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02:37 < petertodd> gmaxwell: inclined to NACK the didn't validate flag on the grounds that we can force validation in the future ~100% of the time
02:38 < petertodd> gmaxwell: also, it's a good thing for the ecosystem if people aren't trusting miners to validate
02:38 < petertodd> gmaxwell: the fact that miners validate is a mistake, albeit one that is very difficult to fix
02:39 < Lightsword> petertodd, I think the biggest problem with the lack of validation is that you can’t rollback to previous blocks easially on most deployed mining software
02:39 < Lightsword> so you can’t even implement a timeout on validation
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02:43 < petertodd> Lightsword: you're talking about a very different level of problem then I am :)
02:44 < Lightsword> petertodd, maybe but it makes non-validating headers only mining just unsafe in general
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02:46 < petertodd> Lightsword: what do you mean?
02:47 < Lightsword> petertodd, say you pick up an invalid block header and send out stratum updates….eventually you find out the header was invalid….now you are stuck since you can’t put the miners back on the previous header
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02:50 < petertodd> Lightsword: huh? why can't you just push them a new header?
02:50 < Lightsword> petertodd, because the mining software will think it is stale
02:51 < Lightsword> and will refuse to mine on it
02:51 < petertodd> Lightsword: mining sw determines staleness based on prevblockhash?
02:51 < petertodd> Lightsword: surprising
02:51 < Lightsword> pretty much
02:51 < Lightsword> petertodd https://github.com/ckolivas/cgminer/blob/master/cgminer.c#L4727
02:52 < petertodd> Lightsword: ugh, that needs to be fixed
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02:53 < Lightsword> petertodd, pretty much too late at this point
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02:53 < petertodd> Lightsword: yeah, that could lead to some pretty ugly results
02:55 < Lightsword> petertodd, the big problem is that it would have to be recompiled for every embedded miner out there
02:56 < Lightsword> petertodd, have you seen this tool I made? http://poolbench.antminer.link/
02:59 < petertodd> oh cool!
02:59 < Lightsword> petertodd, it watches pools for startum updates in real time :)
03:00 < Lightsword> it’s a hacky php script but works well enough
03:00 < petertodd> got those stats in a database?
03:00 < Lightsword> haha, nope
03:01 < petertodd> got those stats in a blockchain?
03:01 < Lightsword> petertodd, that would be a lot of work…it’s literally a cgminer log parser….stats are in a cgminer logfile
03:02 < Lightsword> it’s also pretty terrible at handling edgecases
03:02 < petertodd> ah ok, well, if you keep that logfile that's not so bad
03:02 < Lightsword> I reset it every now and then but usually try and keep it
03:04 < petertodd> cool, if yoiu need archiving space or something, we should find a way to keep that
03:04 < Lightsword> petertodd, disk space isn’t the issue so much as making it workable for database storage
03:05 < petertodd> cool
03:05 < Lightsword> it’s really hack and depends on the log entry ordering in cgminer
03:05 < Lightsword> really hacky*
03:07 < Lightsword> petertodd, I just threw the site up on a random digitalocean VPS I had
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05:37 < kanzure> off-topic-ish http://www.cornell.edu/video/nima-arkani-hamed-spacetime-is-doomed
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06:23 < kanzure> 02:38 < petertodd> gmaxwell: the fact that miners validate is a mistake, albeit one that is very difficult to fix
06:23 < kanzure> the alternative needs a good name
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06:33 < CodeShark> kanzure: it's not an isolated mistake - it's an implication of the original incentives model which is now busted in several ways
06:34 < CodeShark> The satoshi whitepaper only listed one incentive for validation...not losing mining rewards
06:37 < CodeShark> the original bitcoin design makes no attempts at division of labor...you either run a full node or you run an spv node
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06:38 < CodeShark> the only quasi-attempt is the idea of fraud proofs...but no specification for this was ever provided by satoshi
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06:48 < CodeShark> So I'm not sure what to call an alternative
06:49 < CodeShark> Nonminer incentives?
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06:55 < kanzure> fraud proofs were the idea of proving miner validation fraud, so that's still miners doing validation, so no
06:56 < kanzure> well, i guess you can have fraud proofs for other activity, nevermind
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08:10 < instagibbs> kanzure, why isn't it just "embedded consensus"?
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09:10 < JackH> what is the channel for scaling bitcoin hong kong?
09:10 < JackH> anyone knows?
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09:32 < kanzure> JackH: #bitcoin-workshops
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09:37 < JackH> thx
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10:30 < coinoperated_rob> hello, new to this chan.  is there a summary of the scope of topics discussed here someone can point me to, or should i just review the logs?
