--- Log opened Tue Nov 17 00:00:27 2015
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00:54 < gmaxwell> [OT] Yubico has a 20% off 'for github' users; with the 20% off their products are.. well still stupidly overpriced (actually the u2f only products are not too terrible; but who wants a smartcard that can't do pgp-- and the new yubi4 finally do 4kilobit keys)
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01:06 < kinlo> gmaxwell: do you know anything cheaper than yubico ?
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01:08 < kinlo> in the end, you don't pay their devices, you pay for their r&d and since they don't have any expensive lock-in contracts for licences/software to make their devices work, they need to earn their money some other way...
01:08 < gmaxwell> for u2f only there are now a bunch of vendors with $9 parts, though I don't know if they're as robust as the yubico parts (which have historically been pretty robust)
01:08 < kinlo> yeah, but the yubico devices are nice things that can do much more then just u2f
01:10 < gmaxwell> Yes, (well yubico now has a u2f only device that costs $18)
01:10 < gmaxwell> In any case, if I didn't think people would want them I wouldn't have mentioned them here!
01:11 < gmaxwell> I do think the price inhibits adoption, which makes me sad.
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01:23 < tulip> gmaxwell: http://www.hexview.com/~scl/neo/
01:24 < tulip> the Nano version is more interesting, they are just a piece of normal PCB material with the silicon die seemingly placed in between the layers.
01:27 < gmaxwell> This may be of more general interest, I mentioned a bit of wtf in #secp256k1 earlier:
01:28 < gmaxwell> Anyone have any theories why his example uses a field of F(2^226), http://www.embeddedrelated.com/showarticle/857/elliptic-curve-cryptography   or rather, any theories OTHER than intentionally causing people to use parameters vulnerable to weil descent??
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01:30 < gmaxwell> tulip: wrt that article, I have to say my expirence with older yubikeys (never used a neo or later myself) is that in ordinary use they're very robust.
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01:33 < gmaxwell> but yea, the parts costs reflect my expectations... and also part of why I was lamenting.
01:33 < tulip> same, I had a yubikey nano on my literal keyring for 2 years with no problems.
01:35 < gmaxwell> i have an mtgox yubi on my keyring, since they shipped them out at the end of 2011. Still works fine. btkrtfhcgkbefuelkgdhrbelfiiudleetifdchbknvre
01:35 < tulip> the price probably reflects their expectation of saturating the available market more than anything.
01:36 < gmaxwell> I wonder if their u2f only devices are the same hardware with a different firmware load?
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01:38 < gmaxwell> weird. I commented on that ecc article and pointed out the problematic parameters and my comment is gone, did anyone see it?
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01:41 < fluffypony> nope - removed or just awaiting moderation?
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01:46 < gmaxwell> fluffypony: yea, probably the latter, though thats why I asked if anyone else saw it.
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01:54 < fluffypony> http://news.stanford.edu/news/2015/november/fraud-science-papers-111615.html
01:54 < fluffypony> .title
01:54 < yoleaux> Stanford researchers uncover patterns in how scientists lie about their data
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07:38 < kanzure> "In order to create a bidirectional payment channel, it is necessary that previous commitments be revokable. In order to revoke previous commitments, each party reveals a secret to the other that would allow them to steal the funds in the channel if a transaction for a previous commitment is inserted into the blockchain. By allowing for arbitrary nesting of sublevels, we can construct decision trees of arbitrary depth and revoke an ...
07:38 < kanzure> ... entire branch by revealing a parent node used to derive all the children."
07:38 < kanzure> from https://github.com/CodeShark/bips/blob/DHD_key_trees/bip-DHD_key_trees.mediawiki
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13:25 < kanzure> Madars: lightning network + snarks stuff, http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2015-November/000309.html
13:25  * zooko looks
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14:00  * aj waves at kanzure
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14:29 < Madars> Interesting!
14:29  * Madars looks
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14:30 < Madars> whoops, looks like I missed your earlier question, kanzure (about trustless SNARKs in Hong Kong) -- the anwer is yes! where by trustless we mean "you have to corrupt every single MPC participant to break the trust guarantees"
14:31 < nsh> any reference for this?
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14:33 < Madars> yes, we have a paper "Secure Sampling of Public Parameters for Succinct Zero Knowledge Proofs" in this year's Oakland
14:34 < Madars> whoops, seems like they haven't made it open access. hmm...
14:34 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/snarks/Secure%20sampling%20of%20public%20parameters%20for%20succinct%20zero%20knowledge%20proofs.pdf
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14:35 < Madars> kanzure: yup! :)
14:37 < nsh> awesome
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14:46 < bramc> madars: How many parties in the setup can that protocol practically support?
