--- Log opened Sat Nov 14 00:00:25 2015
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14:27 < phantomcircuit> bsm117532, centralization of asic production is probably less of an issue than power is actually
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16:45 < zooko> gmaxwell: I really like what you wrote on -wizards after I parted last time about why people don't treat solo mining as gambling.
16:45 < zooko> I really think you are right that it is a user-experience issue, not an economic issue.
16:45 < zooko> amiller_: also relevant to your interests.
16:46 < zooko>  
16:46 < zooko> If some state lottery offered a scheme where you subscribed and then it would run in the background and eventually someday maybe it would pop up and give you money,
16:46 < zooko>  
16:46 < zooko> If some state lottery offered a scheme where you subscribed and then it would run in the background and eventually someday maybe it would pop up and give you money,
16:46 < zooko>  
16:46 < zooko> I think that would be a stinker.
16:46 < zooko> I mean, nobody would play.
16:46 < zooko> Instead, you get the build-up-and-anticipation-and-reveal cycle, like scratching off the silver coating to reveal the numbers beneath and find out if you won.
16:46 < zooko> If that's right, you could add lottery UX on top of mining, by giving people a button that they can push and then it let it build up anticipation and then tell them that they won/lost...
16:46 < jgarzik> heh
16:46 < zooko> There was recently a phone app for a state lottery. "Jackpocket".
16:47 < zooko> I wonder what the UX is.
16:47 < jgarzik> buy lottery chips (mining chips) at the corner store.
16:47 < gmaxwell> Yes, even things like telling you about your near misses and minting digital "almost block" certificates which you could post and brag about.
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16:47 < zooko> gmaxwell: yeah!
16:47 < gmaxwell> We've talked about this before; but it's never raised to a high enough priority for anyone that anyone has executed on it.
16:47 < gmaxwell> Partially, I think, because it's just a guess that the user expirence plays into this.
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16:48 < gmaxwell> But it's really the only one I have that explained what I've seen.
16:48 < zooko> Yeah, how could we test this idea of ours?
16:48 < zooko> Maybe see how Jackpocket works.
16:48 < kanzure> reviewing scalingbitcoin proposals at the moment. DAGchain seems to be popular topic.
16:48 < zooko> Or other notably successful or notably unsuccessful computerized lotteries.
16:49 < zooko> gmaxwell: amiller has told me about ideas to have *higher* variance in mining. Like one out of every thousand blocks is a 100X payoff, for example.
16:49 < kanzure> bsm117532: would you prefer to hear your own DAGchain work, or someone else's DAGchain work? haha
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16:49 < zooko> Notably with successful lotteries, there are very rare -- like yearly ? -- and exciting events.
16:51 < gmaxwell> zooko: Adam has a whole bag of pet ideas about making sure that mining is slightly negative EV because people won't scale a negative ev task, but they'll gamble or 'buy coins without friction'.  But alone that can't be enough since we see lots of people choosing to not mine even when it's +ev and they can pick their variance (at least anywhere from solo mining to PPS)
16:52 < zooko> Do you mean they won't scale a -EV task, but they will gamble?
16:52 < zooko> And what is "buy coins without friction"?
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16:53 < gmaxwell> Historically, to buy bitcoin you had to either be near a city and willing to meet someone in person; or you had to have a bank account and sign up with some service that wanted a lot of personal info and took days.
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16:53 < gmaxwell> VS you run a program on your computer, and pay a bit more on your power bill.  Or even if you need special hardware, that can be a lot easier than dealing with banking.
16:54 < zooko> Oh, I see.
16:54 < gmaxwell> It's less of an issue today but one of the reasons to mine is just that its a way to get coins. (also potentially the most private way to get coins)
16:54 < zooko> *nod*
16:54 < zooko> Okay, thanks for the thoughtful notes. I'm going for a walk now.
