 -!- Fistful_of_Coins [o3u@162.243.79.19] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:16 -!- STRML [~STRML@unaffiliated/strml] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:19 -!- merlincorey [merlin@sm.ok.es.nu.gs] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:20 -!- fluffypony [~fluffypon@unaffiliated/fluffypony] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:25 -!- CodeShark [~androirc@cpe-76-167-237-202.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )] 01:25 -!- CodeShark_ [CodeShark@cpe-76-167-237-202.san.res.rr.com] has quit [] 01:25 -!- CodeShark [CodeShark@cpe-76-167-237-202.san.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:27 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:40 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:40 < lmatteis> can anyone point me to research around achieving consensus on tokens that are meant to have economical value. for instance, not a currency but still needs decentralized consensus. 01:41 < lmatteis> sorry, *meant to NOT have economical value 01:58 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f11db5b.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:17 < CodeShark> Luke-Jr: quantum computers only have a quadratic improvement over classical computers in computing hash preimages 02:17 < CodeShark> so if you only know the HASH160 of a public key you still have about 80 bits of security 02:18 < Luke-Jr> CodeShark: in this case, they know the full public key for keys 1..N, but not N+1 02:18 < CodeShark> but if you know the public key you can reverse the elliptic curve multiplication in probabilistic polynomial time 02:18 < Luke-Jr> I don't think they can break N+1, right? 02:18 < CodeShark> O(n^2) 02:19 < CodeShark> you cannot derive the next key in the HD tree without the chain code 02:19 < CodeShark> since it uses an HMAC 02:19 < Luke-Jr> ok, good. that's what I thought 02:23 < CodeShark> but all this is moot if we use ECDSA anyhow ;) 02:23 < CodeShark> or any crypto based on discrete logs 02:24 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:24 < CodeShark> well, the HASH160 thing still gives you 80 bits of security 02:25 < CodeShark> but...there's still a serious problem 02:25 < CodeShark> as soon as you publish a transaction spending the output, others know your public key and can start breaking it 02:26 < CodeShark> so if they can break it before the transaction gets confirmed, they might be able to mine a double-spend 02:30 < CodeShark> if we assume a complete break (where the time to reverse the elliptic curve multiplication is negligible compared to block interval) an ECDSA signature hashed with HASH160 is no better than just a random preimage hash 02:32 < CodeShark> rather, the ECDSA signatures become irrelevant - and the redeemscript might as well just be some random script that returns true no matter what ;) 02:33 -!- bildramer [~bildramer@p4FE649E1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:35 < Luke-Jr> CodeShark: we'd need to commit to transaction hashes 02:35 < Luke-Jr> probably a hardfork 02:36 < CodeShark> not sure I follow 02:36 < Luke-Jr> CodeShark: to spend, you'd make the txn, but keep it private until your txid is confirmed 02:36 < Luke-Jr> and such a transaction would only be valid if the txid had been confirmed in the chain 02:37 < CodeShark> ok, that's what I thought you might have meant - the immediate issue I can think of is how to pay a fee for inclusion of the tx hash commitment (or whether that can be pruned somehow once the tx itself is published) 02:38 < CodeShark> and the other is that offchain protocols completely fail 02:38 < Luke-Jr> fee can easily be part of the new consensus rules 02:39 < Luke-Jr> offchain protocols fail *for ECDSA-based stuff* 02:39 < CodeShark> but how do you pay a fee without presenting a signature immediately? 