--- Log opened Sun Dec 13 00:00:35 2015
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00:03 < CubicEarth> jl2012: I like you UTXO idea
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00:09 < CubicEarth> I think the least controversial way to go about it would be to only archive UTXOs starting after some future block.  That way it wouldn't be retroactive.
00:11 < gmaxwell> CubicEarth: I don't see why.
00:11 < gmaxwell> and getting rid of the gigabyte of deadweight is probably more important than anything else.
00:12 < gmaxwell> Petertodd actually proposed basically the same idea to litecoin a couple years ago and was supposted to get paid to do it, but decided to drop the contract to focus on other things.
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00:13 < tulip> CubicEarth: a reasonable portion of the UTXO today is junk, heuristically there's a huge amount of outputs which are likely just ASCII text.
00:16 < jl2012> CubicEarth: my proposal makes sure all spendable UTXO are still spendable, even if the signature was made before the softfork. All they need is an archive node to complete the membership proof
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00:18 < jl2012> tulip: also those "you lose" outputs from SatoshiDice
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00:21 < CubicEarth> gmaxwell: Only because when a utxo is created today, it is with the assumption that it can be spent in a certain way, which is by creating a transaction of a certain type
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00:22 < gmaxwell> CubicEarth: that doesn't change. (well the p2p protocol changes, has changed many times, and will change)
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00:26 < CubicEarth> gmaxwell: under the proposal, a sender of a dormant utxo has to include - in my own words here - a merkle "map" of where to find utxo in blockchain so that it can be readily found and verified.  That's an extra requirement.  But let me just be clear:  The extra step doesn't bother me at all... I was just trying to anticipate criticism from the more ideological people in the community.
00:28 < gmaxwell> It's not actually an extra requirement though.
00:28 < gmaxwell> Consider, say you have a private key. Can you create a transaction using that? No. You need a map to the coins assigned to it.
00:29 < gmaxwell> Can you get that map from a p2p bitcoin node? No.
00:29 < gmaxwell> You have to either run a full node yourself, or consult some special public index.
00:29 < gmaxwell> Which is exactly the same thing jl2012's writeup needs... just it would send a bit more data.
00:38 < CubicEarth> gmaxwell: What's a p2p node that isn't a full node?
00:39 < CubicEarth> spv?
00:39 < CubicEarth> or...?
00:39 < CodeShark> we need new terminology :)
00:39 < CodeShark> the concept of a "full node" is becoming less and less meaningful
00:39 < tulip> in the original Satoshi code a "node" is one which is mining.
00:40 < tulip> "To support the network by running a node, select: Options->Generate Coins"
00:41 < gmaxwell> CubicEarth: where did you get "isn't a full node"?
00:41 < CodeShark> we have at least two orthogonal dimensions here: full/partial validation and complete/pruned history
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00:42 < gmaxwell> CubicEarth: no node speaking the bitcoin protocol will act as a blockchain index server.
00:42 < CodeShark> and mining was pulled out of nodes a long time ago
00:43 < tulip> 2015-12-13 08:42:57 BitcoinMiner started
00:43 < tulip> 2015-12-13 08:42:57 Running BitcoinMiner with 7 transactions in block (5305 bytes)
00:44 < CodeShark> tulip: Bitcoin Core still has a built-in miner...but it's only really useful for testnet and regtest
00:44 < moa> it's a natural splintering into specialised layers what the original prototype client did wholistically
00:44 < CubicEarth> gmaxwell: I thought you were contrasting a "p2p bitcoin node" with a "full node", but I might have misunderstood.
00:45 < CubicEarth> moa: yes.  It's great to watch.
00:46 < CodeShark> satoshi's model consisted of two types of nodes - full nodes and SPV nodes...and only the details for the former were really spelled out - and it served its purpose...it was a great proof-of-concept using simplifying assumptions
00:47 < CodeShark> but it was really a prototype :)
00:47 < CodeShark> now we need to drop some of the simplifying assumptions and work more towards a layered architecture
00:47 < gmaxwell> CubicEarth: you misunderstood. :)
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00:50 < CodeShark> in the end, a "full bitcoin node" makes about as much sense as a "full Internet node"
00:51 < CodeShark> in particular, the word "full" is superfluous at best and inaccurate at worst, depending on interpretation ;)
00:53 < CubicEarth> We need a nomenclature committee
00:53 < CodeShark> it's interesting to note that in the satoshi white paper, the term "full network node" is only used once...in the SPV section
00:53 < gmaxwell> this is all a tangent.
00:54 < gmaxwell> because, even the fullest of full nodes, won't provide over the network the service cubicearth's assumptions required of them.
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00:57 < CodeShark> I'm not familiar with CubicEarth's assumptions, but in any case the terminology is confusing
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00:58 < CubicEarth> CodeShark: gmaxwell: I'm not sure I am familiar with my own assumptions, to be honest
00:58 < gmaxwell> heh
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01:07 < CodeShark> if I could redesign Bitcoin from scratch with the benefit of hindsight, I'd define the consensus layer solely by cryptographic commitment structures independent of network messages and network serializations
01:08 < CodeShark> with the objective of enabling short, efficient proofs
01:09 < CodeShark> and allow for potentially more than one network protocol for message propagation and synchronization
01:09 < CodeShark> i.e. with git you can use http, ftp, ssh, etc...