16:56 < CodeShark_> gmaxwell: mining should approach 0 ev assuming friction-free economics...it can only remain +ev for those with early access to more efficient technology
16:57 < gmaxwell> This _used_ to be one of the things that made me worry less about mining centeralization-- that even if pro-scale benefits, power prices, POW non-fairness in the network made small scale mining negative EV, people would still do it because it's still pretty reasonable way to obtain bitcoins; but that hasn't panned out.
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16:57 < gmaxwell> that it wouldn't be negative ev anymore once you consider the other costs.
16:58 < CodeShark_> for the average entry-level user, the amount of bitcoin they can get from pooled mining isn't enough to really drive much excitement and adrenaline
16:58 < CodeShark_> and their chances of hitting the jackpot are astronomical
16:58  * jgarzik hopes mining chips have eaten most of the low hanging fruit in the march down the nanometer scale.  If there is a plateau, mining chips could become more commoditized.
16:59 < gmaxwell> CodeShark_: with p2pool you can pick your difficulty to be anywhere from the p2pool share rate difficulty, to 1/10th the block.
16:59 < CodeShark_> the lower the difficulty, the lower the excitement, though ;)
17:00 < CodeShark_> and p2pool seems to be at a propagation disadvantage
17:00 < gmaxwell> lol no.
17:00 < CodeShark_> ?
17:01 < gmaxwell> It has a signficant advantage historically, and when the rate was higher, enough to make a good comparison, it's orphan rate was less than half of the next runner up.
17:01 < gmaxwell> Every p2pool node implements something like matt's relay network protocol for relaying between them.
17:02 < gmaxwell> We'd chipped away at p2pools' advantages somewhat with improvements in bitcoin core but it's still pretty good.
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17:02 < gmaxwell> Also unlike other pools, the latency sensitive in p2pool makes users either fix their delays, ... or subsudize other users who have. (downside is that it's not really usable with a fair amount of hardware out there)
17:04 < gmaxwell> basically p2pool shares propagate in the p2pool network like blocks do, if your block was going to get orhpaned your share sure as hell will. (30s vs 600s)
17:04 < CodeShark_> what about proposals to incorporate some of p2pool's ideas natively into a blockchain protocol?
17:08 < CodeShark_> would it be practical in any way whatsoever to have a way of choosing your own difficulty/variance/EV parameter...and perhaps even incorporate some of amiller's nontransferrable puzzle ideas?
17:08 < gmaxwell> I think amiller's nontransferable puzzle ideas are not good in reality.
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17:09 < CodeShark_> why's that?
17:09 < gmaxwell> Because they make pooled mining, even the p2pool style, impossible. So the result would very clearly be everyone cloud mining.
17:10 < CodeShark_> but if you can pick your variance/difficulty why would you care?
17:10 < gmaxwell> The preimise of the idea is that people wouldn't because the cloud hosts could rip people off; but this ignores the fact that there does not exist a _single_ provable non-ripoff cloudmining operation, even though there trivally could be.
17:11 < gmaxwell> CodeShark_: because you can only pick so far as there is a communication cost tradeoff.
17:11 < gmaxwell> Which is the main limitation of p2pool.
17:12 < CodeShark_> so with cloud hosts you mean people who rent hashing power? presumably the only way such operations would be profitable is if most renters are losing money
17:13 < CodeShark_> where "rent" is an ambiguous verb in terms of subject/object :p
17:13 < gmaxwell> CodeShark_: paying for hosting is just another cost, you argue that mining seeks 0ev, but thats after the average costs.
17:14 < CodeShark_> point is if someone already has the hardware available for mining, it's only profitable for them to rent it out if mining has -ev
17:14 < gmaxwell> no, because they can have variance preferences.
17:15 < gmaxwell> cloudmining is more general than just renting; I am also trying to be inclusive of mining clubs.
17:15 < CodeShark_> aren't those essentially just pools?
17:16 < gmaxwell> Point being that if you can only get really low variance within trusted boundaries, then lots of funds will flow into them that would otherwise be distributed. (E.g. asicminer shares)
17:16 < gmaxwell> CodeShark_: no, e.g. mining is +ev and more +ev and stabler the bigger you are, so instead of mining you buy shares in MinerCorp.
