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03:03 < matsjj> in the EC Field, does multiplication work, such that K2=K1*p and k2=k1*p with K the pub and k the priv key respectively? Or is there some other operation like addition where something similar holds?
03:03 < matsjj> with p as a scalar
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03:04 < sipa> matsjj: yes, that's the principle behind ECDH
03:05 < sipa> you have x1 and x2, with corresponding public keys Q1 and Q2, and both sides compute the same P = x1*Q2 = x2*Q2
03:06 < sipa> oh, you were just asking about scalar multiplication
03:06 < sipa> yes
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03:06 < sipa> that holds
03:06 < sipa> (though it's a group, not a field)
03:06 < matsjj> And is it difficult to find the scalar, given K1 and K2?
03:07 < sipa> it holds for every scalar
03:07 < sipa> if K1=k1*G, then K1*p = (k1*p)*G for every scalar p
03:08 < matsjj> Right, so I could give someone K1, K2 and p, and he could be sure that if he ever learns about k1, he can also calculate k2, right?
03:08 < sipa> yes
03:08 < sipa> you can just K1 and p
03:09 < sipa> or give K2 and p; you can calculate K1 as K2*(1/p)
03:09 < matsjj> oh indeed
03:09 < sipa> if the elliptic curve points formed a group, you could multiply two points
03:10 < sipa> eh, if they formed a field
03:10 < sipa> and there is something similar with addition as well
03:11 < matsjj> I was thinking about http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2015-November/000309.html - in lightning a payment can be related using the same hash R across the whole route. If we replace that with priv/pub keys, we could use above instead of using SNARKS ... would need something like OP_CHECKPUBPRIVKEY though
03:12 < sipa> if K1=k1*G, then k2=k1+p and k2*G=K2=K1+p*G
03:12 < sipa> that's the basis behind BIP32 derivation
03:12 < matsjj> I think I read BIP32 3 times already, but still was not sure about the background hehe
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03:18 < matsjj> sipa, another question. given that BIP62 was withdrawn now, most of the 3rd party attack vectors are only embedded using isStandard, so a miner could still modify the txid, right?
03:19 < sipa> yes
03:19 < sipa> but bip62 didn't protect against the type of malleability needed for many use cases anyway
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03:20 < matsjj> and miners have more degrees of freedom in changing it than just the s value, also correct? Can they also change OP_0 into OP_PUSH1[0x00]?
03:20 < sipa> yup
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03:20 < sipa> or add dummies to the scriptSig
03:21 < matsjj> given a normal 1-input-1-p2sh-output, how big is the vector? is it feasible? 2 values for the s value * ... ?
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03:25 < matsjj> oh he can do OP_DROP in the scriptSig... so it's practically unlimited
03:25 < tulip> pushdata can be mutated too.
03:26 < sipa> practically unlimted, indeed
03:27 < matsjj> Will SW solve this problem sufficiently?
03:27 < sipa> completely
03:28 < sipa> as the scriptSig data no longer influences the txid
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03:28 < matsjj> how is the txid calculated then?
03:28 < sipa> mutating it has no effect
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03:28 < sipa> using everything except the scriptSig :)
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03:28 < sipa> scriptSigs, even
03:29 < matsjj> isn't it the same as NORMALIZED_TXID then?
03:29 < sipa> no, normalized txid doesn't change the actual txid, it just adds a new txid that's only used in sighash
03:30 < sipa> segregated witness effectiverly moves the scriptSig out of the transaction
03:30 < matsjj> I see! On the mailist list rusty said luke came up with a way to softfork SW into bitcoin?
03:30 < sipa> yeah, i'm working on an implementation
03:31 < matsjj> cool! But how do you make sure old clients are accepting these?
03:31 < sipa> they don't
03:31 < sipa> as the client decides the type of outouts they accept
03:32 < matsjj> but then its a hard fork?