01:09 < tulip> you can definitely understand why Bitcoins P2P network is built the way it is though, it evolved rather than being defined.
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01:13 < CubicEarth> CodeShark: would say the relaynetwork is an example of an "network protocol for message propagation and synchronization"?
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01:13 < CodeShark> sure, why not?
01:13 < tulip> it was pretty late in the design that the block header gained a version for example, they used to be 76 bytes long.
01:14 < CubicEarth> CodeShark: I agree.
01:15 < CodeShark> bitcoin started out as an academic proof-of-concept...and academic project implementations tend to largely ignore long-term extensibility and maintainability concerns because they are really designed to demonstrate an abstract idea
01:16 < CodeShark> not to build a platform upon which an entire global industry can operate
01:17 < CodeShark> usually, if the idea works, later on other people figure out how to implement it in more practical ways - problem with Bitcoin is it can't simply be restarted without disenfranchising early adopters
01:18 < CodeShark> and now it's even more complicated because any such attempt is likely to splinter the effort
01:20 < CodeShark> it's a prototype aircraft that must be upgraded while in flight and can never land
01:21 < tulip> I don't think it is presented like that, the first unreleased version maybe, but later on it is clearly designed to be a real-world system.
01:21 < CodeShark> "presented to be" yes - "designed to be" not so much
01:22 < CodeShark> the catch is that to demonstrate this idea a real currency had to be created
01:22 < CodeShark> which de facto turned it into a real-world system
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01:24 < CubicEarth> Well in some respects, yes it was, considering the address space, the number of satoshis, were very generous in their resolution.  But in other respects I can see your point.
01:25 < tulip> CubicEarth: in the 2008 source code there's considerably less precision.
01:25 < CubicEarth> Oh yeah?
01:26 < gmaxwell> yes it was originally cent resolution.
01:26 < gmaxwell> the 21e6 bitcoin limit comes from the size of a signed integer.
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01:27 < gmaxwell> It's the limit arising from highest 'round number' of coin per block reward that will fit into an unsigned int with cent resolution.
01:29 < aj> gmaxwell: you mean a signed int?
01:30 < gmaxwell> I said it right the first time. :P
01:30 < tulip> aj: it's signed, that's why an underflow of the value created billions of coins in 2009.
01:30 < aj> gmaxwell: ahh, taking a bet both ways. clever!
01:31 < gmaxwell> "spread spectrum"
01:31 < gmaxwell> I've noticed when talking lately I've said one when I meant the other.
01:32 < gmaxwell> but when coding, I don't think I've ever made an error like that. werid.
01:32 < CodeShark> I think satoshi was the other way around :p
01:32 < CubicEarth> gmaxwell: what is/was the absolute highest value of that signed int?
01:33 < CodeShark> 2^63 - 1
01:33 < tulip> CubicEarth: unsigned.
01:33 < gmaxwell> int, not long. :)  2^31 -1 :)
01:34 < aj> 2^31-1 gives 21.47483648 *100 million
01:34 < aj> gmaxwell: int, not long long ym :)
01:34 < gmaxwell> (LP64 forever!)
01:36 < CodeShark> lol - even the C language has its design flaws :p
01:36 < CodeShark> mixing application level stuff with hardware-specific stuff
01:36 < aj> they're not flaws, they're implementation defined features
01:37 < CodeShark> in principle, an "int" should be whatever integer datatype is best supported natively by the architecture, IMO...and we should be specific when we require a certain width
01:37 < gmaxwell> (2^31-1) implies 51.1305 coins per block, if there is cent resolution, with bitcoin's inflation schedule.
01:39 < CodeShark> we should not rely on "int" being a specific width
01:39 < CubicEarth> I had though the 21-Million had to do with the exponentially decreasing reward series.  But the series was 'targeted' at 21 million after the fact, it seems by setting the having every 210,000 blocks.
01:39 < CodeShark> unless we are writing specifically for a certain architecture and portability is not really a concern
01:40 < CubicEarth> having every 190,000 blocks would probably yield 19,000,000 coins, i'm guessing
01:44 < aj> CodeShark: int being "whatever's fast" makes sense if you're recompiling code on new hardware and living with whatever the hardware's limits are, not so much if you want programs on different hardware to interoperate
01:46 < CodeShark> right - as long as you're well below the overflow...or for things like pointer arithmetic...it makes sense to just use ints. but if your datatype specifically requires n bits it is bad style to rely on the hardware specs, IMO...and it's far better to have a library of datatypes of specific width implemented optimally for the specific hardware
01:49 < CubicEarth> A formal specification would help a lot.  Maybe there should be two - an economic specification, and a technical one
01:49 < CodeShark> CubicEarth: Σ τ(ri * 2^(-k)), k = [0, ∞
01:49 < CodeShark> CubicEarth: Σ τ(ri * 2^(-k)), k = [0, ∞)
01:50 < CubicEarth> CodeShark: Nice!
