--- Log opened Sat Dec 12 00:00:35 2015 00:02 -!- RoboTedd_ [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:03 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:05 -!- throughnothing [~throughno@c-71-204-189-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 00:05 < Taek> I have a potential solution to two mining attacks that I know of. Forgive me if someone else has already solved this problem, but I haven't seen anything of the sort yet 00:06 < Taek> The first attack is the selfish mining attack. With 33+% of the hashrate, you can withhold a block after you find one and try to find a child for that block 00:07 < Taek> The second attack is related, you leverage a superior network connection 00:07 -!- hashtagg_ [~hashtag@174.97.254.80] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:07 < Taek> You withhold a block when you find one, and when another block appears on the network you race, so that you get to announce your block to 50+% of the nodes before the competing block 00:08 < Taek> the first attack is theoretically pretty easy to execute, the second attack probably not as much - miners are trying to optimize their network connections as much as possible already 00:08 < Taek> A solution to both is to treat competing blocks differently depending on how long its been since the most recent block was announced 00:09 < Taek> For the purposes of explanation, I'll use 30 seconds as the cutoff, though that's probably not the optimal choice 00:10 < Taek> If you see a block and for 30 seconds you don't see a sibling (a competing block sharing a parent), you assume that any sibling going forward is actually a part of a withholding attack 00:10 < Taek> *selfish mining attack 00:10 < Taek> And so you deliberately ignore all sibling blocks until they are at least 2 ahead of the current chain, instead of the typical behavior which is to ignore them until they are 1 ahead of your current chain 00:11 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:11 < Taek> this effectively stuffs the selfish mining attack, and is unlikely to affect honest miners because block propagation should be significantly faster than 30 seconds 00:11 < Taek> Anyone honest should be mining on the new block well before the 30 second cutoff (adjust as necessary so it fits Bitcoin's current situation) 00:12 < Taek> On the other hand, if you see a block and sibling before the 30 second cutoff, you assume a network attack 00:12 < Taek> this may or may not be true 00:12 < Taek> even in the honest case though, the 'late' sibling is only late because the other miner has a worse network connection 00:12 < Taek> you don't want to favor miners with better network connections as this is a centralizing force 00:12 < Taek> so, you pick between the blocks at random 00:14 < tulip> ignoring a fork that's one block higher than you are doesn't sound like a fantastic idea. 00:14 < adlai> more from the tangentially-relevant-idiocy-(esp 'this may or may not be true')-that-never-attained-liftoff-department: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=J1skFU0w 00:15 < Taek> The one thing I'd be worried about here is that it could open up new attack vectors from blocks that have been made to intentionally propagate slowly. You end up with some miners on one side of the 30s cutoff and everyone else on the other side, might cause problems 00:15 < Taek> tulip: you're only ignoring it if it seems to be part of an attack 00:15 < adlai> it's not funded, nor finished, but a blueprint for making nonaltruistic mining even worse, if anybody else feels like funding beauty contests 00:15 < Taek> It's unreasonable that you'd see a sibling block 30s late unless it actually was part of an attack (slow propagation aside) 00:18 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:20 * adlai finds as he better grasps the mythical spherical-vacuum Prediction Market that there's likely not a single human willing to grease its friction-free ball bearings 00:23 < tulip> Taek: I'm not sure that's a good heuristic, but I've no data to prove so. 00:23 < Taek> tulip: you can work it out mathematically, shouldn't be a need for data on this one 00:23 < Taek> tulip: I did forget to mention that the strategy only works if there are enough miners using it 00:25 < Taek> In the case of a 33.3% witholding attack, it should be sufficient that you are the only miner employing the strategy, because the balance is almost perfect. But if there is a cartel of like 40% of the hashing power, then you'll need at least 7% of the honest hashpower employing this strategy 00:25 < Taek> In the case of mining a block at random if you see multiple before the 30 second mark... I could be convinced that it's a bad idea. 00:25 -!- frankenmint [~frankenmi@75-175-72-226.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:27 < tulip> adlai: you can just have fun with transactions which pay large amounts to miners if you want that sort of breakage. if I mine a block with 50 BTC of fees in it, it's in every miners interest to attempt to make it stale and take the fees for themselves. as a user, you can make a transaction locked for a certain depth (say, 50 blocks ago) which pays to an anyone can spend script the value of the cumulative block reward to that point, then publish 00:27 < tulip> it. 00:28 * adlai wonders how much longer we'll see the "oops i accidentally put transaction value in the field that doesn't even exist in the network coding" gag 00:28 < tulip> huh? 00:29 < adlai> tx fees... if a user can enter the desired tx value as fee in an authoring UI, you're either a criminal or a genius, probably both 00:29 < adlai> sorry, 'luser' :-\ 00:30 < tulip> I'm not sure what you mean, there is wallet software which allows that today. 