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metamarc [~cypher@unaffiliated/agorist000] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:31 -!- metamarc [~cypher@unaffiliated/agorist000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:36 -!- CoinMuncher [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:38 < instagibbs> what do you use for your LP? Cplex? 04:51 -!- Londe2 [~Londe@cpe-104-32-148-17.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:52 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:52 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 04:53 -!- Londe [~Londe@cpe-104-32-148-17.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:53 -!- azariah [~azariah@Tricholoma.Update.UU.SE] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:55 -!- giel__ [~giel____@a149043.upc-a.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:57 -!- gielbier [~giel____@unaffiliated/gielbier] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:59 -!- TBI [~TBI@154.92-220-180.customer.lyse.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:59 -!- giel___ [~giel____@a149043.upc-a.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:59 -!- giel___ is now known as gielbier 04:59 -!- gielbier [~giel____@a149043.upc-a.chello.nl] has quit [Changing host] 04:59 -!- gielbier [~giel____@unaffiliated/gielbier] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:00 -!- priidu 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ZZZzzz…] 12:02 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:03 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@c-73-202-109-21.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:07 -!- zooko [~user@50.141.117.36] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:08 -!- hazirafel [~hazirafel@176.106.227.34] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:11 -!- notj [~notj@dhcp-18-189-26-135.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:11 -!- Newyorkadam [~Newyorkad@wikipedia/Newyorkadam] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:12 -!- Newyorkadam [~Newyorkad@wikipedia/Newyorkadam] has quit [Client Quit] 12:16 -!- zooko [~user@50.141.117.36] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:18 -!- matsjj_ [~matsjj@81.17.20.98] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:18 -!- zooko [~user@50.141.117.36] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:19 -!- gielbier [~giel____@unaffiliated/gielbier] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:21 -!- TBI__ [~TBI@154.92-220-180.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:25 -!- TBI [~TBI@154.92-220-180.customer.lyse.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:28 -!- Emcy [~MC@cpc3-swan1-0-0-cust996.7-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:28 -!- Emcy [~MC@cpc3-swan1-0-0-cust996.7-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Changing host] 12:28 -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:32 -!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:33 -!- belcher [~user@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:36 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has quit [Quit: .] 12:38 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:39 -!- zooko` [~user@c-73-217-16-2.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:40 -!- CodeShark [~CodeShark@cpe-76-167-237-202.san.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:41 -!- zooko [~user@50.141.117.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:41 -!- zooko [~user@c-73-217-16-2.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:42 < zooko> tromp: want to tell about your Cuckoo Password Hash to earthrise on #leastauthority irc.oftc.net? He's curious about it. 12:43 -!- zooko` [~user@c-73-217-16-2.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:43 -!- zooko [~user@c-73-217-16-2.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:43 -!- zooko [~user@c-73-217-16-2.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:43 < tromp> i need to fix my definition first. the current one doesn't quite correspond to d rounds of trimming 12:44 < tromp> what's his email addr? 12:45 -!- CodeShark [~CodeShark@cpe-76-167-237-202.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 12:46 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:50 -!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has quit [] 12:52 -!- ratbanebo [~ratbanebo@2a02:1812:1515:2400:e980:1925:e047:1128] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:53 -!- ratbanebo [~ratbanebo@78-23-10-185.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:58 -!- notj [~notj@dhcp-18-189-26-135.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 13:01 -!- TBI_ [~TBI@154.92-220-180.customer.lyse.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:03 < zooko> tromp: he suggests that you post to the Password Hashing Competition mailing list by sending to submissions@password-hashing.net 13:03 < tromp> ok, will do as soon as i find a clean formulation 13:04 < zooko> ok. 13:05 -!- TBI [~TBI@154.92-220-180.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:07 < gmaxwell> tromp: for password hashing does the cookoo cycle formulation offer any particular advantage? (for proof of work the fast nearly memoryless validation is an obvious huge win.) 13:08 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:09 < tromp> the main attraction of fast verification is gone as you note. what's left is a deterministic hash function that has an elegantly simple definition and whose efficient computation is very memory intense (repeated updating of random 2-bit counters) 13:12 -!