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10:40 < kanzure> reading the logs is a good idea.
10:40 < kanzure> while you are doing that, writing a summary would also be great
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10:44 < coinoperated_rob> I'll write a summary for a bitcoin community as soon as my nomex suit is back from the cleaners
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10:44 < coinoperated_rob> but thx, i figured logs would be the answer
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11:43 < coinoperated_rob> how much hashpower is "enough hashpower,"  i.e. the point at which any further securitization of a Tx is beyond the point of diminishing returns?
11:44 < coinoperated_rob> i suppose it would be somewhat subjective, based on the purchaser's estimation and apetite for risk
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11:44 < sipa> coinoperated_rob: depends on how much hashpower potential attacks have
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11:45 < coinoperated_rob> is the assumption "infinite"  the upper bound?
11:46 < sipa> theoretically, yes
11:46 < sipa> but if that was the case, they are choosing to lose a lot of money by not using it already
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11:51 < coinoperated_rob> @sipa not sure i follow, sorry :/  I think an example might help.  So presently a Tx worth 0.01 BTC requires the same amount of security as a 1.00 BTC Tx, or a 100 BTC tx.  It seems like this is a good thing for the reputation of the blockchain as a tool for securing Tx, but it doesn't make as much sense in an individual's economic terms.
11:54 < coinoperated_rob> My working assumption is that a consistent testimony of security for any given Tx is a higher priority than matching cost to benefit for individual Tx.
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11:56 < coinoperated_rob> IOW  I might be OK with losing a little money for a little security,  even if I wasn't ok with losing a lot of money
11:57 < coinoperated_rob> in which case yeah, i want all of it
11:58 < sipa> that's a very fundamental weakness in bitcoin's security... all transactions are treated equal in security level
11:58 < coinoperated_rob> Dial-a-hash.
11:58 < sipa> which means its usefulness is limited to a certain range of values to protect
11:59 < coinoperated_rob> @sipa  indeed.  i assume it's like common law - the most minor conflicts must be adjudicated with the same entire force of law as major ones, or the authority of the law risks becoming subjective
12:00 < sipa> well we don't need authority here
12:01 < sipa> i'd say it's a weakness; a system that is useful for a wider range of values, perhaps with reduced security at one side, would be better
12:01 < coinoperated_rob> authority isn't something we can opt out of though.  it forms wherever conditions favorable to it exist
12:01 < sipa> if it does not come with a reduction of security at the other
12:02 < sipa> in a very extreme sense, sure, but that would correspond here with people stop using the blockchain for determining authority to spend coins
12:02 < sipa> i guess the real world equivalent of that is bitcoin using value
12:02 < coinoperated_rob> would this be basically what sidechains are for?   sharded domains of local authority, subject to federal authority
12:03 < sipa> sidechains are just a tool
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12:03 < sipa> federated sidechains are a way to introduce another security tradeoff
12:04 < sipa> merged-mines ones imho not really; if we want people to validate and adopt them they must come with the same downsides as bitcoin itself
12:04 < coinoperated_rob> i understand, maybe a better way to phrase would be "is this the fundamental problem that sidechains are a response to"
12:04 < sipa> no, they enable innovation
12:05 < sipa> they don't shard security
12:05 < kanzure> the upper bound is local energy content of solar system
12:05 < kanzure> or possibly a bit lower
12:05 < kanzure> slightly.
12:05 < coinoperated_rob> half of it
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12:05 < sipa> coinoperated_rob: the fundamental problem that sidechains are a response to is the fact thay we can't improve bitcoin without approval of the entire ecosystem
12:06  * fluffypony goes off to build a dyson sphere
12:06 < coinoperated_rob> this is bad though,  i don't think we want to pit A's 50% of the dyson sphere against B's 50%
12:06 < kanzure> fluffypony: actually i think a dyson swarm would be a more practical initiative
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12:06 < kanzure> on a related note, this is a fun read http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/The%20physics%20of%20information%20processing%20superobjects%20-%20Anders%20Sandberg.pdf
12:07 < coinoperated_rob> @sipa   approval of the entire ecosystem is what i mean by authority forming where it will, not where it is desired
12:07 < sipa> coinoperated_rob: lightning for example looks like a much better example of another point on the security/value tradeoff
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12:07 < kanzure> authority-centric views are probably non-productive in this domain
12:08 < sipa> coinoperated_rob: or other types of micropayment channels
12:08 < coinoperated_rob> @sipa  i have to catch up on lightning,  but my rudimentary grasp is that it's something like ripple layered on to bitcoin,  with pre-paid caches that hold direct channels beteen parties open
12:09 < kanzure> sipa: i am curious if you have seen and/or disagreed with the (vague) explanation of payment channels as "rough constraints around otherwise undefined behavior of zero-conf transactions"
12:09 < coinoperated_rob> this is probably way way off though.
