--- Log opened Tue Dec 15 00:00:26 2015 --- Day changed Tue Dec 15 2015 00:00 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f11db5b.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:08 -!- tachys [~alex@c-50-131-227-138.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:09 -!- midnightmagic [~midnightm@unaffiliated/midnightmagic] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:12 -!- tachys [~alex@c-50-131-227-138.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:12 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:20 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:26 -!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:27 -!- bobke [~bobke@94-226-145-186.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:31 -!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:34 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:306:b8e0:8160:314a:3f1a:bfa9:fa8e] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:44 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:306:b8e0:8160:314a:3f1a:bfa9:fa8e] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:45 < jl2012> sipa: for the witness commitment format, you don't really need to spend 1 byte to indicate the depth of the tree 00:46 < jl2012> you can encode it with the nonce 00:48 < jl2012> um....forget it....it just effectively reduces the space of the nonce 00:52 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:15 -!- coinoperated [~coinopera@c-73-163-103-87.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:19 -!- dc17523be3 [unknown@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-ecygtrxwpvklxpax] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:19 -!- dc17523be3 [unknown@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-ecygtrxwpvklxpax] has quit [Client Quit] 01:20 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:27 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:28 -!- 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[~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:23 < JackH> they are moving into blockchain 08:23 < JackH> where the big money is 08:24 < JackH> I wonder what will happen when everyone realizes that it all doesnt matter and that nothing can compare to Bitcoin 08:24 < JackH> and even when they integrate with "blockchain" Bitcoin still wont go away 08:26 -!- tachys [~alex@c-50-131-227-138.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:26 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:30 -!- tachys [~alex@c-50-131-227-138.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:41 -!- Jeremy_Rand_2 [~user@172.56.6.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:45 -!- Cory [~C@unaffiliated/cory] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:47 -!- TBI_ [~TBI@84.48.195.20] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:48 -!- melvster1 [~melvster@ip-89-176-99-192.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:51 -!- Cory [~C@unaffiliated/cory] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:05 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:08 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:16 -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@dhcp-18-111-25-107.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: GGuyZ] 09:18 -!- Burrito [~Burrito@unaffiliated/burrito] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:23 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@104-6-36-162.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:26 -!- tachys [~alex@96.90.231.161] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:27 < jl2012> I'm studying http://www.tik.ee.ethz.ch/file/716b955c130e6c703fac336ea17b1670/duplex-micropayment-channels.pdf 09:27 < jl2012> Could we use duplex payment channel now? or do we also need segwit? 09:28 < sipa> we need ntxid or segwit 09:28 -!- adam3us [~Adium@141.8.72.43] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:28 -!- tripleslash [~triplesla@unaffiliated/imsaguy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:30 -!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:31 -!- adam3us [~Adium@141.8.72.43] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:35 -!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:36 < JackH> is ntxid exlusively needed for duplex channels, or does it apply to lightning as well? 09:37 -!- desantis [~desantis@c-68-47-180-250.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:37 -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@dhcp-18-111-25-107.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:38 -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@dhcp-18-111-25-107.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 09:42 -!- tripleslash [~triplesla@unaffiliated/imsaguy] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:43 -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@dhcp-18-111-25-107.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:46 < jl2012> sipa: didn't they say we have "level 1 LN" with CLTV? So the "level 1 LN" is not based on the duplex channel? 09:46 < JackH> they are different projects, but what I understand myself is that CSV is level 2 for LN 09:47 < JackH> while the ntxid is for duplex exclusively? that I am not sure of 09:47 -!- TBI [~TBI@20.84-48-195.nextgentel.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:48 < JackH> ntxid strips the signatures from the tx id's 09:48 < jl2012> segwit is effectively ntxid, afaik 09:49 -!