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06:28 < bsm117532> gmaxwell: that disclaimer is probably related to this bizarre software patent case: https://lwn.net/Articles/181261/
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07:40 < amiller_> re: nonoutsourceable puzzles....   <gmaxwell> The preimise of the idea is that people wouldn't because the cloud hosts could rip people off; but this ignores the fact that there does not exist a _single_ provable non-ripoff cloudmining operation, even though there trivally could be.
07:40 < amiller_> i think in reality the nonoutsourceable idea *necessarily depends on -EV mining*
07:41 < amiller_> cloudmining is trivialy "provably non-ripoff" because they pay out in trickles, and they earn money in trickles
07:41 < amiller_> gmaxwell> zooko: Adam has a whole bag of pet ideas about making sure that mining is slightly negative EV because people won't scale a negative ev task, but they'll gamble or 'buy coins without friction'.  But alone that can't be enough since we see lots of people choosing to not mine even when it's +ev and they can pick their variance (at least anywhere from solo mining to PPS)
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07:42 < amiller_> i didn't now about that, i'd be really interested to hear about that bag of pet ideas
07:42 < amiller_> people *can't* pick their variance, at least not to the extent i'm talking about
07:44 < zooko> Lots of people played Satoshidice, right? One could define an altcoin whose mining process fit under the same economics and UX as Satoshidice's economics and UX, couldn't one?
07:44 < amiller_> what i'm interested in is outside the range of [solo mining, pps]
07:46 < amiller_> zooko, yeah, and the variance of satoshidice was/is significantly higher than 25btc per shot
07:47 < amiller_> what i'm proposing is to model the reward structure after whatever bigass state lotteries do... sometimes there's a $500M jackpot! way bigger than a bitcoin block
07:47 < amiller_> the premise is that state lotteries are a $50B/year industry, and whatever they are doing is pretty effective at recruiting participants
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07:48 < zooko> amiller_: Did you catch the part about the hypothesis that UX separately from economics is an important factor?
07:48 < zooko> amiller_: ever seen those studies of fMRI of gamblers?
07:48 < zooko> Anticipation-and-reward mechanic?
07:49 < amiller_> zooko, yeah.... i don't see why it's "separate" though... to me by UX you're evoking something like the visual interface of the client software, and that doesn't really inform the design of the protocol
07:50 < amiller_> but actually the anticipation-reward *is* part of the economics of it, if it predictably affects participation decisions, so i dont see why you'd call it separate
07:50 < zooko> amiller_: well...
07:50 < zooko> *thinks*
07:51 < zooko> I imagine a cryptocurrency mining distribution which has identical economic distribution to something popular, like a lottery or Satoshidice.
07:51 < zooko> And I'm imagining that nobody plays the mining game. They all pool instead to get a different distribution.
07:51 < zooko> And I'm imagining that the first and most important difference in the two is that you have to take an action in order to roll the Satoshidice, whereas you can passively leave your client running to play the mining game.
07:52 < zooko> So if that were true, then a variant of Satoshidice which automatically plays for you and just reports to you when you win would be just as unpopular as solo mining.
07:52 < zooko> And all of that airy dream in my imagination is predicated on idential payoff distributions.
07:53 < zooko> And that is partly informed by some studies I glanced at years about the brain activation in gamblers,
07:54 < zooko> and how if they get a reward unprompted, it didn't light up their pleasure/addictions centers
07:54 < zooko> nearly as much, as if they got an anticipation: YOU MIGHT GET A REWARD ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THIS DOOR!, followed by that reward.
07:54 < zooko> *That* really got them off.
07:55 < amiller_> zooko, it would be easy to build a mining rig where you had to push a button every so often to keep playing... i don't see how to turn that into a protocol constraint though
07:55 < zooko> *nod*
07:55 < amiller_> zooko, so, lotteries have consolation prizes, and i believe that's a critical part of their design
07:56 < zooko> Hm.
07:56 < zooko> Unfortunately I have to go, now.
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08:14 < kanzure> er, why do they have consolation prizes anyway? winning $1 surely doesn't have a big/any effect.
08:15 < zooko> Why do you think that?
08:16 < zooko> Nevermind, I've *really* got to go now. :-)
08:16 < sipa> people need to regularly feel they win 'something', i guess
08:16 < sipa> otherwise they stop playing
08:17 < zooko> I just want to emphasize that "$1 sure doesn't have a big/any effect" is almost certainly wrong, and that sort of reasoning is a common way to reason incorrectly about this stuff.
08:17 < zooko> See "behavioral economics".
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08:24 < kanzure> pow difficulty acceleration makes it unlikely to be able to award small satoshi amounts without spiraling out of control; but if there's some good argument for a 10e-12 satoshi amount as valuable to someone... perhaps it should be considered. but dunno.
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08:33 < jgarzik> kanzure, if you are minting colored coins right out of the gate, you attach significant external value to a satoshi
08:34 < kanzure> the only part of that i understand is "minting colored coins". can you explain the rest? heh
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08:36 < jgarzik> kanzure, colored coins are a good argument for a 10e-12 satoshi amount being valuable to someone
08:37 < jgarzik> kanzure, and that includes miner payouts, for a situation where a miner is creating and distributing colored coins from a coinbase transaction.