03:32 < sipa> or do you mean how to make old full nodes accept them? easy, make them look like anyone can spend outputs
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03:33 < matsjj> hm. do you have a writeup about that? I have a hard time constructing such a transaction in my head
03:34 < sipa> say for example the output is "<somehash> OP_7"
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03:34 < sipa> to old clients, this can be spent with a scriptSig of ""
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03:35 < sipa> but we add a new field to transactions, the witness, one per input
03:35 < sipa> which contains both the actual redeem script (whose hash matches the hash in the output) and its inputs
03:36 < sipa> to old nodes, this witness does not exist (it's filtered out on relay)
03:36 < matsjj> and it's not signed then either?
03:36 < sipa> it contains the signature
03:36 < matsjj> oh right
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03:37 < sipa> but it is not included in the sighash
03:37 < aj> sipa: "and its inputs" ?
03:37 < sipa> scriptSigs aren't in the sighash either (which is exactly the probpem, if they were, they woulkdn't be malleable"
03:38 < sipa> aj: the data needed for it to evaluate to true, what typically went into the scriptSig
03:39 < sipa> oh, OP_NOP7 also checks whether the actual scriptSig is empty... otherwise it would still be malleable
03:39 < aj> sipa: oh, "the redeem script" just means the p2sh script from the input tx then?
03:39 < matsjj> sipa, is there a public document describing that? I am only finding posts writing over it, but nothing technical
03:39 < sipa> aj: yes, and its data inputs
03:39 < sipa> matsjj: no, i've been working on this for the past two weeks, changing design a dozen times
03:40 < sipa> i'll post some writeup soon
03:40 < matsjj> great stuff, thanks for working on it!
03:40 < sipa> i'll also present on it in hongkomg
03:40 < sipa> hongkong
03:40 < aj> what matsjj said; great idea, but sounds like hell to implement :)
03:41 < matsjj> what is your impression, how long would it take to see it fully implemented?
03:41 < aj> sipa: i assume this means lots of new index stuff so you can query by witness versus txid
03:41 < sipa> you can have a look at github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commits/segwit
03:41 < sipa> aj: nope, none
03:41 < sipa> you never need to query for the txid-including-witness
03:42 < sipa> it's only needed inside block commitments
03:42 < sipa> aj: that's the advantage over ntxid, which needs a map txid->ntxid in the chainstate
03:42 < aj> sipa: oh, so tx's with segwit aren't malleable, rather than just it not mattering if they're malleated?
03:43 < sipa> they aren't malleable at all, as their scriptSigs are required to be empty
03:44 < sipa> the redeemscript and data inputs to it (the signature etc) are part of the witness, which is relayed alongside transactions and blocks, but not part of it
03:44 < sipa> (but blocks contain a commitment to the witnesses)
03:44 < matsjj> so it is true then, we save a lot of storage, right?
03:45 < sipa> well you still need to store the witnesses
03:45 < sipa> if you want to relay to full node
03:45 < sipa> but the witness data is "more prunable", as you don't need it unless you want to validate signatures
03:47 < aj> sipa: dropping witnesses (sounds like a mafia thing to do) gets you halfway to SPV; still validating total coins, just not signatures etc...
03:47 < sipa> yup
03:48 < sipa> i briefly considered a p2p message "subpoena" to request witnesses, but that might scare some people :)
03:48 < aj> sipa: you'd have to come up with a "poena" call to use if they nacked your subpoena request too
03:50 < aj> sipa: crossexamine might work though!
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03:54 < tulip> aj: that's the first plausible use I've seen for the 12 character size of the p2p command field.
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05:58 < kanzure> for those who need a secret decoder ring, SW is segregated witness
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06:52 < Eliel_> So, SW would be similar as a transition to P2SH? It looks like it's doing basically the same thing. That is, it allows reworking the whole script system without breaking backward compatibility.
06:52 < Eliel_> oh, I think it also effectively increases maximum block size.
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07:05 < nsh> Eliel_, segregated witness has other benefits in terms of light clients and time to sync the blockchain wrt particular transactions of interest
07:05 < nsh> and from there general network traffic and scaling consequences
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07:07 < Eliel_> yes, I can see how that'd be easy to implement on the side.