00:35 < adlai> yeah. file it under "how can we keep the Bitcoin Prediction Market (including Bitcoin) aligned with Bitcoin's survival", aka the https://botbot.me/freenode/bitcoin-wizards/2015-12-02/?msg=55242852&page=3 heart attack 00:35 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:306:b8e0:8160:3c65:4fb3:b52f:969f] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:36 < adlai> pretending you need sidechain-level magicry to use bitcoin as a megaphone is inspirational, but naive 00:36 -!- fabianfabian [~fabianfab@5ED15F42.cm-7-2b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: why] 00:36 * adlai goes off to start #bitcoin-plumbers 00:39 < adlai> every preimage colliding over a bunch of hashed contracts brings bitcoin closer to making ethics a prerequisite for CS101 00:40 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@c-71-198-41-47.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:47 -!- tulip [~tulip@unaffiliated/tulip] has quit [Quit: tulip] 00:47 -!- 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[~davec@cpe-24-243-251-52.hot.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:18 -!- alpalp [~alp@104-54-235-28.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:22 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:22 -!- leakypat [~leakypat@KD106130168086.au-net.ne.jp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:28 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:29 -!- leakypat [~leakypat@KD106130168086.au-net.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: leakypat] 02:31 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f11db5b.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:34 -!- katu [~kat@lua.cz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:34 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:36 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f11db5b.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:36 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:36 -!- phy1729 [~phy1729@unaffiliated/phy1729] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:37 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:37 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:39 < jl2012> I created a wiki to collect interesting technical ideas and discussions in Bitcoin. Ask me for editing rights if you are interested: https://8333.info 02:40 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f11db5b.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:44 -!- artifexd [sid28611@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-feljntavhnokvqft] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:44 -!- hashtagg_ [~hashtag@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:45 -!- artifexd [sid28611@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vvyjzqmhscuxbrpa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:48 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:49 -!- hashtagg_ [~hashtag@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:51 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:53 -!- blkdb [~blkdb@2a01:4f8:212:1ea2::2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:53 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:53 -!- blkdb [~blkdb@2a01:4f8:212:1ea2::2] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:59 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:05 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:11 -!- kyuupichan [~Neil@14.3.48.250] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:13 -!- Burrito [~Burrito@unaffiliated/burrito] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:15 < Luke-Jr> jl2012: eh, the Bitcoin Wiki already does that..? 03:15 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:16 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:16 -!- kyuupichan [~Neil@ae048250.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:21 -!- kyuupichan [~Neil@ae048250.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:23 -!- kyuupichan [~Neil@ae048250.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:32 -!- gielbier [~giel____@a149043.upc-a.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:33 -!- gielbier [~giel____@a149043.upc-a.chello.nl] has quit [Changing host] 03:33 -!- gielbier [~giel____@unaffiliated/gielbier] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:37 -!- shesek [~shesek@bzq-84-110-110-139.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:41 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:44 -!- adam3us [~Adium@141.8.72.43] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:45 -!- ManfredMacx [~hyperion@93-136-71-115.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:45 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:56 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:57 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:59 -!- matsjj [~matsjj@p5B20901A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:00 -!- matsjj [~matsjj@p5B20901A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:04 -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@pa49-180-151-95.pa.