17:16 < CodeShark_> oh, gotcha
17:17 < CodeShark_> physical pools :)
17:17 < gmaxwell> ya.
17:17 < gmaxwell> Worse than classical mining pools, since at least in theory (if not practice) its easy to vote with your feet with the electronic kind.
17:18 < CodeShark_> but more efficient in terms  of communication cost, no?
17:18 < CodeShark_> also, economies of scale, etc...
17:19 < CodeShark_> easier to get better power rates
17:19 < gmaxwell> yes, and they exist already; and I think are a much bigger concern than the traditional mining pools.
17:19 < gmaxwell> (in terms of risk for the system).
17:19 < CodeShark_> right, so nontransferrable puzzles don't solve this issue
17:20 < gmaxwell> so from a purely technical perspective I think amiller's work is fasciating, but pratically I think it reduces the lesser of our problems with considerable risk of amplifying the worse of them.
17:20 < gmaxwell> At least today you can p2pool and mine profitably with enough income that it's not an insult. :P (assuming you can get the hardware...)
17:21 < bsm117532> kanzure: I want to hear everyone's dagchain work!  ;-)
17:22 < bsm117532> I do really think it's the only way to go.  Hashing out the details at Scaling Bitcoin will be fun.
17:23 < CodeShark_> isn't dagchain essentially git + PoW?
17:23 < bsm117532> After reviewing the relevant literature over the last few days (Bitcoin-NG, weak blocks, Inclusive Blockchain), these alternatives are really quite bad in comparison.
17:24 < bsm117532> CodeShark_: Yes!!!  In fact the subtitle of my paper is the syllogism DAGChain:Blockchain :: git:subversion
17:24 < gmaxwell> funny, I think every dagchain like proposal I've seen in the past has been horrible in comparison to bitcoin -- most actually missing the point entirely, about the advantages strong binding has for common defense, and so on.
17:24 < bsm117532> The analogy of committing from a git repository back to a linear SVN repo is quite a close one.
17:25 < bsm117532> gmaxwell: I've not seen any actual DAGchain proposals except the "Inclusive Blockchain" paper, and I'll talk your ear off about terrible holes in their proposal.
17:26 < gmaxwell> (or even the importance of basic things like fungibility)
17:26 < gmaxwell> bsm117532: kanzure should be able to summon some number of 2011/2012 links.
17:26 < bsm117532> Did the topic come up back then?
17:26 < bsm117532> I've looked, haven't found anything that old.
17:27 < kanzure> still on hangout doing scalingbitcoin reviews
17:28 < kanzure> gmaxwell: i haven't tagged any bookmarks as dagchain.. what terms might have i put these under, if i have seen the 2011-2012 things?
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17:29 < gmaxwell> kanzure: 'fork merging'
17:30 < CodeShark_> the ability to merge forks would be very nice...and the ability to apply intersections of consensus rules, etc...but it seems like a very difficult problem
17:30 < bsm117532> gmaxwell: I've thought a bit about a "merge" for a dag, in analogy to git.  It's an interesting direction but I think not necessary for the first version of a dag.  It could be added later.
17:31 < gmaxwell> bsm117532: in any case the inclusive blockchain paper was mostly trying to address a specific problem in prior work from the second set of ghost papers where the network goodput tends to zero because of redundant data.
17:31 < CodeShark_> forks are easy, merges ar hard ;)
17:31 < gmaxwell> But this problem is more efficiently and completely addressed, I think, by differential encoding in relay; which wasn't something the authors had considered.
17:31 < bsm117532> gmaxwell: That was their flaw, trying to merge dag and ghost.  I see no advantage to the ghost idea when you have a dag.
17:31 < gmaxwell> bsm117532: probably because you're confused. :)
17:32 < gmaxwell> the benefits of ghost are really clear and strong; (it's the costs that are not so nice.. :) )
17:33 < CodeShark_> costs in terms of communication?
17:33 < CodeShark_> or in terms of what resource?
17:33 < bsm117532> You don't need ghost when you have no orphans. You have no orphans without conflicting transactions. And you don't want to mine the other half of a double-spend at all.
