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12:00 < kanzure> "Micropayments for decentralized currencies" (more lottery stuff) http://initc3.org/files/micropay2.pdf
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15:35 < bramc> Quiet in here
15:36 < phantomcircuit> bramc, HELLO
15:36 < bramc> Hello Mr. Circuit
15:40 < bramc> Does anybody have an opinion about the reasonableness of requiring the amount of reserved memory for the utxo commitment data structure to be set up front?
15:41 < bramc> Also of interest: Is the set of function being add() remove() is_included() and get_root() appropriate? Is it a good idea for it to allow arbitrary size strings to be included in the set by hashing them first?
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15:43 < bramc> For the patricia tree structure, is it okay to simply pass up things unchanged when there are no alternatives? For example, if there are only two things stored and they share the same longish prefix, the root will still be the hash of them together?
15:45 < bramc> It seems completely appropriate for it to be a set and not a dictionary
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15:59 < phantomcircuit> bramc, i dont see why you'd want to support arbitrary size strings, the caller should have already calculated a hash
16:00 < bramc> phantomcircuit, I could also make it be fixed at hash-size strings. That's never less efficient, just requires the caller do the hashing, which it may have done already.
16:00 < phantomcircuit> bramc, one of the advantages of using a patricia treat is compact proof of exclusion, if you're not merging the prefixes that probably doesn't work
16:02 < bramc> hmm, I'll have to think about that. I think the proofs of exclusion are short anyway
16:03 < bramc> Yeah, they're short anyway: As long as everything is in order, you just need to trace down to two consecutive things for a proof of exclusion
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16:08 < bramc> So the longest a proof of exclusion could be is twice the depth, for something which is between the high point of the low branch and the low point of the high branch
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16:20 < phantomcircuit> bramc, hmm yeah that's true
16:20 < phantomcircuit> not optimally compact but still compact enough for basically any applicaiton
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17:27 < bitcoin-wizards2> adam3us1: Hi, are you adam back?
17:28 < dEBRUYNE__> He is
17:28 < bitcoin-wizards2> thanks dEBRUYNE__
17:28 < bitcoin-wizards2> is he available?
17:28 < bitcoin-wizards2> we agreed to speak a while back
17:28 < dEBRUYNE__> Not sure, better to ask him yourself
17:29 < bitcoin-wizards2> how do you PM here?
17:29 < bitcoin-wizards2> nevermind, i think i figured it out.
17:30 < bitcoin-wizards2> on a more general note
17:31 < bitcoin-wizards2> is everyone here aware of Brian Armstrong's latest message? Brian is Coinbase CEO.
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17:35 < bitcoin-wizards2> Two important links: 1) https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3rejl9/coinbase_ceo_brian_armstrong_bip_101_is_the_best/, 2) https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3rfapk/new_post_by_mike_hearn_appears_to_have_been/
17:35 < bitcoin-wizards2> Specifically, note his endorsement of XT despite the obvious lack of ecosystem support of XT and lack of traction.
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17:37 < kanzure> that shouldn't be surprising considering his previous statements. but why is that -wizards material?
17:38 < bitcoin-wizards2> It seems like a very serious situation, maybe the most explicit statement made by Brian thus far.
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17:39 < bitcoin-wizards2> I'm curious what is going on behind the scenes, and if Core has a response. What is Core doing to retain Brian's support? Brian has said he is fine with Core.
17:39 < bitcoin-wizards2> As long as it does something.
17:46 < katu> bitcoin-wizards2: please try to contain XT shitfest to #bitcoin :)
17:46 < katu> its technically uninteresting, just pure politics
17:47 < bitcoin-wizards2> Okay, but isn't this important?
17:47 < bitcoin-wizards2> Why is everyone behaving so non-chalant?
17:47 < katu> most tech folks practice strict hands off approach
17:48 < katu> and political decisions are very closely hands on :)
17:48 < bitcoin-wizards2> This could lead to Civil War and the end of Bitcoin, practically.
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17:48 < bitcoin-wizards2> I understand, but that ^.
17:48 < katu> bitcoin-wizards2: so?
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17:48 < katu> if bitcoin fails because of politics so be it
17:48 < bitcoin-wizards2> ???
17:48 < katu> we believe it will still prevail based on merit alone
17:49 < katu> bitcoin-wizards2: the whole idea of PoW based consensus
17:49 < bitcoin-wizards2> Well unfortunately the real world involves politics
17:49 < katu> more terahashes decide
17:49 < katu> not people.
17:49 < katu> not politicians.
17:49 < belcher> if bitcoin can be changed because a charismatic leader lobbied some mining pools and wrote some blogposts then its in trouble
17:49 < bitcoin-wizards2> Code is important, but politics is just as important in the real world.