07:09 < Eliel_> might also make sense to accompany the soft work with a timed hard fork 5 years to the future that enables all disabled opcodes for old style scripts while changing them into OP_NOPs. Makes more room for future soft forks :P
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07:10 < sipa> Eliel_: no need!
07:10 < sipa> we can just add a vereion number to the script in the witness
07:11 < sipa> if the version number is too high, it's automatically valid
07:11 < Eliel_> well, if you design upgradability into SW, it could be unnecessary, but it seems like a waste to leave the old baggage laying around when you can clean it out.
07:11 < sipa> that allows you to make any script changes as a soft fork
07:11 < Eliel_> ok, that sounds like a good idea.
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07:13 < Eliel_> but cleaning out the opcodes would allow you to use them as version numbers :P
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07:13 < sipa> with a vereion number you can do that later on as a softfork :)
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07:24 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] aj: seg witness impl is actually trivial
07:24 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] could be coded up in a few hours
07:25 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] and you can see from the branch that it doesn't end up being very man loc
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07:34 < aj> tacotime: great, have it on my desk by tomorrow morning then! ;)
07:35 < sipa> just look at my branch...
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10:06 < amiller_> https://github.com/kwonalbert/spacemint
10:06 < amiller_> http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/528
10:06 < amiller_> the spacecoin authors have been busy....
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10:08 < bsm1175321> New mining algorithms are boring.  :-/  Ultimately it still comes down to the economic assets devoted to mining, as measured externally.  The algorithm or medium are completely immaterial.
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10:11 < maaku> sipa: why not have the segwitness scriptPubKey be the hash160 of the redeemscript, and put the redeemscript in the witness?
10:12 < maaku> is there a reason the redeemscript is needed by non-script-validating nodes?
10:12 < bsm1175321> OTOH a diversity of algorithms would be interesting in preventing any one miner from becoming too large.
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10:13 < amiller_> bsm117532, proofs of space aren't boring, i disagree
10:13 < bsm1175321> amiller_: care to elaborate?  ;-)
10:14 < sipa> maaku: i was simplifying, that's the plan indeed (sha256, not hash160, as 160 bit is vulnerable to collisions)
10:14 < maaku> sipa: ok awesome
10:14 < maaku> I'll stop reviewing your branch until it is current then :)
10:14 < sipa> maaku: that's implemented, actually
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10:16 < sipa> maaku: for very small redeemscripts (less than 32 bytes), they can be in the scriptPubKey too (it doesn't add much complexity, but perhaps people consider this too much)
10:20 < andytoshi> amiller_: they claim that high capital vs marginal costs is *good*, which is remarkable
10:20  * zooko looks at http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/528
10:21 < amiller_> let's give 'em a break in this case... what i mean to call attention to today is that they've actually gone and implemented these graphs!
10:21 < andytoshi> ok, fine :)
10:21 < instagibbs> aw, I was hoping for Space mining
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10:21 < andytoshi> let me at least complain that they comment on PoS without citing me
10:22 < andytoshi> and are consequently wrong
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10:23 < andytoshi> their anti-grinding mechanism also looks cool
10:24 < amiller_> i have beef with the anti-grinding mechanism, bramc has some ideas of how to combine this with the proof of sequential work i find intersitng
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10:24 < andytoshi> yeah, i just read it and it doesn't really make sense to me
10:25 < andytoshi> it seems like they just define away grinding
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10:27 < amiller_> well, one problem at a time i guess
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10:29 < maaku> instagibbs: in that case, here you go: http://www.wired.com/2015/11/congress-says-yes-to-space-mining-no-to-rocket-regulations/
10:29 < andytoshi> amiller_: i guess my main question is, if it takes time to generate these proofs then what is the problem of grinding?