01:50 < gmaxwell> CubicEarth: in this space specifications are mostly useful as retorical tools.
01:50 < CodeShark> where ri is the initial block reward and τ is the halving integral
01:50 < CodeShark> err
01:50 < CodeShark> halving interval
01:50 < gmaxwell> Because at the end of the day what _counts_ is what the network does; not what some dirty woodpulp says.
01:51 < gmaxwell> And if something is right to do, it's right to do on its own merits; not because some dirty woodpulp says so.
01:51 < gmaxwell> Or wrong to do.
01:51 < gmaxwell> Now specs can be useful to help level set-- but _documentation_ in general does that, and we have a bunch of that (though need much more)
01:52 < CodeShark> Σ τ(ri * 2^(-k)) = τ*ri Σ 2^(-k) = 2τ*ri :)
01:52 < CubicEarth> well perhaps just the economic spec then.
01:53 < Luke-Jr> CubicEarth: like https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Prohibited_changes ?
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01:56 < CodeShark> it's sorta funny looking at that document in light of the events of the last several months
01:57 < CodeShark> changes that affect costs of running nodes also have economic impact
01:57 < Luke-Jr> CodeShark: it's a wiki, update it ;)
01:57 < CubicEarth> something like that, but I was imagining something much more formalized.  It's be interesting to see just how widespread the agreement would be around such a document, and how to measure such agreement.
01:58 < CodeShark> arguably even more short-term economic impact than, say, increasing the asymptotic limit of issued bitcoins
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02:01 < CubicEarth> It would be from the users perspective... what they want and expect in their financial system.
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02:02 < CubicEarth> and the goal of the tech would be to serve those interests
02:03 < gmaxwell> codeshark: yea, a change to subsidy = max(subsidy, 1.0 btc) would have no direct effect for a great many years... but woah would it have an effect now.
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02:04 < CodeShark> I think more important than the enduser's perspective are the economic and security properties of the system and how well the system can be maintained and improved
02:04 < CodeShark> if done right, endusers shouldn't even have to know anything ;)
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02:07 < CodeShark> i.e. if the system cannot be self-sustaining economically...or can be subverted by hostile entities...it's probably not a good thing :)
02:07 < CubicEarth> CodeShark: You could almost say that about the current financial system... most end users don't know anything about it, yet they are getting deceived and ripped off by a very sophisticated financial apparatus
02:08 < moa> they perceive a net benefit or they would disengage
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02:09 < gmaxwell> Benefits come in many shapes and sizes.
02:10  * gmaxwell points to the existance of smokers: a product that provably kills its users, but slowly enough that its still widely used
02:11 < CodeShark> gmaxwell: makes a salient point...bitcoin should be designed such that failures are immediate and containable :)
02:12 < CubicEarth> moa: in the current financial system there isn't much of an alternative, yet :) , and in monopoly situations there isn't much choice.  As for disengaging with bitcoin, currently bitcoin has many benefits to offer relative to its surroundings, but as the system matures, it will have to adopt finer-grained social optimizations to keep it's standing or to grow very very large.
02:12 < CubicEarth> moa: I'm not disagreeing though
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02:20 < CubicEarth> Think about a body of law (the kind a state has, written with words) that centered around the Bitcoin economic model.  There is clearly an economic theory the white paper and code point.  What would it sound like to have that formalized, in English (or other) and with equations.  Not with computer code.
02:21 < CubicEarth> "The total number of Bitcoins shall not exceed 21,000,000"
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02:22 < CubicEarth> "A Bitcoin is composed of 100 million subunits"
02:22 < gmaxwell> wait, what if we the people want to increase the precision?
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02:23 < CubicEarth> They could change the spec
02:23 < CubicEarth> (and then the code)
02:23 < gmaxwell> but the spec would mostly be used as a retorical device to argue for or against changes. thats like ... all it would actually be used for. :)
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02:25 < CubicEarth> Yes.  It would be helpful for non-technical people to understand the basis for their money.  A large institution could hire a technical person and ask them if the code did what the spec sheet said.
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02:25 < gmaxwell> I'm just saying, writing in details that aren't actually important would only create drama.
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02:26 < CubicEarth> Yes, retorical in the sense that people would use it to communicate with each other to gain a better understanding of the world around them :)
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02:26 < gmaxwell> I think the precision is a technical detail, which better not matter economically.
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02:26 < CubicEarth> Maybe the spec sheet should say
02:26 < CubicEarth> ...
02:27 < CubicEarth> "And each bitcoin shall have enough units too do x....."
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02:27 < CubicEarth> People like things to read
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02:28 < CubicEarth> Helps them to understand stuff
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02:29 < CubicEarth> Or to help answer this question
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02:29 < CubicEarth> "As a user, what can I expect from bitcoin?"  (sorry I keep hitting return by accident between lines)
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02:33 < Luke-Jr> CubicEarth: "nothing. it's an experiment."