17:49 -!- Nickyo9 [~FoxDay@31.6.14.89] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:49 < Nickyo9> its not romur! bitcoin going to hit 1500$ due to this news!!! coindesk lie to us! http://www.nasdaqtoday.com/Overstock-has-confirmed-that-Nasdaq-is-using-blockchain
17:49 < katu> bitcoin-wizards2: then try to come up with technical solutions how to avoid politics
17:50 < katu> we all know politics is just smoke and mirrors and hate it for that reason
17:50 < katu> we'd better have no politics
17:50 < bitcoin-wizards2> The solution is for Brian to be genuinely engaged by Core.
17:50 < katu> amoral, not moral/immoral.
17:50 < belcher> im sure technical folk will enter the discussion if theres any danger of the consensus forking, luckily we're very far away from that
17:50 < bitcoin-wizards2> I don't understand why Brian would say what he said about XT.
17:50 < bitcoin-wizards2> Charlie Lee didn't expect this either, and he works for Coinbase.
17:51 < bitcoin-wizards2> mods can you ban Nickyo9
17:51 < katu> bitcoin-wizards2: political bickering
17:51 < katu> why do you even care?
17:51 < bitcoin-wizards2> Nickyo9:  just spammed a virus link
17:51 < katu> are you afraid on effect on market?
17:51 < katu> if so, this is not markets channel
17:51 < bitcoin-wizards2> katu I'm afraid because I care deeply about bitcoin for many reasons
17:51 < katu> for what we care, bitcoin price could drop to two cents :)
17:51 < katu> bitcoin-wizards2: most people care only because of their money
17:52 < bitcoin-wizards2> If your opinion represents Core's opinion, then I'm not surprised Brian is going to XT
17:52 < katu> i shush you off because i suspect you of the same. if not, state your case :)
17:52 < bitcoin-wizards2> And maybe everyone else should go to XT.
17:52 < bitcoin-wizards2> Maybe I've been wrong about Core this whole time
17:52 < belcher> this channel is logged and this off-topic talk can be very irritating when searching those logs, so take this somewhere else
17:52 < bitcoin-wizards2> If you guys really are this brain dead to say such things (for what we care price could go to 2 cents)
17:53 < bitcoin-wizards2> Okay, thanks for the help. Later.
17:53 < amiller> bitcoin-wizards2, katu, this whole thing is off topic, elsewhere please?
17:53 < amiller> k
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18:01 < katu> belcher: to turn this incident into something productive, are there some ideas out there to make pooled mining difficult/infeasible?
18:01 < katu> i've poured through kanzure's stash, but found only paper or two on proofs of serially done computation
18:01 < belcher> idk sorry
18:03 < adlai> katu: have you seen amiller's paper?
18:04 < adlai> http://cs.umd.edu/~amiller/nonoutsourceable_full.pdf, discussion at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=309073.0;all
18:05 < amiller> there's also blogposts by selfish mining cornell folkks http://hackingdistributed.com/2014/06/18/how-to-disincentivize-large-bitcoin-mining-pools/
18:05 < katu> adlai: yeah, forgot about pinnochio
18:06 < katu> but serial PoWs struck me as more practical, because those are still easier to verify
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18:14 < amiller> katu, like sequentially hard proofs of work?
18:15 < amiller> katu, there's this http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~mohammad/files/papers/11%20TimeLock.pdf
18:16 < kanzure> "the real world"
18:16 < kanzure> "i am outraged that you don't parrot my narrative"
18:17 < kanzure> politics was never a good idea
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18:33 <@gwillen> kb Nickyo9
18:33 -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [+b *!*@31.6.14.89] by gwillen
18:33 -!- Nickyo9 was kicked from #bitcoin-wizards by gwillen [Nickyo9]
18:33 <@gwillen> oops.
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18:39 < gmaxwell> gwillen: hope you didn't follow that link.
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18:46 < katu> amiller: thanks. yeah, i've seen similiar idea somewhere with pebble graphs, though can't recall which paper was that.
18:46 < katu> ie while such pow is difficult in theory, in practice one can have embarassingly parallel problem which cant be run in parallel because of bandwidth constraints.
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18:48 < katu> amiller: anything where the (very relevant) point on dealing with variance (ie people hate it and thus put up with pools) is discussed?
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18:51 <@gwillen> gmaxwell: no, the 'oops' was for saying "kb" instead of doing "/kb"
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18:56 < IDoTrades> bitcoin going to hit 1500$ due to this news!!! coindesk lie to us! http://www.nasdaqtoday.com/Overstock-has-confirmed-that-Nasdaq-is-using-blockchain
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18:57 <@gwillen> that's a malware link, don't click it
18:57 -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [+b *!*@*31.6.*] by gwillen
18:59 -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [-bb *!*@31.6.14.89 *!*@*31.6.55*] by gwillen
19:00 <@gwillen> for the record, 31.6.0-63 all appears to be dynamic IPs from the same ISP.
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19:29 < archobserver> just what bitcoin needs ... to fail due to malware
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