- tripleslash [~triplesla@unaffiliated/imsaguy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:49 < JackH> yes but I believe its also much more than that 09:50 < JackH> normalized tx ids have been planned since mtgox 09:52 < jl2012> the ntxid for mtgox has no consensus meaning 09:52 < JackH> true 09:53 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@c-73-135-190-58.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:53 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@c-73-135-190-58.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 09:53 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:53 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:54 -!- melvster1 [~melvster@ip-89-176-99-192.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:57 -!- melvster1 [~melvster@188.242.broadband3.iol.cz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:57 < jl2012> sipa: for your segwit implemention, you restrict the length of the segwit script to 2-41 bytes. Does it mean if one wants to have a multisig witness programme with P2SH, he must use the version 0x01 witness programme? So that becomes a double P2SH? 09:57 < phantomcircuit> JackH, lightning is hash locked duplex micropayment channels 09:58 < phantomcircuit> if you can get the duplex micropayment channels to work the hash locking will work 09:58 < phantomcircuit> the issue currently is that the channel open transaction can be mutated which would cause both participants funds to be locked up until both parties signed the new transaction 09:59 -!- TBI [~TBI@20.84-48-195.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:59 < phantomcircuit> the problem with that is if the payments are imbalanced or the time priority of money is imbalanced then one participant can effectively hold the others money hostage 10:00 < phantomcircuit> jl2012, ^ 10:00 -!- matsjj_ [~matsjj@89.197.31.78] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:01 -!- melvster1 [~melvster@188.242.broadband3.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:02 -!- TBI [~TBI@20.84-48-195.nextgentel.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:02 < jl2012> thanks. I think I still have a lot to read 10:02 -!- matsjj [~matsjj@89.197.31.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:03 < sipa> jl2012: yes, there is no reason to put complex scripts in the scriptPubKey 10:05 < phantomcircuit> sipa, as in all outputs should be using p2sh, not that the logical script pub key would never need to be complex, correct? 10:05 -!- TBI [~TBI@20.84-48-195.nextgentel.com] has quit [Client Quit] 10:05 < sipa> right 10:07 -!- tripleslash [~triplesla@unaffiliated/imsaguy] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:07 < jl2012> why 41 bytes? 1 version + (1+32) hash + 7 anything else? 10:08 -!- bendavenport [~bpd@96.90.231.161] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:08 -!- bendavenport [~bpd@96.90.231.161] has quit [Client Quit] 10:08 -!- bendavenport [~bpd@96.90.231.161] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:11 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:13 -!- tachys [~alex@96.90.231.161] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:16 -!- 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[~desantis@c-68-47-180-250.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:08 -!- zookolaptop [~user@c-73-217-16-2.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:10 -!- qawap_ is now known as qawap 12:12 -!- Luke-Jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:12 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:12 -!- Luke-Jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:13 -!- qawap is now known as qawap_ 12:13 -!- qawap_ is now known as qawap 12:13 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Client Quit] 12:22 < JackH> phantomcircuit, thanks for the clarification for duplex 12:22 < JackH> any idea when we have hash locks? 12:22 < phantomcircuit> JackH: today? 12:22 < phantomcircuit> they're not standard but you can do that today 12:23 < JackH> wait, this is now possible? 12:23 -!- desantis [~desantis@c-68-47-180-250.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: desantis] 12:23 < JackH> duplex can work 100%? 12:23 < phantomcircuit> no 12:23 < phantomcircuit> hash locks work today 12:23 -!- desantis [~desantis@c-68-47-180-250.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:23 < JackH> yes CTLV 12:23 < phantomcircuit> duplex micropayment channels 99% work today, but can be held hostage in the event of a mutated transaction 12:23 < JackH> and for that we need ntx right? 12:24 < phantomcircuit> they're technically different things 12:24 < phantomcircuit> either consensus enforced ntx or sw 12:24 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:24 < phantomcircuit> which are pretty similar in practice 12:24 -!- desantis [~desantis@c-68-47-180-250.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:24 -!- desantis [~desantis@c-68-47-180-250.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:29 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Quit: Bye] 12:33 -!- MrHodl [~fuc@185.22.183.195] has quit [] 12:33 < sipa> phantomcircuit: have you read cdecker's duplex micropayment channels? 