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:25 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:25 < Taek> js2012: It would be nice to have a wiki that could accept pull requests from github. I know that such a thing exists 04:26 < Taek> * jl2012^ 04:26 < fluffypony> Taek: Github has a wiki, though? 04:26 < fluffypony> oh wait I understand what you're saying 04:26 < fluffypony> wiki-like but with git as the vc 04:26 < Taek> yeah 04:26 < fluffypony> s/vc/vcs 04:27 < fluffypony> I guess bitcoin.org is managed that way 04:28 -!- tulip [~tulip@unaffiliated/tulip] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:28 < Taek> https://github.com/gollum/gollum 04:33 -!- p15 [~p15@ip-20-214-104-93.static.contabo.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 04:46 -!- melvster1 [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:49 -!- Burrito [~Burrito@unaffiliated/burrito] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:00 -!- melvster1 [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:02 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:03 < jl2012> Luke-Jr: I think the nature is a bit different. Bitcoin Wiki is more like Wikipedia, where you expect to read full articles. The 8333.info is more like a collection of links to related issues, and may also collect some immature ideas (which you won't expect in the Bitcoin Wiki) 05:04 < jl2012> Taek: What's the benefit of the github model over the wikipedia model? 05:04 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:05 < Taek> jl2012: you get strong tools for parsing history, and an easy way to clone/decentralize the repo. In general, I think it's easier to use git when trying to make copies or backups than it is to use standard wiki tools 05:06 < Taek> I also prefer looking at PRs and having discussions over github's issue tracker, though perhaps that is just because it's what is familar to me 05:06 < fluffypony> I've always felt that git shows a train of thought / development a lot better than nearly everything else 05:07 < tulip> fluffypony: you've obviously not read Satoshis wxBitcoin commits. 05:07 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:08 < Taek> tuplip: satoshi was far from perfect 05:09 < Taek> *tulip ^ 05:09 * fluffypony hands Taek a tab button 05:10 < Taek> :O 05:10 < Taek> fluffypony: thanks 05:10 < jl2012> Taek: My purpose is not to generate idea through discussion, but as a central point to collect idea from somewhere else. For well documented discussion, I personnally prefer a forum like bitcointalk. Regrettably the SNR of bitcointalk has become so bad 05:11 < Taek> jl2012: people will inevitably disagree about what a page should look like. This will cause discussion 05:15 -!- matsjj [~matsjj@p20030089EA1342EDD00C82715F70EF2B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:16 -!- matsjj [~matsjj@p20030089EA1342EDD00C82715F70EF2B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:16 < jl2012> Taek: No, I'm not doing an encycopedia. For example, there won't be a page to explain what "segregated witness". Instead, just links pointing to related discussion and articles, so people should hardly disagree with the content 05:17 < Taek> Some topics have a lot of links that you could use, deciding which links belong and which don't could be a subject of controversy 05:17 < Taek> fwiw, thus far my knosys repo has had no contention whatsoever 05:18 < Taek> but... we have uesd the issue tracker to (rather unsuccessfully) to try and assign different pages to specific people 05:23 < jl2012> Taek: unless it is bluntly stupid I'd prefer to include it. And pointing out why a bad idea is bad is also useful, as we don't want to have the same bad idea again 05:25 < jl2012> It's not wikipedia, which only "correct" information or idea is expected 05:29 -!- mjerr [~mjerr@p5B20901A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:32 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:37 < Taek> jl2012: The other reason that gitian wikis are nice is that I can edit the pages from vim, something that is a bit more annoying to do in a standard wiki. 05:38 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@z113l3.static.ctm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:57 -!- melvster1 [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:58 < jl2012> Taek: I'm fine with any alternative solutions which is easy to setup 05:58 -!- LeMiner2 [LeMiner@5ED1AFBF.cm-7-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:12 -!- melvster1 [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 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[~cluckj@pool-108-16-231-242.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:39 -!- tripleslash [~triplesla@unaffiliated/imsaguy] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:42 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:43 < Taek> tulip: I was wrong with my numbers earlier. if you are intentionally choosing not to mine on a block that appears to be the product of selfish mining, you need a full 50% of the hashrate also choosing to not mine on that block. 07:44 < Taek> assuming the selfish miner is 34% hashrate, that means you need a full 75% of the honest hashrate to be following the same strategy 07:44 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@z113l3.static.ctm.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:45 -!- kanzure_ is now known as kanure 07:45 -!- kanure is now known as kanzure 07:45 -!- melvster1 [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:46 -!- sparetire_ [~sparetire@unaffiliated/sparetire] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:46 * Taek loses certainty 07:50 -!