10:30 < andytoshi> they talk a lot about "some solutions being very good" which doesn't make sense to me
10:33 < andytoshi> (sorry, i really haven't been following the proof-of-space or PoR space)
10:33 < andytoshi> but like, why can't they just have a difficulty threshold like in bitcoin
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10:42 < andytoshi> oh, this is very strange, it is actually "best block at a given height wins" which seems like it'd have horrible reorg properties
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11:05 < amiller_> hi bramc https://github.com/kwonalbert/spacemint
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11:26 < fluffypony> Interesting stuff, amiller_
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11:32 < kanzure> can someone explain thaddeus =~ tadge?
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11:33 < fluffypony> andytoshi: the paper was of a high quality, compared to what we're used to
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11:34 < bsm1175321> That it is, I'll give them that.
11:34 < fluffypony> Intuitively PoSpace feels like it must suffer from an ability to cheat somewhere along the line
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11:35 < GreenIsMyPepper> kanzure: yes, it's his nickname
11:35 < kanzure> yeah but... wouldn't that be "thad" instead?
11:35 < kanzure> or unrelated nickname?
11:35 < fluffypony> I'm still digesting and reading, but everything seems to hinge on the unpredictable beacon I wonder if you couldn't do partial storage in the hopes the beacon covers what you actually have on disk
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11:36 < GreenIsMyPepper> kanzure: i think he's the 3rd thaddeus in his family tree, so it needs some canonical identifier. he's said it's a problem of "name malleability"
11:36 < kanzure> thanks, that makes much more sense now
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11:39 < kanzure> (context: i had typoed his nickname in a reddit comment a few minutes ago, and just saw his email to lightning-dev with a different spelling from my first guess, so was confused)
11:40 < GreenIsMyPepper> kanzure: haha yeah np. ahhh yeah it confuses me too ^_^
11:40 < instagibbs> we'll just call him T
11:40 < kanzure> yes i'm sure he'll realize that taking the entire namespace is far more practical than a unique member of the namespace
11:41 < jgarzik> all humans should be named by hash
11:41 < kanzure> and if you know their preimage, you-- wait, no, that's witchcraft, not wizardry.
11:42 < GreenIsMyPepper> lol
11:42 < kanzure> there actually is a large amount of decentralization in the human body regarding genomic content
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12:01 < kanzure> hard-fork implementation of segregated witness https://github.com/ElementsProject/elements/commit/663e9bd32965008a43a08d1d26ea09cbb14e83aa
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12:12 < kanzure> segregated witness linkdump https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1210235.msg13016760#msg13016760
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12:26 < jouke> kanzure: thanks :)
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12:57 < bramc> amiller_, Thanks, I'll look at that later. It should at least clarify what the API is a bit.
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12:58 < amiller_> the mit student working on it is pretty sharp and totally has a grasp of how the graph is built, it's not that complicated, i invited him to show up here!
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12:59 < fluffypony> https://w00tsec.blogspot.co.za/2015/11/arris-cable-modem-has-backdoor-in.html
12:59 < fluffypony> .title
12:59 < yoleaux> w00tsec: ARRIS Cable Modem has a Backdoor in the Backdoor
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13:00 < bramc> amiller_, Did you see my babbling in channel about making the later challenges be based on the output of a proof of time on the earlier ones?
13:01 < amiller_> i didn't look closely, no
13:01 < amiller_> i did notice it
13:11 < bramc> amiller_, The basic idea is that you want to prevent gaming from selecting outputs which result in later challenges which you yourself have good answers to, so you make the challenges be timelocked
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13:56 < moa> what's a backdoor in a backdoor? ... a catflap?
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13:57 < belcher> moa wicket gate
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16:40 < bramc> does it matter if I make my reference implementation in python2 or python3? Doing it in python2 is slightly annoying.
16:46 < kanzure> nope, but if you find this turns out to be false, i'll volunteer to write a python2 implementation
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17:08 < rusty> sipa: matsjj just posted his "atomic swap by keypair" to lightning-dev, thanked you for sanity check.  http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2015-November/000314.html
17:09 < rusty> sipa: it's awesome work; I suspected it was possible but didn't follow though.  Thanks :)  Though I can't see a way around the requirement for an OP_CHECKKEYPAIRVERIFY.
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