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02:40 < jannes__> I sent an email to dev mailing list the other day about Segregated IBLT. Kalle Rosenbaum politely pointed to the flaw in my thinking. The idea was to save a few bytes by reducing the redundancy slightly for only the signatures but not the naked transactions.
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02:40 < jannes__> Would it make sense to use k=3 for naked transaction slices, but k=2 for signatuture slices? (k being number of hashes performed on each slice)
02:41 < CubicEarth> Luke-Jr: That's either a tounge-in-cheek or cynical
02:41 < CubicEarth> I can't tell
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02:42 < CubicEarth> Unless you consider everything to be an experiment, at some point Bitcoin will stop being experimental and become 'normal' or 'stable' or whatever you want to call something when it is no longer experimental.
02:42 < jannes__> CubicEarth: I've never seen him non-serious.
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02:43 < Luke-Jr> CubicEarth: at some point, Bitcoin *may* stop being experimental; but we're far from that point today still
02:43 < Luke-Jr> jannes__: I'm quite often less than 100% serious ;)
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02:44 < CubicEarth> Luke-Jr: That may be true, but that does not mean users should expect 'nothing'
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02:44 < CodeShark> perhaps it would be better to ask app developers rather than users
02:45 < Luke-Jr> CubicEarth: what exactly do you think they can expect? there are no guarantees. everything is an experiment available as-is.
02:45 < CubicEarth> Luke-Jr: Everything, or bitcoin as it is today
02:45 < CubicEarth> ?
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02:45 < Luke-Jr> CubicEarth: I wouldn't even promise 0.12.0 won't have a bug that loses all its users' bitcoins
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02:45 < Luke-Jr> I mean, it's unlikely.. but it's not impossible.
02:45 < jannes__> Luke-Jr: my conclusion came from lack of data. :)
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02:47 < CubicEarth> Luke-Jr: It's not even about any software that you may or may not write.  The can expect there to be a limit of 21m coins, for instance, with the software they have today.  That is not an expectation of you.
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02:47 < jannes__> CubicEarth: It would probably be better if they would expect 'nothing'. Judging by the trolling on reddit and forums, a lot of them already expect to be millionaires before 2016 is out.
02:48 < Luke-Jr> CubicEarth: okay, I concede that expectation is reasonable.
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02:49 < CubicEarth> Luke-Jr: Are there any other reasonable expectations?  Or is that the only one?
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02:51 < CodeShark> it's a rather superficial expectation, IMHO, from the perspective of an end user - it's just an arbitrary number. a more profound expectation is something along the lines of "nobody can unilaterally decide to inflate the money supply nor counterfeit coins"
02:51 < Luke-Jr> CubicEarth: not adding things like demurrage seems like a reasonable expectation also - but I don't know if it's a good one
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02:54 < CubicEarth> Luke-Jr: do you think that demurrage could be a more efficient way to pay for security in the future?
02:55 < Luke-Jr> CubicEarth: it also means UTXOs effectively pay rent on their database entry
02:55 < Luke-Jr> right now that's no cost
02:55 < CubicEarth> Luke-Jr: yes.
02:56 < CodeShark> they should pay rent by the square foot…not by how much gold rests atop that square foot :)
02:56 < CubicEarth> CodeShark: Yes.
02:56 < Luke-Jr> but someone did recently post an alternate idea to the dev ML that can make them no longer no-cost, without demurrage
02:56 < CubicEarth> CodeShark: so by the square foot, not the CubicFoot
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02:57 < CodeShark> convert to your unit of choice :p
02:57 < Luke-Jr> CodeShark: it's harder to figure logic for that
02:58 < CodeShark> Luke-Jr: yes, the mechanism is tricky but the incentive structure is better :)
02:58 < CubicEarth> The idea that "no one should be able to freeze a users funds" is an interesting one.
02:59 < CodeShark> that one requires qualification in light of multiuser scripts ;)
02:59 < jannes__> What Luke-Jr is referring to, sounds pretty good:  http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/011952.html
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03:00 < CubicEarth> jannes__: Yes.  It is a simple, seemingly solid plan.
03:01 < gmaxwell> jl2012's scheme is a reinvention of Petertodd's STXO, I must remind.
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03:01 < jannes__> gmaxwell: yeah you mentioned that there :)
03:05 < CodeShark> did the STXO proposal specifically mention only requiring this for outputs that are at least of some particular age?
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03:06 < CodeShark> if so I hadn't heard of that part
03:06 < jannes__> gmaxwell: BTW respect for how much patience you have with trolls. It's good for other readers, even if the trolls refuse to want to understand. Too bad that the downvoting hides so much of it.
03:07 < gmaxwell> jannes__: thanks; that's why I do it.
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03:08 < gmaxwell> Good to hear that it's helpful from someone.