- jeremyrubin [~jeremyrub@biohazard-cafe.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:12 -!- jeremyrubin [~jeremyrub@biohazard-cafe.mit.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:12 < gmaxwell> tromp: K. 13:13 < tromp> btw, my definition amounts to a hash of the bitvector of cuckoo edges that survive d rounds of trimming 13:16 < gmaxwell> I'm pretty disappointed how PHC's closure is panning out. 13:17 < zooko> gmaxwell: what about it? 13:19 < sipa> i googled "phc closure" and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peninsula_Hospital_Center turned up? 13:20 < waxwing> lol 13:20 < gmaxwell> zooko: that it's final but argon2 is still WIP. 13:22 < zooko> gmaxwell: *nod* 13:25 < katu> tromp: i'm not too familiar with cuckoo, but wouldn't fast verification make sense for mnemonics? 13:26 < tromp> what do you mean by mnemonics and how does that relate to password hashing? 13:26 < katu> ie the graph solution is the secret password, server can verify user entered password fast, but would-be adversary would have to crunch slow cuckoo solutions? 13:27 < katu> tromp: think bitcoin mnemonic wallets 13:27 < tromp> hmm, that's a neat idea 13:27 < katu> obviously its not really applicable there, as nobody checks the hash is valid cuckoo (ie can be arbitrary, thus can be arbitrarily bruteforced) 13:30 < tromp> so generating a password becomes very hard, and the harder you make it, the more work attackers face, but verification is always trivial 13:30 < katu> yep 13:30 < tromp> hmm, but you cannot make password harder by difficulty threshold 13:30 < katu> not sure it brings anything over proof of work 13:30 < katu> except memory hardness 13:30 < tromp> only by taking larger instances of cuckoo 13:31 < tromp> so i can make a password that will require attacker to have 32GB of memory 13:31 -!- zooko [~user@c-73-217-16-2.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:32 < katu> tromp: the key idea for this sort of mnemonics is to have short passwords 13:32 < katu> ie for vanilla hashcash user needs to know only nonce as a password 13:32 < katu> (nonce and perhaps some iv) 13:33 < gmaxwell> katu: what you're asking for cannot be done without undermining the utility of the slow kdf. 13:33 < tromp> so you would limit yuourself to shorter cycles, not length 42 but maybe length 6 13:33 < gmaxwell> (as then an attacker can guess and check at high speed) 13:33 -!- ratbaneb_ [~ratbanebo@78-23-10-185.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:33 < gmaxwell> tromp: are you aware of pieter's self-descriptive hardening scheme? 13:34 < gmaxwell> sipa: link? 13:34 < tromp> length 6 gives you 6*32 bits or a little more entropy 13:34 < tromp> no, i am not, gmaxwell 13:34 < katu> gmaxwell: thats why there a is random iv with it as well. take simple hashcash mnemonic. you generate 64bit nonce, and pass generator additionaly generates 32bit PoW. 13:35 < katu> so you 96bit password as a result, and bruteforcing it involves solving the 64bit nonce too. but you're right, i'm still unsure if this brings any benefit at all. 13:36 -!- ratbanebo [~ratbanebo@78-23-10-185.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:37 -!- binaryFate [~binaryFat@94.139.57.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:38 < katu> gmaxwell: what about this: user enters a passphrase, which is used as iv to provide hashcash proof for. initial passgen solves the hashcash. user has to remember his passphrase and the hashcash solution nonce. 13:39 < katu> the point is to use *really* slow kdf, where user provides easy, shortcut solution for the server. 13:39 < sipa> tromp: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102349.0 13:39 < gmaxwell> katu: if the user can _remember_ a cryptographic nonce there is little need to have a streghtened passphrase. 13:40 < katu> gmaxwell: that nonce is quite short, and given user behavior this strikes me beneficial (users pick often weak passphrases, but the PoW nonce prevents it from being easily bruteforced) 13:42 < katu> also, user is allowed to forget this nonce, he'll just have to solve the PoW again. no big deal. the whole point is to offload difficult kdf on the server side. 13:48 -!- adam3us [~Adium@141.8.72.43] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:50 -!- smk [9e557647@gateway/web/freenode/ip.158.85.118.71] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:54 -!- adam3us [~Adium@141.8.72.43] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:57 -!- zooko [~user@2601:281:8001:26aa:a052:7c51:a1e8:65a8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:00 -!- kyuupichan [~Neil@ae053102.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:01 -!- kyuupichan [~Neil@14.3.53.102] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:03 -!- roxtrongo [~roxtrongo@190.163.85.105] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:03 -!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@unaffiliated/king-rex/x-3258444] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:03 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-98-157-219-44.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:04 -!- veleiro1 [~Veleiro@199.254.238.205] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:11 -!- darmou [~textual@c-73-241-146-77.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:12 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:16 -!- darmou [~textual@c-73-241-146-77.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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