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12:11 < sipa> coinoperated_rob: the way i like to describe it best is as a caching layer: transactions are negotiated and renegotiated in lightning, but the transactions are fully fledged bitcoin transactions; the bitcoin blockchain is however only involved for settling after either a timeout of non-cooperation of a participant, rather than for every individual transfer
12:11 < coinoperated_rob> @kanzure   we may not like authority any more than cancer, but both have natural causes rooted in things we do like
12:11 < kanzure> i was not making any claims about my preferences regarding authority and i'm a little surprised you would somehow interpret my prior message as doing so?
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12:12 < sipa> i just very much disagree with the notion that (mined) sidechains add any useful security tradeoff to the ecosystem. they're strictly less secure than using the alternative of using one blockchain
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12:12 < kanzure> my (dis)preferences regarding authority should not inform whether i understand when its inapplicable
12:12 < coinoperated_rob> @sipa so a settlement layer for bulk Tx aggregations, with  bitcoin blockchain being a record of contract of these Tx confirmed as agreed by both/all parties?
12:13 < sipa> what they add is the ability to experiment with new technology, which indirectly can lead to a more secure system overall of course, but not by using it directly
12:13 < sipa> coinoperated_rob: aggregated transactions go to the blockchain yes
12:14 < coinoperated_rob> @kanzure I was using "we"  in the same sense you used "here" - not addressed to anyone in particular, but to "us"  "here"
12:14 < kanzure> i know.
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12:14 < sipa> i think this conversation would be more useful if it was a bit less abstract :)
12:15 < kanzure> sipa: yes/no on explaining payment channels as "mostly zero-conf"? more harmful than helpful?
12:16 < kanzure> coinoperated_rob: my point only is that you should not assume applicability of a concept merely because of our preferences
12:17 < kanzure> (or inapplicability)
12:17 < coinoperated_rob> @sipa  probably,  given the forum.  working from the middle out instead of from the top down is better when you can do it in confidence that the topmost premises are all settled questions.
12:17 < kumavis> RootStock white paper here: https://t.co/DhRQg6cczp ( spoiler alert: its a federated peg )
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12:19 < kanzure> without the tweeter tracker http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/RootstockWhitePaperv9-Overview.pdf
12:19 < kumavis> thnaks
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12:24 < coinoperated_rob> @kanzure  I'm personally neutral on authority, it's just a form of social force to me. Having an approving view on it would be like having an approving view on gravity. It's just something that's there and must be contended with regardless of preferences.
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12:26 < coinoperated_rob> @sipa:  thanks for clarification
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12:27 < kanzure> i never said anything about approval, and i'm confused why you would bring up gravity approval.
12:27 < kanzure> at any rate, this is not only bad epistemology, but it's also off-topic,
12:28 < kanzure> s/bad/low-quality
12:29 < coinoperated_rob> @i'm really just interested in original question, which is how much hashpower is 'enough',  are there any discussions of this or models etc.   "Auhority" is a sidetrack.
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12:30 < sipa> kanzure: i guess yes, though the only requirement channels have of confirmability is "bounded time inclusion", thry don't rely on non-replacability of zero-conf tramsactions, which is what people mostly mean when they talk about 0-conf security
12:30 < coinoperated_rob> @kanzure ^^
12:30 < sipa> coinoperated_rob: a majority :)
12:30 < kanzure> sipa: that's true, i guess most people talk about zero-conf in the context of flooding the network, not about private exchange of zero-conf between two parties
12:31 < kanzure> although i think some of the routing proposals have included flooding of some kind
12:31  * sipa adapts to HK time
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12:39 < coinoperated_rob> @kanzure
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12:43 < instagibbs> sipa, wow fixed your jetlag already, nice
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13:06 < coinoperated_rob>   @kanzure,  that paper is good.  it comes close to asking the question that really matters, which is whether consensus is either physically impossible (other than by chance) or expensively redundant at planetary scales.   great examination of some of the natural boundaries and how some may be overcome
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13:13  * nsh blinks
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15:47 < kanzure> https://bitslog.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/dagcoin-v41.pdf
15:50 < kanzure> above is sergio lerner dag chain dagcoin stuff.