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03:08 < CodeShark> gmaxwell: at risk of repeating myself too many times, you really should publish more well-edited stuff in places that are easier for people to find so that those who are interested don't have to read through all the trollage to find it ;)
03:11 < jannes__> gmaxwell: Yeah absolutely is. I learn from it too. And I upvote where I can. The 1st few times you talked about quitting Bitcoin if XT takes over my heart skipped a few beats. But I totally agree with you. Please PM me, so I can sell the few coins I have. :)
03:11 < CodeShark> so correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems petertodd's innovation is placing the burden of proving existence/unspentness on the sender by committing to a TXO tree…and jl2012's innovation is only making this a requirement for outputs beyond a certain age
03:12 < gmaxwell> CodeShark: petertodd also proposed having a size limited utxo.
03:12 < gmaxwell> jl2012 suggests age, PT was suggesting that it just be FIFO and a fixed size.
03:12 < CubicEarth> gmaxwell: utxo or utxo set?
03:13 < gmaxwell> CubicEarth: always assume the thing that makes some sense? :) (the latter)
03:13 < jannes__> gmaxwell: In light of what CodeShark just said. I saw you mentioning StackExchange the other day and you didn't seem eager to join. Is that some (non) open source/wikipedia experience reason? Or just not interested in yet another account? I must say I find it one of the best resources for FAQs. Mostly because it's indexed so well by google.
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03:18 < CodeShark> gmaxwell: the FIFO thing makes the UTXO size constant…but it incurs more overhead in commitments (although perhaps amortizing this cost along the lines of what bramc has proposed could make it significantly less costly)
03:19 < gmaxwell> well, it could always be 'quantized fifo'... e.g. expire a big chunk at a time.
03:19 < gmaxwell> But if the size is small, the commitment scheme is cheap.
03:20 < CodeShark> the other problem I see with it is that it makes it harder for thin nodes to know when the full proof is required
03:21 < CodeShark> I suppose blocks could commit to the UTXO delta or something
03:21 < CodeShark> that is, how many net UTXO were created by the block
03:21 < gmaxwell> well, you could always just commit to how high (block height) the UTXO covers.
03:21 < CodeShark> yes, that too
03:22 < CodeShark> but that's essentially jl2012's proposal using a dynamic min age
03:22 < Luke-Jr> I wonder if there's a way to do STXO without consensus rules determining when they are required
03:22 < Luke-Jr> eg, make that a matter of policy
03:23 < CodeShark> it could be done - relay nodes could be queried to see whether they have a utxo…one more roundtrip in i/o
03:24 < CodeShark> but then we need the TXO commitment tree to always be current
03:25 < gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: well technically the utxo depth could be peer to peer negoiated.
03:25 < gmaxwell> e.g. if you have a small utxo, and a proof, but I have a big one, you clould just not send the proof to me.
03:26 < gmaxwell> But going the other direction requires generating a proof, which needs extra data.
03:26 < CodeShark> also, the negotiation isn't necessarily transitive :)
03:26 < CodeShark> what if the relay requires multiple hops?
03:26 < CodeShark> that would mean the higher utxo node would have to construct a proof
03:27 < CodeShark> and the incentive structure starts to get more complex
03:29 < CodeShark> for relay, the node could just use the policy of the smallest utxo node it is connected to, I suppose
03:30 < CodeShark> the sender has a clear incentive to get the tx propagated…but the relayer might require a fee in order to add a proof
03:31 < gmaxwell> If it always had the data to construct the proof then it would be no big deal.
03:31 < gmaxwell> Alas, thats extra data.
03:31 < gmaxwell> I suppose though someone who has all the data you could at least omit them.
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03:35 < CodeShark> in principle I like making these kinds of things a matter of policy…but in practice we need a way to provide direct monetary incentives, I think
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03:36 < CodeShark> there should be direct incentives for storing a large utxo as it cuts down on bandwidth requirements
03:37 < CodeShark> but it shouldn't be a requirement to run a relay node
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03:38 < CodeShark> however, it's not just a bandwidth/space tradeoff…such proofs also allow for greater granularity in partial validation
03:39 < CodeShark> you could get security between SPV and full validation
03:39 < CodeShark> i.e. nodes that are only interested in relaying certain kinds of transactions…or only interested in monitoring certain transactions
03:43 < moa> gold stars and a jelly bean if there's no tears
03:44 < moa> oops
03:47 < gmaxwell> CodeShark: I tihnk it would be super useful to communicate your minrelayfee.
03:47 < gmaxwell> like, why are people spamming you with crap you're just going to drop.
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03:48 < gmaxwell> I was thinking about how that could be handled transitively.. but the schemes I came up with all suffered from any cycles in the graph pinning state.
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03:49 < gmaxwell> e.g. what a node says it will relay is the max(self,min(other peers will relay)).
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03:58 < CodeShark> if the sender sends directly to the recipient and it's the recipient's responsibility to get it propagated, there could be other interesting types of negotiation
04:00 < CodeShark> i.e. someone who receives a large number of transactions might have an incentive to store a large utxo
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04:02 < CodeShark> in general, senders only really need to maintain proofs for their own utxos assuming they are ok with less-than-full-validator security
04:04 < CodeShark> regardless of incentive structure specifics, it's a good idea to design the commitment structures to afford a lot of flexibility in these matters
04:05 < CodeShark> the incentive structures can arise over time…especially as we improve upon 2nd layer protocols
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09:09 < Quent> Not sure if this is the right chan, but I couldn't find a better one. I was wondering whether there is any concrete reason why no one has tried forking the bitcoin chain with the aim of creating a concurrent chain, rather than creating a new coin with a new genesis block.