17:33 < gmaxwell> communication and vulnerability to strategic mining.
17:33 < bsm117532> (In my dag proposal, conflicting transactions define forks)
17:34 < gmaxwell> bsm117532: perhaps you are forgetting the the purpose of a cryptocurrency is to be a currency, with fungible coins, which can be freely split an merged, and not double spent.
17:34 < bsm117532> gmaxwell: So I don't think I'm confused, I think they are.
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17:34 < bsm117532> gmaxwell: Yes, of course.  I'm not sure what you're getting at?
17:35 < CodeShark_> where it really gets interesting is when we can fork and remerge consensus rules ;)
17:35 < MRL-Relay> [surae] bsm117532 you claim orphans only occur due to conflicting transactions? what about transmission delays on the network and the nonzero probability of two nodes finding blocks at very-nearly-the-same-time?
17:35 < bsm117532> A sidechain could be considered a fork...
17:35 < gmaxwell> if so, then you need a consensus, a global one that settles all conflicts over all coins.
17:36 < gmaxwell> and anyone at any time can produce any number of conflicting transactions, and the users in the network will have totally different ideas of what conflicts exist.
17:36 < bsm117532> surae: If miners find a block at the same time (as defined by normal ordering of the DAG) they split the block reward for it.
17:37 < CodeShark_> if two people disagree over consensus rules, we can either force them to come to a mutual agreement or have both their coins destroyed ;)
17:37 < gmaxwell> and what weight does the succesor two those to blocks have in deciding to accept that graph vs one that forked before that pair of blocks?
17:37 < bsm117532> gmaxwell: that's true in the short term, yes.  As with blocks, you have to wait for confirmation and a long-enough dag tip to emerge.
17:37 < gmaxwell> CodeShark_: not byzantine robust. "LOL, destroy my coins, I don't care! X is the true spend."
17:38 < kanzure> oh fork merging.. hmm.
17:38 < MRL-Relay> [surae] bsm117532 but you still have two blocks with the same parent... so now miners have to keep track of double the number of blocks to validate against double spending for every time the chain splits like a tree...
17:38 < MRL-Relay> [surae] or do people merge blocks by height in their local copy of the blockchain or something?
17:38 < kanzure> oh; lots of sergio lerner stuff
17:38 < kanzure> dagchain stuff: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1177633.0;all
17:38 < gmaxwell> bsm117532: so please, answer my question about the preference of the graphs?
17:38 < bsm117532> surae: blocks have multiple parents in a dag.
17:39 < bsm117532> surae: miners tie together any and all tips with non-conflicting transactions when they mine.
17:39 < bsm117532> (as parents of their block)
17:40 < bsm117532> gmaxwell: One must carefully define a way to evaulate the amount of work in a sub-graph.  This can be done with a bit of statistics and a likelihood function (for example).
17:40 < bsm117532> You can't just count the "length" as bitcoin does.
17:40 < bsm117532> That only works when blocks have an identical amount of work.
17:40 < gmaxwell> bitcoin does not count the length!
17:41 < gmaxwell> (as bitcoin blocks do not have identical work, the difficulty changes)
17:41 < bsm117532> I know. But its evaluation of the work is unsophisticated.
17:41 < bsm117532> The work in a dag subgraph is more complicated.
17:41 < gmaxwell> in any case so you're saying that a chain with the extra split block would have some monotone function more work?
17:42 < bsm117532> gmaxwell: yes it has more work than an equivalent chain with only one block in the same place.
17:42 < gmaxwell> bsm117532: then congrats, thats ghost.  Among its other costs, it is drastically more vulnerable to selfish mining, since you can withold your block at the tip, and if someone manages to announce before you, you still get to share the reward with them.
17:43 < bsm117532> gmaxwell: Ok.  Thanks for the pointer.  I'll put more thought into selfish mining then.
17:43 < bsm117532> I see what you're saying.
17:43 < gmaxwell> I'd like to see that solved, because generally that kind of parallel graph weied work is much better for convergence, at least with honest players.