02:39 < Luke-Jr> the txid-mining format would just commit to a fee 02:39 < CodeShark> but that can be DoS'd pretty easily, no? 02:40 < Luke-Jr> hm, maybe. worst case, no fees 02:40 < Luke-Jr> it's not like it'd be a regular thing 02:40 < Luke-Jr> another option is paying the fee from a secure UTXO 02:41 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Quit: Bye] 02:41 < CodeShark> probably better to just move to quantum-resistant crypto 02:42 < Luke-Jr> this is how we'd make the move if quantum beat us to it 02:42 < Luke-Jr> the outputs wouldn't be to ECDSA keys ;) 02:42 < CodeShark> we could just add another OP_CHECKSIGVERIFY family of op codes using a quantum-resistant scheme 02:43 < Luke-Jr> … 02:43 < Luke-Jr> you're missing the part where existing UTXOs aren't using that opcode 02:43 < CodeShark> oh...then we checkpoint :p 02:43 < CodeShark> lol 02:43 < CodeShark> hmmm 02:43 < Luke-Jr> checkpoint won't help 02:44 < CodeShark> yeah, I get what you're saying 02:44 < CodeShark> well, any UTXOs that reuse scripts that have already been spent would be basically screwed anyhow 02:45 -!- nivah [~linker@210.245.34.191] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:45 < Luke-Jr> CodeShark: of course, but that's unsupported address reuse ;) 02:47 < CodeShark> it would be better to issue a wide advisory for people to move their old UTXOs to new ones BEFORE a QC break ;) 02:48 < CodeShark> do we have any statistics on what % of UTXO are in reused scripts? 02:49 < CodeShark> anyone have a tool that can quickly compute that? 02:50 < Luke-Jr> CodeShark: afaik the only QC-resistant stuff now would be much larger tx sizes 02:51 < CodeShark> yes, it has worse performance and size characteristics...but not too extremely terrible...within practicality 02:51 < Luke-Jr> but not within what we'd want people to switch to prematurely 02:52 < CodeShark> well sure - ECDSA is very attractive in this regard 02:54 < CodeShark> but as opposed to other fancier crypto ideas such as zkSNARKS, quantum resistant signature schemes are probably well within practical limits for today's computers 02:55 < Luke-Jr> sure 02:56 < CodeShark> in any case, breaking discrete log means pretty much all of the currently widely used public key crypto would fail 02:56 < CodeShark> so we probably have other more serious problems to worry about ; 02:56 < CodeShark> ;) 02:56 -!- dEBRUYNE_ [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:58 < CodeShark> also, RSA isn't particularly attractive either ;) 02:59 < CodeShark> compared to ECDSA 02:59 < CodeShark> yet RSA continues to be very widely used 03:02 -!- TBI [~TBI@20.84-48-195.nextgentel.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:04 -!- TBI_ [~TBI@84.48.195.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:11 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:15 -!- coryfields [~quassel@2001:4802:7800:1:6fc4:c486:ff20:1fa] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 03:16 -!- coryfields [~quassel@2001:4802:7800:1:6fc4:c486:ff20:1fa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:20 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:26 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@76-255-129-88.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:33 -!- orik [~orik@50-46-139-225.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja 13:43 -!- Topic set by wumpus [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/wumpus] [Sat Jun 27 01:24:18 2015] 13:43 [Users #bitcoin-wizards] 13:43 [@ChanServ ] [ CodeArtix ] [ go1111111 ] [ jouke_ ] [ nanotube ] [ starsoccer ] 13:43 [ [ace] ] [ comboy ] [ GoonClooney ] [ jrayhawk ] [ neha ] [ stevenroose ] 13:43 [ [d__d] ] [ contrapumpkin ] [ Graet ] [ jtimon ] [ nephyrin` ] [ stonecoldpat ] 13:43 [ [Derek] ] [ Cory ] [ grandmaster ] [ justanotheruser] [ NewLiberty ] [ STRML ] 13:43 [ _whitelogger_ ] [ coryfields ] [ GreenIsMyPepper] [ K1773R ] [ nickler ] [ superobserver ] 13:43 [ a5m0 ] [ crescendo ] [ gribble ] [ kanzure ] [ nsh ] [ SwedFTP ] 13:43 [ AaronvanW ] [ cryptowest ] [ grubles ] [ Keefe ] [ null_radix ] [ Taek ] 13:43 [ adams__ ] [ d9b4bef9 ] [ Guest1235 ] [ King_Rex ] [ OneFixt ] [ TBI_ ] 13:43 [ adlai ] [ damethos ] [ Guest45978 ] [ kinlo ] [ optimator ] [ TD-Linux ] 13:43 [ AdrianG ] [ dansmith_btc ] [ Guest4879 ] [ kisspunch ] [ orik ] [ Tenhi ] 13:43 [ afdudley ] [ dasource ] [ guruvan ] [ koshii ] [ otoburb ] [ Tenhi_ ] 13:43 [ afk11 ] [ davec ] [ Guyver2 ] [ Krellan ] [ paci ] [ TheSeven ] 13:43 [ aj ] [ davout ] [ gwillen ] [ kumavis ] [ PaulCapestany ] [ theymos ] 13:43 [ Alanius ] [ dEBRUYNE_ ] [ harding ] [ kyuupichan ] [ paveljanik ] [ thrasher` ] 13:43 [ alexkuck ] [ devrandom ] [ harding_ ] [ larraboj ] [ penjenayah ] [ throughnothing] 13:43 [ amiller ] [ dgenr8 ] [ harrigan ] [ lclc ] [ petertodd ] [ Tiraspol ] 13:43 [ Anduck ] [ dhafk ] [ harrow ] [ lecusemb1e ] [ phantomcircuit ] [ tripleslash ] 13:43 [ andytoshi ] [ dignork ] [ hashtagg ] [ LeMiner ] [ poggy_ ] [ tromp ] 13:43 [ Apocalyptic ] [ DougieBot5000 ] [ hazirafel ] [ livegnik ] [ poutine ] [ tromp_ ] 13:43 [ artifexd ] [ Dr-G ] [ heath ] [ lmatteis ] [ PRab ] [ ttttemp ] 13:43 [ arubi ] [ drue ] [ helo ] [ Logicwax ] [ prosody ] [ tucenaber ] 13:43 [ azariah ] [ earthris1 ] [ hsmiths ] [ lomax_ ] [ PsychoticBoy ] [ uniken510 ] 13:43 [ badmofo ] [ Eliel ] [ humd1ng3r ] [ Londe ] [ qawap ] [ vonzipper ] 13:43 [ BananaLotus ] [ Emcy_ ] [ huseby ] [ Luke-Jr ] [ Quanttek ] [ warptangent ] 13:43 [ bassguitarman ] [ epscy ] [ ibrightly ] [ luny ] [ rabidus ] [ warren ] 13:43 [ bedeho ] [ eric ] [ iddo ] [ maaku ] [ rasengan ] [ waxwing ] 13:43 [ berndj ] [ ericp4 ] [ indolering ] [ maaku_ ] [ RedEmerald ] [ weex ] 13:43 [ bildramer ] [ espes__ ] [ instagibbs ] [ Madars ] [ roasbeef ] [ wilbns ] 13:43 [ binaryatrocity] [ evoskuil ] [ Iriez ] [ MagikSquirrel ] [ robmyers ] [ wizkid057 ] 13:43 [ bliljerk_ ] [ execute ] [ isis ] [ malte ] [ runeks ] [ wpalczynski ] 13:43 [ BlueMatt ] [ face_ ] [ Jaamg ] [ mappum ] [ rustyn ] [ wumpus ] 13:43 [ bobke_ ] [ Fistful_of_Coins] [ jaromil ] [ mariorz ] [ ryan-c ] [ xaptah ] 13:43 [ BrainOverfl0w ] [ fkhan ] [ JayDugger ] [ Meeh ] [ s1w ] [ xeon-enouf ] 13:43 [ bramc ] [ fluffypony ] [ jbenet ] [ melvster ] [ SheffieldCrypto] [ Xzibit17 ] 13:43 [ brand0 ] [ forrestv ] [ jcorgan ] [ merlincorey ] [ shesek ] [ yang ] 13:43 [ bsm117532 ] [ GAit ] [ jeremias_ ] [ midnightmagic ] [ sl01 ] [ yang_ ] 13:43 [ btcdrak ] [ gavinandresen ] [ jeremyrubin ] [ mikolalysenko ] [ smooth ] [ Ylbam ] 13:43 [ Burrito ] [ ggreer ] [ jessepollak ] [ mjerr ] [ sneak ] [ yoleaux ] 13:43 [ c0rw1n ] [ ghtdak ] [ jl2012 ] [ mm_1 ] [ snthsnth ] [ yorick ] 13:43 [ catcow ] [ gielbier ] [ jlrubin ] [ MoALTz ] [ sparetire ] [ yrashk ] 13:43 [ catlasshrugged] [ gmaxwell ] [ jmcn ] [ mountaingoat ] [ sparetire_ ] [ zmanian ] 13:43 [ cfields ] [ gnusha ] [ joesmoe ] [ mr_burdell ] [ spinza ] [ zwischenzug ] 13:43 [ cholbrow ] [ gnusha_ ] [ jonasschnelli ] [ MRL-Relay ] [ Starduster ] [ zxzzt ] 13:43 -!- Irssi: #bitcoin-wizards: Total of 258 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 257 normal] 13:43 !kornbluth.freenode.net [freenode-info] channel trolls and no channel staff around to help? please check with freenode support: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp 13:43 -!- Channel #bitcoin-wizards created Mon Feb 25 23:24:47 2013 13:43 -!- Irssi: Join to #bitcoin-wizards was synced in 22 secs 13:44 -!- BlueMatt_ [~BlueMatt@mail.bluematt.me] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:44 -!- BlueMatt [~BlueMatt@unaffiliated/bluematt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:44 -!- eric [~ericp4@unaffiliated/ericp4] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:44 -!- ericp4 is now known as eric 13:47 -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:47 -!- [7] [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:49 -!- jeremias [~jeremias@kangasbros.fi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:49 -!- OneFixt_ [~OneFixt@unaffiliated/onefixt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:53 -!- harding [~harding@mail.dtrt.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:53 -!- LeMiner 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