- roconnor_ [~roconnor@host-45-58-253-241.dyn.295.ca] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:52 < Taek> I'm pretty sure you can get the numbers to work, invaliding a 33% selfish mining attack and bringing the requirment back up to 51%, but I'll want to run the analysis again when I'm not so tired. 07:53 -!- roconnor [~roconnor@host-45-58-251-69.dyn.295.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:55 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@z113l3.static.ctm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:55 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@z113l3.static.ctm.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:57 -!- bit2017 [~linker@171.250.100.43] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:57 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@n182z6l196.static.ctm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:58 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@n182z6l196.static.ctm.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:59 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@n182z6l196.static.ctm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:59 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@n182z6l196.static.ctm.net] has quit [Client Quit] 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14:44 -!- docl [~docl@159.203.115.16] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:45 -!- SgtStroopwafel [~Chuck@s5597aba6.adsl.online.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:48 -!- SgtStroopwafel [~Chuck@s5597aba6.adsl.online.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:50 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:52 -!- pistdov [~pistdov@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/pistdov] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:52 < pistdov> wedge broken; and china is waking up; bull market is about to start; china will test going beyond $500usd per btc 14:53 -!- Erik_dc [~erik@d54C620ED.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:53 -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:54 < kanzure> off-topic, wrong channel. 14:57 < andytoshi> pistdov: please use #bitcoin-pricetalk for that (and check which window you're in if you leave -wizards open :)) 14:57 < pistdov> oh i already have my prophetic idea of what he majority of the blockchain 14:57 < pistdov> will be used for after 2020, more into 2025 time frame 14:57 < pistdov> that will disrupt not just finance 14:57 < pistdov> but im keeping that idea private ;) 14:59 -!- matsjj [~matsjj@p5B20901A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:59 -!- matsjj [~matsjj@p5B20901A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:03 -!- tromp [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:04 -!- justice [~textual@HSI-KBW-46-223-37-131.hsi.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:06 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:10 -!- arubi [~ese168@unaffiliated/arubi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:16 -!- licnep [uid4387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tlddemufjnpmytpu] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 15:19 -!- 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[6426b21d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.100.38.178.29] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:53 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:53 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:57 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:03 -!- Yoghur114_2 [~jorn@g227014.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:04 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@z113l3.static.ctm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:04 -!- tromp [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:06 -!- licnep [uid4387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ofmxbmjxalyykyvb] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:09 -!- tromp [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:09 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:10 -!- TBI [~TBI@20.84-48-195.nextgentel.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:10 -!- gocrazy [~gocrazey@69.7.121.63] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:12 -!- TBI_ [~TBI@84.48.195.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:16 -!- syriven [~logan@24.237.158.7] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:16 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:17 < syriven> I'm working on a virtual marketplace server for IoT. Not sure if this is the right place to talk about this, but I'd love to share the source if anyone is interested in this kind of project. 16:18 < syriven> Basically, it's a server that processes marketplace-appropriate actions. Because the activity is off-chain, $0.01 of BTC pays for thousands or even millions of commands, depending on the exact nature of the usage 16:18 < syriven> if Bitcoin is the money for the IoT, this project (which I'm calling netvend) aims to be the marketplace. 16:18 -!- phantomcircuit [phantomcir@2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:fe73:6892] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:19 < kanzure> that sounds like a topic more appropriate for #bitcoin 16:19 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:20 < syriven> gotcha, thanks 16:20 -!