08:37 < kanzure> so proposal is someone would be pegging a colored coin to pow hashrate acceleration and satoshi BTC? but everyone's value would evaporate quite rapidly due to mining depreciation.
08:38  * jgarzik wasn't thinking pegging
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08:38 < kanzure> but yes would solve the "how to get small amounts of value to new participants" issue... .so i guess i'm moving the goal posts.
08:38 < jgarzik> Just systems that deal with small satoshi amounts in general
08:38 < jgarzik> kanzure, that's what wizards is for :)  moving goalposts
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14:12 < jrayhawk_> It'd be nice to integrate PGP and Bitcoin so you can do something like revocable deposit tied to identity verifications and, instead of tracking caring about shortest trust path, start caring about highest-minimum-value trust paths.
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14:17 < jrayhawk_> Which solves the 'generate a dangerous copy of the strong set using cloned 32-bit hashes' problem, the 'identity sigs are so cheap that anonymous signing happens because nobody cares' problem, and the 'nobody wants to deal with the social inconvenience of revocation' problem.
14:18 < jrayhawk_> Something a sidechain would be suited for.
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14:30 < nwilcox> jrayhawk: Are you proposing something like trust assertions have a cost imposed so that the trust graph is more costly to manipulate?
14:31 < jrayhawk> A cost that's revocable with the trust certification, yes.
14:31 < nwilcox> I see.
14:33 < nwilcox> Well, I could see how people who like WoT might be into that. Personally, I consider WoT to be not very relevant, because I believe it makes some fundamental UX / psychology mistake.
14:33 < nwilcox> I could be wrong though.
14:33 < nwilcox> eg: I personally have never relied on WoT for anything PGP related.  Instead I just do OOB verification with point-wise contacts, or rely on people to mail me their friends pubkeys, etc...
14:34 < jrayhawk> I'm guesing a pretty big percentage of the code running on your computer is both signed and not indepdendently OOB-verified.
14:35 < jrayhawk> If Linux, PGP, if others, x509.
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14:37 < jrayhawk> It's what enables e.g. fully independent software mirrors to exist.
14:37 < gmaxwell> no one verfies almost anything.
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14:38 < gmaxwell> I know this because I do verify all code that I download. And I'm often unable to go beyond a circular level of verification where it verfies with the key posted at the same place as the files.
14:39 < gmaxwell> including, at times, high profile things like openssl (I've had to ask them to fix this...), Fedora linux, etc.
14:39 < jrayhawk> Yeah, it'd be nice if some verification feature got integrated into HTTP/2 or SPDY.
14:39 < jrayhawk> So that fuckups would be real obvious.
14:39 < gmaxwell> Libreboot (which is specifically marketed to people who might be targets of state level survailence)...
14:40 < gmaxwell> well the https model results in having to have keys online at all times on a well known publicly reachable server, considering the state of system security this isn't a receipy for success. :)
14:40 < jrayhawk> Yeah.
14:41 < jrayhawk> Spending ten minutes browsing through https://www.reddit.com/r/xss/ is ample demonstration that https is no substitute for codesigning.
14:42 < gmaxwell> well it's also not for another reason: no transferable proof.
14:42 < jrayhawk> That'd be nice, too.
14:42 < gmaxwell> Part of where code signing security comes from is not because you trust the source, its because you trust other people will review and if they find the source gave you bad code they can prove it to the world.
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14:47 < jrayhawk> I suppose my model would probably result in a lot of centralization on CA-like authorities; "pay us 12mbtc to exchange 5mbtc trust certifications both ways because we're a top-5 cross-signer".
14:49 < jrayhawk> Which would then have disproportionately low incentives to revoke.
14:49 < jrayhawk> Hmm.
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14:51 < jrayhawk> Being able to burn btc on revocation ("I hate them *this* much!") would be a strong distrustability signal, but it's not clear how that should figure into path scoring.
14:51 < kanzure> have you looked at fidelity-bonded stuff and fraud proof stuff?
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14:52 < kanzure> http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg01786.html
14:52 < kanzure> http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/message/30531383/
14:52 < kanzure> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=146307.0
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14:55 < jrayhawk> jrayhawk@richardiv:~$ curl -v http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/message/30531383/ 2>&1 | grep '< HTTP'
14:55 < jrayhawk> < HTTP/1.1 403 Forbidden
14:56 < kanzure> that's sourceforge for you
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14:57 < jrayhawk> is there a mirror
14:57 < kanzure> internet archive only has nov5 403 error too, haha
14:57 < kanzure> there is a mirror but the mapping between emails hasn't been figured out yet
14:57 < kanzure> er, between urls
14:58 < kanzure> can we convince sourceforge to turn on the mail archive? there's a lot of links floating around to important sourceforge-hosted emails..
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--- Log closed Mon Nov 16 00:00:26 2015