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09:10 < alpalp> Quent: I believe that has happened on some alt-coins.
09:10 < Quent> there have been tons of altcoins and everyone seems to have tried plenty of things, but did no one think to just fork bitcoin itself (prob quite unlikely) or am I missing something?
09:11 < Quent> and how did that go alpalp ?
09:11 < alpalp> IIRC Feathercoin did it from litecoin
09:13 < Quent> yeah, I haven't looked much into feathercoin, but it still "lives", I think, so I suppose there isn't anything technically or fundamentally wrong in the sense that it would make algochanged forking unworkable?
09:13 < Quent> so then why did everyone decide to start with a new genesis block and not one with a forked chain?
09:13 < smk> where is the profit in forking if you cant scoup up any premine
09:14 < alpalp> Quent: since the vast majority of altcoins are just get rich schemes, that doesn't work well if you can't premine a bunch and sell to rubes.
09:14 < Quent> was litecoin pre-mined?
09:14 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] Quent: Google "NameCoin"
09:14 < smk> bitcoin client is open source so you can (and many do) run versions with patched and subtle changes to their wallets
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09:15 < Quent> you'd think that any fork of bitcoin would be far superior to litecoin due to the in-built network effects, so making it worth quite a bit early on, but also easily minable, ergo profits
09:16 < Quent> problem is obviously current btc holders can sell it to death...
09:16 < Quent> I mean, it would be free money
09:16 < alpalp> Quent: you are assuming alt-coins are created for reasons other than trying to get free money.
09:16 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] NameCoin was the first blockchain that was merge-mined with Bitcoin and one of the earliest alt coins too.
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09:17 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] alpalp: Yeah, Satoshi had a good model.
09:17 < Quent> alpalp, some altcoins seem to have unique propositions, such as faster tx times (regardless of the merits) and higher privacy such as monero etc
09:18 < Quent> a forked bitcoinchain would basically be a sidechain but with no ability to go back
09:18 < sipa> Quent: an altcoin by definition resets the network effect... why does it matter whether you fork bitcoin or something else (there are good reasons for using bitcoin's codebase, but network effect seems.to be not one of them)
09:18 < alpalp> Quent: Agreed, but if you can create one where you can benefit, or other people benefit, which are you going to create?
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09:18 < alpalp> sipa: if you can distribute coins to a wider number of people in a "fair" way, it may trigger usage.  PayPal gave away free money to get going for example.
09:18 < Quent> alpalp, if it was my choice, I'd prob want bitcoin's network effect
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09:20 < Quent> obviously that network effect would diminish every day the fork goes on, but I just find it curious no one has even tried, making me wonder whether the idea itself is unworkable
09:20 < alpalp> Quent: that would assume Bitcoin users would find it useful, and the initial dump phase might make that an issue.
09:21 < alpalp> Quent: If someone did that, I would dump my free alt-coins for whatever price I could get.  I imagine quite a lot of others do the same.
09:21 < Quent> well, it would depend wouldn't it
09:21 < Quent> if the forkcoin is clearly a looser then sure, but if it has at least one decent ups you'd expect the vast majority to hold out
09:22 < Quent> there would be some complex games for sure, but my point is why has no one even tried
09:22 < alpalp> It would depend if it were superior money or not.  Thats the only thing I would judge it on.  And I find it highly unlikely that it would be superior, and even if it were, its changes would have to be made in a way it would be completely incompatible with Bitcoin and could not be merged in.
09:23 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] Quent: Forking the blockchain/reusing the UTXO set has happened too, see Peter R's spinoffs (BCT) or Stellar.
09:23 < Quent> I was just reading that thread MRL-Relay, haven't finished it yet
09:24 < Quent> but, for example, zerocoin could be a fork of bitcoin...
09:24 < Quent> rather than a new genesis, if it s possible for it to be a fork of course
09:25 < Quent> in that situation I don't think you'd just sell it because you would not know of it's value, so probably the vast majority would hold out
09:25 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] That's basically the logic between the sidechains series of alt coins, except using a new blockchain and pegging to tokens.
09:26 < alpalp> Quent: The value would almost always be 0, and anyone paying more would be giving me free money
09:27 < Quent> feathercoin isn't valued at 0
09:28 < alpalp> If you gave me feathercoin, I would sell all of it as fast as I could.
09:28 < Quent> but yeah, there is a free money aspect
09:28 < Quent> I mean, in many ways it is a huge pre-mine
09:28 < alpalp> so as long as someone will pay me anything for it
09:29 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] (this is more #cryptocurrency)
09:29 < Quent> but I wouldn't sell a zeroforcoin for example
09:29 < Quent> and MRL-Relay, I don't think so, it isn't much different than sidechains
09:30 < alpalp> sidechains can come back home
09:30 < Quent> except that sidechains allow you to go back
09:30 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] No I mean, this channel is usually for discussion of papers or math
09:30 < Quent> yeah
09:30 < Quent> well, no other discussion is happening right now...