- syriven [~logan@24.237.158.7] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 16:21 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:24 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@rrcs-74-87-213-251.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:27 -!- atgreen_ [~green@CPE687f74122463-CM00fc8d24cab0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:28 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:29 < dgenr8> Taek: I think your idea would work with a sufficiently conservative gap paremeter, and have proposed exactly the same thing for transactions. a <10% minority of mining can economically dis-incentivize anything it likes. if the "thing" is socially positive, others would likely jump on board. 16:30 -!- phantomcircuit [phantomcir@2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:fe73:6892] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:32 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-139-55-215-201.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:33 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@z113l3.static.ctm.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:36 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:36 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@z113l3.static.ctm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:40 -!- ggreer_ [~ggreer@162.243.155.78] has quit [Changing host] 16:40 -!- ggreer_ [~ggreer@unaffiliated/angryparsley] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:40 -!- ggreer_ is now known as ggreer 16:40 -!- wallet421 [~wallet42@z113l3.static.ctm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:40 -!- wallet421 [~wallet42@z113l3.static.ctm.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:40 -!- wallet421 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:40 -!- wallet42 is now known as Guest2053 16:40 -!- Guest2053 [~wallet42@z113l3.static.ctm.net] has quit [Killed (adams.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))] 16:40 -!- wallet421 is now known as wallet42 16:48 -!- Monthrect is now known as Piper-Off 16:50 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:53 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-139-55-215-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:04 -!- smk [59f8ac79@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.248.172.121] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:05 -!- tromp [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:09 -!- tromp [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:10 -!- fabianfabian [~fabianfab@5ED15F42.cm-7-2b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: why] 17:16 -!- RoboTedd_ [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:20 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:20 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:20 -!- RoboTedd_ [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:31 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-56-58-117.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:33 -!- bramc [~bram@208.80.64.187] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:34 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f11db5b.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:35 -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@175.45.73.100] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:39 -!- Jeremy_Rand is now known as Jeremy_Rand_ 17:39 -!- Jeremy_Rand_ is now known as Jeremy_Rand__ 17:39 -!- Jeremy_Rand__ is now known as Jeremy_Rand 17:40 -!- smk [59f8ac79@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.248.172.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:41 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-evjuxiloubrszvsz] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 17:42 < bramc> What's the url for the github of the proof of space implementation? 17:46 < bramc> Found it: https://github.com/kwonalbert/spacemint 17:47 -!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@unaffiliated/king-rex/x-3258444] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 17:52 < jannes__> bramc: is that actually a thing now, Proof of Space? Or is it still in the same category as PoStake? 17:58 < Tiraspol> bramc thanks for bittorent i love u long time 17:58 -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@175.45.73.100] has quit [Quit: GGuyZ] 18:04 -!- tromp [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:05 -!- andytoshi [~andytoshi@unaffiliated/andytoshi] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:07 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:08 -!- tromp [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:09 < CautiousNarwhal> what is proof-of-space? how many proof-of's are there? 18:10 < bramc> jannes__, Proofs of space are a 'real' thing in that there's a coherent goal which makes sense. It's very technical though and the practical question of its viability is very much an open question. It isn't like proof of stake where on top of a zillion technical issues even the goal isn't that compelling. 18:12 < jannes__> bramc: cool. thx. 18:14 < bramc> CautiousNarwhal, Proof of space is a proof which requires memory/disk be allocated and proves those resources were taken up but requires only minimal time and power for the proof to be generated 18:15 < bramc> CautiousNarwhal, All non-resource proofs are referred to as proof of stake. The resource based proofs are -work (meaning power) -space and -time 18:16 < bramc> There are also proofs which combine multiple resources, they're generally still referred to as proofs of work 18:17 -!