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15:51 < kanzure> "The resulting authenticated data structure is a Direct Acyclic Graph (DAG) of transactions where each transaction “confirms” one or more previous transactions. The confirmation security of a transaction is measured in accumulated amount of proof-of-work referencing the transaction."
15:51 < kanzure> seems to make sense, given coinbase transactions...
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15:55 < kanzure> regarding restriction of the shape of the graph, i would expect that to influence transaction creation preferences somehow (probably in a similar sense to how lightning requires liquidity in certain places and incentivizes either creation of those channels or utilization of paths that have less-fee-heavy access to liquidity).
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16:06 < coinoperated_rob> as always, best place to be is in the middle of the action, not stuck out in the logical hinterland of the graph
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16:21 < coinoperated_rob> every other natural inequality between otherwide identical nodes can be fixed except that.  fee based incentives linked to routing advantages will result in de facto centralization as nodes clump in all the predictable places (major NAPs, meet-me rooms etc.)
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16:24 < gmaxwell> coinoperated_rob: bitcoin has resource constraints to limit the damage that can be done by those incentives; though it remains to be seen if these will be durable parts of the system.
16:25 < kanzure> i have dropped a comment re: "how to use lightning in a way that does not require 100 MB blocks" https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3vgypg/bitfury_reckon_lightning_will_be_10000x_visas/cxnkdrf
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16:26 < kanzure> coinoperated_rob: lightning has a concept of "negative fees" to help with asymmetrical capital clumps
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16:26 < gmaxwell> kanzure: the whole >100 MB block was only claimed before timestop; it also is about peaks of huge amounts of high fee transactions, not ordinary capacity.
16:26 < kanzure> timestop?
16:26 < kanzure> oh, timelock
16:27 < kanzure> huh i guess i should add that detail then
16:27 < gmaxwell> no, timestop.
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16:28 < gmaxwell> Delay the refund expirations when the blocks are saturated high fee transactions; it turns dos attacks back into delays instead of fund theft.
16:28 < kanzure> ah section 3.3.1 https://lightning.network/lightning-network-paper.pdf
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16:29 < kanzure> oh, 100 MB was originally because of dumping-everything-to-the-blockchain concerns? it was my understanding that it was about confirming an obscenely high 10e9 number of commitment transactions per block or something.
16:30 < kanzure> this is good to know
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16:31 < coinoperated_rob> @gmaxwell   which resource contraints in particular?  block size seems like the most obvious one, but what are other contraints that help inhibit (what I would generally call) adaptive resource monopolization
16:31 < coinoperated_rob> @kanzure - I will read up on that, thx
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16:32 < gmaxwell> coinoperated_rob: blocksize is the primary one, there is also the sigops limit; though its incorrectly constructed.
16:32 < coinoperated_rob> @gmaxwell   yes, apparently so :D
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16:33 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, the original 100mb block thing was to replace every single transaction in the entire world
16:33 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, with the timestop improvement that isn't even necessary
16:34 < kanzure> "replace every single transaction" replace with what?
16:34 < kanzure> section 3.3.1 is not talking about commitment transactions
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17:00 < petertodd> kanzure: I've been calling non-miner-validation schemes client-side validation
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17:26 < ielo> kkk
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17:54 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, as in all of the financial transactions that happen on earth
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18:09 < Taek> Pedantic note: you can mine blocks in a lightsphere that has more energy than the lightsphere you are attacking, and then bring the mined blocks over
18:12 < moa> are you sure there's not a 2nd law violation in there somewhere?
18:12 < moa> what did you use as your boundaries, a sufficiently large multi-verse?
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18:35 < maaku> phantomcircuit kanzure: the 100mb block thing also had totally arbitrary numbers pulled out of a hat with respect to channel duration, number of channels per participant, max burst settlement time...
18:36 < maaku> it's totally made up numbers. in reality it could be 10mb, it could be 1gb.
18:39 < phantomcircuit> maaku, it could equally be 0.1MB just by changing the assumption around uptime of channels
18:39 < maaku> phantomcircuit: right
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18:42 < aj> kanzure: the 100MB thing is assuming every person on the planet is using lightning, too...
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18:44 < aj> kanzure: 100 MB/block ~= 10B people * 500B/year / [6*24*365 blocks per year]
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20:27 < Giszmo> phantomcircuit: If you assume today's birth rate and grant every earthling an opening and a closing transaction, you get a hard to argue about lower bound of what bitcoin should support at some point. Birth rate should be about 7billion/70years=100M/year=3.2/s. x2 that's 7tps. Satoshi thought of everything.
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21:14 < AdrianG> lol
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--- Log closed Sat Dec 05 00:00:28 2015