09:31 < alpalp> That doesn't mean we should discuss the score of some football games going on in here.
09:31 < Quent> it does mean you can just ignore and not take part in the discussion as would be the case if the discussion was score games
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09:32 < Quent> but, anyway
09:32 < Quent> if you want to go back to dead chan that's cool
09:32 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] Quent: s/n is tried to be kept high here because a number of the people reading scrollback work in the field and try to keep up with everything going on from an academic perspective, it's hard when it gets cluttered
09:32 < Quent> I just thought it was an interesting topic
09:32 < Quent> for the wizzards
09:32 < alpalp> And you are being told repeatedly its off topic for this chan.
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10:56 < lmatteis> guys i've been having this idea and i'd be interested in learning whether it's not just mumbo jumbo but rather something interesting.
10:57 < lmatteis> imagine a blockchain (outside of bitcoin) which is only used as a timestamp server; no transactions. every 60 minutes a block is found which essentially contains the "top news of that latest hour" - an ordered set of items.
10:58 < lmatteis> the miner that wins the pow, and finds the block, chains it with the latest one, and can decide the contents of the latest hot news
10:58 < sipa> what is the incentive?
10:58 < sipa> why do you need a consensus system for this?
10:59 < bsm117532> It's already being done with different kinds of data on top of bitcoin in OP_RETURN.  What's the point of "latest hot news"?
10:59 < sipa> what is wrong with a website that aggregates upvotes instead?
10:59 < lmatteis> as the difficulty increases, users can coalesce in p2p mining pools such as p2pool, and instead of deciding on the % for their payout (bitcoin), they decide on what their news item should be and where it would be ranked in the block (the power CPU, the highest it could be)
11:00 < sipa> bitcoin's value is essential for providing the economic incentive for the blockchain to converge
11:00 < lmatteis> Miners have the incentive to participate in the system as they are given the chance to decide on the content of the block
11:01 < sipa> what problem are you trying to solve?
11:01 < lmatteis> ok, so the goal would be to create a news system that is totally unbiased
11:01 < sipa> why would tue result be unbiased?
11:02 < bsm117532> I can see an iteration of that idea being useful to pay news content providers.  After-the-fact payment would be better than the clickbait bullshit we have going on now.
11:02 < sipa> there is no incentive to participate in your system, and pay for the pow expenses
11:02 < lmatteis> well, the idea is that since the ranking of the items in the block is decided by the participants, via their CPU power, it could be less biased than regular news outlets
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11:03 < sipa> i thonk it would quickly degenerate into a system where advertizers pay to get their content included
11:03 < lmatteis> sorry, "totally unbiased" might be impossible - goal is to make it less biased than current centralized systems
11:03 < sipa> i think it's far worse
11:03 < sipa> there is no reputation for miners to uohold
11:03 < bsm117532> lmatteis: I don't see the use of PoW here.  You might have a look at the prediction market ideas and apply them to news.
11:04 < lmatteis> bsm117532: PoW is only used to achieve consensus
11:04 < lmatteis> sipa: right i see
11:04 < bsm117532> But this is an opinion poll.  Consensus isn't required.
11:04 < bsm117532> OTOH prediction markets force users to commit resources to their "bets", and may be more relevant for you.
11:07 < lmatteis> hrm i don't really know what and how prediction markets are
11:07 < lmatteis> or work
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11:07 < bsm117532> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prediction_market
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11:08 < lmatteis> sipa: well you have to imagine that the pow expenses only increase with interest. so in the beginning, it'll be easy to mine with basic hardware
11:08 < bsm117532> See also http://www.augur.net/
11:10 < lmatteis> my interest is simply to have a "news page" every 30-60 minutes or so, which contents and order is decided by the amount of pow given by users. i think the results could be interesting at first; users could dedicate some of their CPU time towards specific news items they want to see at the top
11:10 < lmatteis> however, i do of course see  that it could degenerate; advertisers could outpace the regular users and promote their own content
11:11 < sipa> lmatteis: cpu time can be bought; ultimately you are providing anhorribly inefficient pay-for-distribution scheme
11:11 < sipa> at least reddit requires solving some captchas :)
11:11 < lmatteis> with you still have to trust reddit admins
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11:13 < sipa> you can still turn it into a distributed system... use something like a WoT identities where users vote on interesting stories etc
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11:14 < lmatteis> you still need someone central to verify WoT identities are valid (not bots)
11:16 < bsm117532> lmatteis: All you really need is people to commit resources to their vote, doesn't have to be PoW resource, it could be bitcoin instead.  Also then you don't care about bots.  If someone wants to pay for bots to falsely upvote something, let them.  Someone else profits from it.
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11:16 < bsm117532> The Scientologists have been doing this for years, buying out copies of Dianetics at bookstores to keep it on bestseller lists.
11:16 < bsm117532> (At a loss to them though)
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22:57 < kanzure> jl2012: sorry about getting moderated. FWIW i think your email was on-topic.