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15:18 < kanzure> er i have heard claims of many 1000s of participants
15:18 < gmaxwell> I heard the opposite, bandwidth usage was large and involved broadcasts that scaled poorly.
15:18 < Madars> bramc: it generates about 12GB/party data and 4 hours/party, but the kicker is probably round complexity (you need 3*num_parties rounds). but we are hard at work to optimize the implementation :)
15:18 < kanzure> oh
15:18 < gmaxwell> yea, thats in line with what I heard.
15:19 < gmaxwell> And I recommended that it was important to have a remote participant, even if the cost was great and it made the process slow.
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15:19 < kanzure> there was a scheme that required a 1-10 GB "setup data" stage, but i thought this was maxed out at 10 GB and not much more data required; perhaps this was some other technique from another area.
15:22 < rusty> Hmm, lightning + snarks (including demo implementation).  http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2015-November/000309.html
15:24 < sipa> i read "lightning + sharks"
15:25 < rusty> sipa:
15:25 < rusty> frickin' lasers!
15:25 < gmaxwell> interesting, I think a snark is overkill for that, in fact-- it doesn't need public verifibility, no?
15:26 < gmaxwell> (if so, it's not amazingly important; but it means that the higher layer protocol is more robust to needing particular cryptographic assumptions)
15:26 < Madars> gmaxwell: yes. compared to classical MPC protocols the round complexity is amazing (as in: you don't need to exchange 4 million messages back and forth for each party, if your circuit has 4 million mul gates like zerocash), but people should use airgaps and then 3*num_parties rounds is better than 4million*num_parties, but still not so shiny
15:27 < kanzure> was that email partly motivated by fee sniping concerns? i think fee sniping should be okay- if someone is better at routing and can figure out a way to offer a better fee, let 'em.
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15:27 < rusty> gmaxwell: I mentioned it here because of my complete inability to assess the proposal.
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15:29 < gmaxwell> rusty: well just assume the black box does what he says.  or more generally,  think about what you can do in the lightning protocols if someone hands you the ability to give someone a list of hashes, and then prove that they are H(X||1) H(X||2) H(X||3)... for some unspecified X.
15:29 < gmaxwell> (not exactly the construction he's using but I think it's simpler to reason with)
15:32 < rusty> gmaxwell: yeah, I was wresting with dissociating R values a while back (and probably discussed it with ah), and didn't think of snarks.  I felt there may be a way using pubkeys, but it would require more thought and in particular, a thorough definition of the requirements.
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17:53 < mrkent> Is the concept of weak blocks documented anywhere besides IRC logs?
17:54 < gmaxwell> mrkent: Go look at the private thread between Peter R and myself that he posted to the mailing list. (perhaps someone has a link handy)
17:56 < mrkent> gmaxwell: sub: weak block thoughts...?
17:57 < gmaxwell> In any case, it's not currently a singular proposal; just the set of ideas that start from observation that if you have a method (that is DOS attack resistant) to flood transactions early, then the finding of a block can normally need only a small constant amount of data (a reference to whichever earlier broadcast was used); thus taking transaction transmission out of the propagation critical pat
17:57 < gmaxwell> h.
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17:57 < gmaxwell> And that you can use something analogous to merged mining to accomplish the rate limiting to prevent DOS in a way that gives the most access to early transmission to the parties with the best odds of producing the next blocks.
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17:58 < gmaxwell> And this is important because any delay in propagation means that larger hashpower consoliations are more profitable.
18:00 < gmaxwell> no, it's before that.
18:00 < gmaxwell> I'll go look, one sec.
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18:03 < gmaxwell> mrkent: in the pastebin here https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-August/010737.html
18:03 < gmaxwell> mrkent: maybe start reading at line 227
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18:45 < kanzure> mrkent: here are some links describing weak blocks,
18:45 < kanzure> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=673415.msg7658481#msg7658481
18:45 < kanzure> http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-September/011158.html
18:45 < kanzure> http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-wizards/2015-11-09.log
18:45 < kanzure> http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-November/011707.html
18:46 < kanzure> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=179598.0
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19:12 < mrkent> @gmaxwell: your discussion with peter_r seemed more about his paper than weak blocks
19:12 < mrkent> kanzure: thanks will read next
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19:19 < kanzure> mrkent: "transaction propagation out of the critical path" is quite on-topic for weak blocks, not sure what you mean
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19:20 < mrkent> kanzure: i need to take another look at that paper is probably what it means
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20:20 < gmaxwell> mrkent: the specific part at 227 goes and describes a weak block system and the motivation for it.
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22:03 < bramc> I believe weak blocks in their weakest form: No change to the blockchain, just a DOS-resistant way to assure flooding, is a good idea.
22:03 < bramc> Clearly good idea I mean.
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