- andytoshi [~andytoshi@wpsoftware.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:22 < kanzure> "To continue with my theme about the bias towards action, I would note the following. Suppose that one periodically samples a random variable to decide whether the correct action is to leave some situation alone, or to intervene. Assuming that one continues sampling after getting back "do nothing", but that an "intervene" decision is final, it should be clear that "intervene" will always win eventually, if the random variable has ... 18:22 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:22 < kanzure> ... even a tiny probability of coming up "intervene", even if the vast majority of the probability mass is on "do nothing". So in light of that, if one is going to continue to stand around and talk about intervening, one should probably bias further and further away from intervening as time passes, to account for the fact that eventually the coin will come up "intervene" through bad luck no matter what the correct decision is." 18:27 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:30 -!- shesek [~shesek@bzq-84-110-110-139.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:31 -!- funkenstein_ [~bowler@unaffiliated/funkenstein] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:33 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:38 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:38 < bramc> kanzure, That is true, but what are you quoting from? 18:38 < kanzure> gwillen 18:39 < bramc> This is also a basic concept in UX, that if you want people to do something you should make it easy to do but not un-do and repeatedly remind them of the possibility of doing it. 18:39 < gwillen> bramc: yes, it's a great dark pattern in forcing people to upgrade things against their will 18:39 < bramc> This is also a big factor in why many people have children. 18:39 < gwillen> it's a great dark pattern in a lot of things, honestly, which was sort of bubbling to the surface when I wrote that comment 18:39 < gwillen> hah! I hadn't thought about that. 18:40 < gwillen> Having children also shares (with the dark UX pattern) that it's easy to do by accident if you're not careful. 18:40 < bramc> There are a lot of dark patterns involved in people having children. Including that whole sex being fun thing. It's there to trick you. 18:40 < gwillen> Heh. 18:41 < gwillen> kanzure: I'm glad you liked my comment enough to quote it, that makes me feel more like it was worth the time to write :-) 18:41 < bramc> There was a big of dialogue on the Larry Sander show once: "This was an accident!" "So what you're saying is that you tripped and your penis slid into her vagina?" 18:42 < kanzure> gwillen: really i'm just excited that the site is dying. 18:42 < gwillen> hahahahaha. 18:42 < sipa> what site? 18:42 < gwillen> lesswrong.com 18:42 < gwillen> that's where I left the comment that kanzure is quoting 18:42 < kanzure> hopefully my friends will stop wasting time there and move on to more productive things 18:42 < gwillen> hah 18:43 < gwillen> I don't know that the second part follows from the first part 18:43 < gwillen> they might just move to the slatestarcodex comment section instead; that's pretty much what I've done 18:43 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-139-55-215-201.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:43 < kanzure> yes but at least slatestarcodex doesn't mistake itself for something else 18:44 < bramc> What's happening with lesswrong? Its front page doesn't say it's shutting down. 18:44 < kanzure> bramc: slow death. 18:45 < kanzure> theoretically the reason for the site was that they were going to create a number of people that were strong with reasoning and engineering ability and go forth and do good things in the world, but i am not convinced of the results. instead we got a bunch of hpmor fans and endless rationalization. anyway, this is starting to venture into off-topic... 18:46 < gwillen> it's a bit offtopic, yeah 18:51 -!- funkenstein_ [~bowler@unaffiliated/funkenstein] has left #bitcoin-wizards ["Leaving"] 18:54 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:56 -!- atgreen_ [~green@CPE687f74122463-CM00fc8d24cab0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:01 < CautiousNarwhal> you guys are all over the place 19:05 < amiller> has anyone gotten el33th4x0r's message to bitcoin-dev to compile 19:05 < amiller> i think it might be in remorse4ever 19:06 < kanzure> i don't see anything in the moderation queue 19:19 -!- atgreen_ [~green@CPE687f74122463-CM00fc8d24cab0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:41 -!- TD--Linux is now known as TD-Linux 19:41 -!- TD-Linux [~Thomas@kyoko.thomasdaede.com] has quit [Changing host] 19:41 -!- TD-Linux [~Thomas@about/essy/indecisive/TD-Linux] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:43 -!- arowser [~quassel@106.120.101.38] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 19:43 -!- arowser [~quassel@106.120.101.38] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:55 -!- bramc [~bram@208.80.64.187] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:02 < Taek> gmaxwell: at some point you gave a presentation exploring different types of signatures. There was ecdsa + ecdsa multisig, schnorr multisig, and then some type of polynomial signature? 20:02 < Taek> I'm having trouble finding that presentation 20:02 -!