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23:08 < btcdrak> jl2012: me too
23:12 < gmaxwell> me too;  though the thread was getting circular; but it wasn't the fault of jl2012.
23:12 < gmaxwell> Bitcoin-dev is just not a safe space to discuss new ideas.
23:13 < jl2012> anyway, I believe it's better to move to somewhere else, as it is just a rough idea not for implementation in near term
23:13 < bramc> I'm missing context here, but the thought which may or may not be relevant is what you really want in blocks is roots of three things: utxos added this block, utxos removed this block, and utxos after the previous block
23:14 < gmaxwell> yea, it's further out. And I think it's okay that the list isn't there.
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23:14 < gmaxwell> er list isn't ideal for that regardless.
23:15 < bramc> That way you have a whole block of time to recalculate a utxo root, which is good because that might take a few dozen milliseconds or more.
23:15 < gmaxwell> Though I am a bit unhappy with the confused shouting out by people who AFAIK have little background in the subject matter... since it makes the list inapproiate for things that are nearer term too.
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23:18 < jl2012> kanzure: I don't mind moving away after some initial discussion. Just wonder why I have to wait for moderation for all my posts
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23:21 < gmaxwell> I'd say that it would be beneficial to hammer out things like that in plances where the audience will not be as likely to get caught up in misunderstandings.. but your post I think was pretty clear. I think if I checked it first I wouldn't have suggested any clarifications, beyond pointing you to where very similar things had been discussed before.
23:22 < bramc> I'm trying to guess what y'all are discussing based on previous traffic on this channel and it isn't clear.
23:23 < gmaxwell> Someone have an archive link for bramc.
23:23 < gmaxwell> ?
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23:25 < jl2012> gmaxwell: Would you please point me to Peter Todd's similar proposal?
23:27 < jl2012> If a proposal is useful and not done, the probability for it to be reinvented approaches 1.
23:27 < gmaxwell> bramc: http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/011952.html
23:28 < bramc> gmaxwell, thanks
23:29 < jl2012> please continue the discussion in https://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoinwizards/comments/3wr4yz/forget_dormant_utxos_without_confiscating_bitcoin/
23:29 < gmaxwell> jl2012: I'm not sure what the best link is. He has propsed 'stxo' commitments which is an insertion ordered commitment over every txout created (or in some versions he's described it as being over all the txouts that fall off the end of a fixed size FIFO utxo set). When a STXO is spent the spend includes an update proof the shows membership and sets it to an empty alue.
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23:30 < gmaxwell> So more or less what you were thinking, but the original direction of the approach is different, and some details were different: e.g. fixed size vs time based.
23:30 < gmaxwell> This would let you have determinstic storage requirements for nodes.
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23:32 < bramc> Sounds like a reasonable idea, although I'd add in a few things (these may be in the proposal already, I'm not fully clear on the details): There should be batches over time, possibly each batch doesn't need to be included until a few blocks after it ends, to give time for its computation. It has the downside of making transactions quite a bit bigger (those paths to merkle roots are much larger than signatures). We don't
23:32 < bramc>  need it yet.
23:33 < jl2012> time based UTXO limit + block size limit also indirectly sets an upper UTXO limit, at least you could calculate a theoretical one
23:35 < gmaxwell> FWIW, most of the path is common to almost every transaction (the top of the tree)
23:35 < gmaxwell> so if you require nodes to keep track of the top couple levels of the tree, those directly go off the count.
23:36 < bramc> gmaxwell, They're still big, at least compared to ECC hashes
23:37 < gmaxwell> e.g. doesn't take much state to store the top 16 levels of the tree (65536 leaves), and would cut 512 bytes off every stxo txin
23:37 < bramc> A hash is 256 bits, or 32 bytes. With a set of 1000 things, that winds up being 320 bytes
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23:37 < gmaxwell> I think this could actually be negoiated too. e.g. "I keep the top X, don't send me that"
23:38 < fluffypony> heh
23:38 < bramc> You could also have the batches be referred to by number, and do them frequently. That would cut down on size as well. But still, any way you slice it resurrecting an archived utxo would require several times as many bytes as a regular transaction
23:38 < fluffypony> jl2012: not sure if you're aware, but ThomasV proposed exactly this like a year ago
23:39 < gmaxwell> yes, in these schemes the archived txouts take more space to spend for sure.
23:40 < gmaxwell> though as I said, degrees of fractionality of the tree to could be hop by hop negoiated.
23:40 < gmaxwell> So people could freely make space/bandwidth tradeoff decisions.
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23:41 < kanzure> jl2012: you have to wait for moderation because we keep forgetting to unset your moderation bit! sorry about that. i'll try to remember.
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23:43 < jl2012> for a block with 1024 UTXOs, 10 layers of hash would take 320bytes, plus other required info it should not take more than 400 bytes
23:44 < jl2012> so the size is inflated by 100-200% for a normal 250bytes tx. Not a big deal IMO
23:45 < gmaxwell> yea, and 10 layers is a lot, if you're assuming 16 layers of "common data"
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--- Log closed Mon Dec 14 00:00:36 2015