17:44 < MRL-Relay> [surae] so, i've been reading through bitcoin NG stuff, and i have some questions i would rush to describe as "stupid"
17:44 < bsm117532> gmaxwell: I thought a bit about convergence a while ago, hoping it would be better than asymptotic.  At the time (it was a while ago) I convinced myself it was asymptotic, no enhancement in convergence.
17:44 < MRL-Relay> [surae] if anyone is willing to answer dumb questions about NG, i'm very curious
17:44 < el33th4x0r> MRL-relay: i'm here for another 5 min or so. i can help with NG
17:45 < gmaxwell> if you forbid them from having conflicts (something none of the ghost papers do) then I think there is a trivial attack where a constantly broadcast conflicting txn and concurrently announce to every miner, and now their blocks cannot be merged, and the network's hashpower is dilluted; which can then give me an advantage when I intentionally mine none of these conflicts and thus can be merged wit
17:45 < bsm117532> surae: I've read thorugh it, will try to answer.
17:45 < gmaxwell> h everyone.
17:46 < MRL-Relay> [surae] ok, so... in NG, my understanding is that whoever signed the last key block is now, essentially, a single miner in charge of determining which transactions announced over the next 10 minutes are double spends
17:46 < kanzure> gmaxwell: there is a dagchain proposal incoming from the ghost person
17:46 < MRL-Relay> [surae] is that a really terrible characterization of NG?
17:46 < bsm117532> surae: that's my undestanding.
17:47 < MRL-Relay> [surae] hmm ok
17:47 < gmaxwell> [surae]: I think it would be more correct to say which valid transactions are accepted. Something being a double spend or not is not something the miner can control.
17:47 < el33th4x0r> not quite. whoever signed the last block verifies and serializes the transactions until the next key block, but other nodes also check to make sure that the transactions are well-formed (e.g. not double-spends).
17:48 < bsm117532> gmaxwell: one possibility for the DAG is to replace the p2p layer with it, which would remove your attack. Why should I mine your freely broadcast spam/attack transactions?
17:48 < gmaxwell> In a normal blockchain system a double spend is an impossiblity by the rules. What miners are doing is resolving which spend to include in order to uphold those rules.
17:48 < MRL-Relay> [surae] gmaxwell: sure, sure, invalid transactions always include double spends, but not contrary, i get it. el33th4x0r: also sure, sure... everything has to be verifiable by other parties, of course
17:48 < el33th4x0r> great, we're all on the same page
17:48 < gmaxwell> bsm117532: how do you distinguish them from any other transaction?
17:48 < MRL-Relay> [surae] ok so i find that interesting because it sort of reverts the usual blockchain system
17:49 < gmaxwell> bsm117532: are you just suggesting that you must mine to transact at all?
17:49 < bsm117532> gmaxwell: You can't distinguish spam/attack transactions from any other.  But if I only accept mined transactions in the p2p layer, I increase the cost to attackers.
17:49 < bsm117532> gmaxwell: Yes.  Everyone must mine, at least a little bit.
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17:49 < bsm117532> (it's one possiblity -- I'm not entirely convinced of it)
17:50 < gmaxwell> There are also several mined transaction proposals. My recollection is that they usually suffer the error of making mining potentially very progressfull.
17:51 < gmaxwell> E.g. if you have a bunch of hashpower you can mine best by privately mining a whole bunch of high work transactions privately..
17:51 < gmaxwell> Bah, stupid that we didn't figure out selfish mining from that; it's the same issue I think.
17:54 < kanzure> Madars: so we're getting a trustless snark in bitcoin by the time you land in hong kong, right?
17:54 < el33th4x0r> MRL-Relay: I'm going to step out for dinner. If you have questions, no matter how silly they may seem, don't hesitate to contact me and Ittay. We're co-authors on the NG paper.
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17:59 < kanzure> bsm117532: wouldn't your dagchain suffer from double spend bloat?