- ratbanebo [~ratbanebo@2a02:1812:1515:2400:4dde:c8d5:7fe3:a67f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:02 < Taek> I seem to remember that schnorr, while having the best compression, don't have a way to tell you who signed a thing 20:03 < Taek> but the other type of signature offered decent compression and also allowed you to learn who participated in signing 20:04 < gmaxwell> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYQ-3VvNCHE the second part of this, ACEup 20:06 < maaku> Taek: also, the key tree talk by sipa is a continuation of that work 20:07 < Taek> thanks! 20:07 < maaku> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcQLWeFmpYg 20:26 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:27 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 20:36 -!- tromp [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:40 -!- tromp [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:42 -!- bramc [~bram@208.80.64.187] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:52 -!- bramc [~bram@208.80.64.187] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:55 -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:55 -!- [7] [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:57 -!- ratbanebo [~ratbanebo@2a02:1812:1515:2400:4dde:c8d5:7fe3:a67f] has quit [] 20:59 -!- tripleslash [~triplesla@unaffiliated/imsaguy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:02 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:04 < kanzure> .title 21:04 < yoleaux> SF Bitcoin Devs Seminar: Key Tree Signatures - YouTube 21:06 -!- CautiousNarwhal [6426b21d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.100.38.178.29] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 21:08 -!- Burrito [~Burrito@unaffiliated/burrito] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:17 < pistdov> hello fellow wizards 21:18 < pistdov> smigol, hand over the bitcoin ring to others in here, so they can communicate with lord sauron 21:21 < sipa> ? 21:22 -!- kisspunch [~za3k@za3k.com] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 21:22 -!- sparetire_ [~sparetire@unaffiliated/sparetire] has quit [Quit: sparetire_] 21:22 -!- kisspunch [~za3k@za3k.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:23 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@rrcs-74-87-213-251.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:26 -!- adam3us [~Adium@141.8.72.43] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:26 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:28 -!- adam3us [~Adium@141.8.72.43] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:28 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:30 -!- bramc [~bram@2604:5500:20:4f3:f8d0:f49b:f764:dfc7] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:33 -!- shesek [~shesek@bzq-84-110-34-170.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:38 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:39 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:53 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:55 -!- tromp [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:56 -!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:56 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:11 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:12 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:20 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:20 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:21 -!- tromp [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:30 -!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has quit [] 22:31 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:31 -!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:33 -!- RoboTedd_ [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:35 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:38 -!- RoboTedd_ [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:40 -!- pistdov [~pistdov@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/pistdov] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:44 -!- roconnor_ [~roconnor@host-45-58-253-241.dyn.295.ca] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 22:51 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:306:b8e0:8160:9d49:902d:4b04:7afc] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:53 -!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has quit [] 22:54 < jl2012> If the scriptPubKey is OP_1, could it be spent with nothing in scriptSig? 22:57 < tulip> jl2012: yes. 22:59 < jl2012> tulip: thanks 22:59 < tulip> a blank scriptPubKey as well, is spendable by anyone. 23:00 < jl2012> ok. My focus is whether it is allowed to have a completely empty (not even a OP_0) scriptSig 23:02 -!- davec_ [~davec@cpe-24-243-251-52.hot.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:04 -!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:14 -!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has quit [] 23:22 -!- tromp [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:26 -!- tromp [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:27 -!- bramc [~bram@2604:5500:20:4f3:f8d0:f49b:f764:dfc7] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:28 -!- Terry4 [~Terry4@garza.riseup.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:43 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:54 -!- CautiousNarwhal [ad03d8c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.173.3.216.198] has joined #bitcoin-wizards --- Log closed Sun Dec 13 00:00:35 2015