17:59 < MRL-Relay> [surae] el33th4x0r: i was going to ask more questions, and I just ended up reading through the white paper
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18:01 < bsm117532> kanzure: Yes. One should stop tracking double spend tips once they've fallen behind a reasonable "# confirmations"-like threshold WRT another tip.
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18:03 < MRL-Relay> [surae] what I find so interesting about NG is that you revert the usual order of events: in bitcoin, you have the miner announcing "i saw these transactions, and they were good." in NG, you have miners announcing "it's my turn to keep and announce a running ledger of good transactions for the next few minutes." It's like the difference between the
18:03 < MRL-Relay> intervals [a,b) and  (a,b].
18:03 < kanzure> sounds like double spending would cause taint of dagchain children... e.g. even if you didn't see all the transactions that were in the other dagchain sibling.
18:04 < bsm117532> gmaxwell: re: selfish mining. Selfish mining is a consequence of game theory regarding the fact that only one miner can get the block reward. I'm going to propose that all dag blocks in a non-conflicting subgraph receive a reward proportional to the work expended.  Since miners can't exclude each other, I don't think selfish mining works. (But I will investigate more on that, thanks again)
18:05 < bsm117532> kanzure: why would you not see all the tx in a sibling?
18:06 < kanzure> because you were busy mining your own sibling
18:07 < kanzure> dagness is only w.r.t parents?
18:07 < bsm117532> surae: That reversal is actually very common in the distributed computing literature (e.g. PAXOS, Raft).  But it makes the leader an easy target for an attacker. The paper talks about the "leader" actually being a key, which could be distributed, but I think this is a weak argument.  ex-post-facto block publication is better.
18:08 < bsm117532> kanzure: I'm confused.
18:09 < bsm117532> Nodes would only attach parents that they had all the tx for, and could verify there were no conflicting transactions.
18:10 < MRL-Relay> [surae] well, the possibility that an attacker starts approving invalid copies of his buddy's transactions on the fly is arguably less dangerous than the possibility that an attacker approves of an invalid historical copy of the blockchain; if an attacker is approving invalid transactions on the fly, unless he controls several key blocks in a row, his
18:10 < MRL-Relay> attempt to be a jerk will eventually run aground of the rest of the network doubting the invalid s
18:10 < kanzure> cutoff at "network doubting the invalid s"
18:10 < MRL-Relay> [surae] network doubting the invalid sequence of transactions, right?
18:11 < MRL-Relay> [surae] sorry about that! :P
18:12 < MRL-Relay> [surae] i mean, when the next person finds the the next key block, are they implicitly agreeing to the latest key block's latest microblock? a miner should be able to point to older blocks and be like "that was the last valid one I saw, someone has been doing something funky for the past few blocks"
18:13 < MRL-Relay> [surae] the hash of the last valid microblock they observed and the last key block associated with that valid microblock is presumably included in the hash target nonce game
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20:36 < gmaxwell> I am amused by the model train software here (see bottom) http://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/NXSYS,_Signalling_and_Interlocking_Simulator having a more robust disclaimer on it then I've ever seen on cryptographic software.
20:40 < gwillen> gmaxwell: I see you, too, have been reading about the computerization of the New York subway system
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22:06 < bramc> In my ongoing merkle set data structure drama, I've decided in my ridiculous Python reference implementation when reorganizing a block I won't put it into an intermediary Pythonic set of data structures, I'll just make a copy of the original block and use it in line. I'll probably make the implementation recursive out of convenience though. Dunno if C compilers can unroll those things.
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22:14 < gmaxwell> GCC can turn some very limited kinds of recursion into iteration... to python implementations ever do that?
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22:27 < bramc> No Python has a policy of not optimizing tail recursion. I'm not concerned about the Python performance here, just wondering if on the port to C someone will have to do some hackety hack loop unrolling. It's probably too ugly for me to do it in the proof of concept.
22:28 < bramc> Given my past experience my brain thinks in either extremely old school C or modern Python. When I implement things meant to be ported it winds up being a bizarre mix of the styles.
22:30 < kanzure> if you want to cheat then you can just steal c implementation details from python
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