12:34 < phantomcircuit> sipa: i did but i cant honestly say i remember much from it 12:35 < phantomcircuit> you're speaking of this right? http://www.tik.ee.ethz.ch/file/716b955c130e6c703fac336ea17b1670/duplex-micropayment-channels.pdf 12:37 < sipa> yes, just asking because i have nkt, but i know it's more eliborate than what you'd expect from the name 12:37 < sipa> elaborate 12:56 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:57 -!- desantis [~desantis@c-68-47-180-250.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: desantis] 12:57 -!- desantis [~desantis@c-68-47-180-250.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:57 -!- zookolaptop [~user@65.114.195.186] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:59 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@n182z6l196.static.ctm.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:04 -!- zookolaptop [~user@65.114.195.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:11 -!- zookolaptop [~user@65.114.195.186] has joined 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has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 15:39 -!- wizkid057 is now known as wizkld057 15:40 -!- wizkld057 is now known as w1zkid057 15:40 -!- w1zkid057 is now known as w1zk1d057 15:40 -!- w1zk1d057 is now known as wizkid057 15:42 -!- syriven [~logan@24.237.158.7] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:46 -!- zookolaptop [~user@c-71-196-136-219.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:50 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:51 -!- bramc [~bram@38.99.42.130] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:51 -!- syriven [~logan@24.237.158.7] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 15:52 < bramc> Info on cache misses. I'm mostly shooting for avoiding L1/L2 cache misses: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1126529/what-is-the-cost-of-an-l1-cache-miss 15:54 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-134-106-75.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:56 -!- tachys [~alex@96.90.231.161] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:56 -!- tachys [~alex@96.90.231.161] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:57 -!- tachys [~alex@96.90.231.161] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:00 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:01 -!- frankenmint [~frankenmi@75-175-72-226.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:03 -!- tachys [~alex@96.90.231.161] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:08 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f11db5b.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:15 -!- jcluck [~cluckj@pool-108-16-231-242.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:17 -!- desantis [~desantis@c-68-47-180-250.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:18 -!- cluckj [~cluckj@pool-108-16-231-242.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:18 -!- cluckj [~cluckj@pool-108-16-231-242.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:19 -!- jcluck [~cluckj@pool-108-16-231-242.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:20 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:21 -!- CautiousNarwhal [ad03d8c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.173.3.216.198] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:33 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:42 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@104-6-36-162.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 16:44 < bramc> Observations for today: (1) You can check if something is included faster if you aren't making a proof, because in a balanced section of the tree you can skip down (2) marking something as being empty by giving it a special value is a lot more shit to check than 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[~frankenmi@75-175-72-226.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [] 18:57 -!- Terry4 [~Terry4@162.247.73.201] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:04 -!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@unaffiliated/king-rex/x-3258444] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:04 -!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@unaffiliated/king-rex/x-3258444] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:08 -!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@unaffiliated/king-rex/x-3258444] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:11 -!- roconnor [~roconnor@host-45-58-248-45.dyn.295.ca] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:17 -!- CubicEar_ [~cubiceart@107.17.54.183] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:18 < maaku_> duplex channels work with CLTV, but are only efficient with certain usage assumptions, since the tradeoffs of timelock vs safety are annoying 19:19 -!- bitdevsn_ [~bitdevsny@cpe-158-222-198-108.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:22 -!- bitdevsnyc [~bitdevsny@cpe-158-222-198-108.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:33 < jl2012> i think the duplex channel is a realization of Satoshi's original vision with nSequence, consensus enforced. Can't wait for OP_CSV and segwit 19:35 < jl2012> my guesstimation is CSV in 2 months and segwit in 6 months? 19:37 < aj> jl2012: i'd guess 3 months for CSV (xmas, ny, cny...) 19:38 -!- digitalmagus [~digitalma@unaffiliated/digitalmagus] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:38 -!- digitalmagus [~digitalma@unaffiliated/digitalmagus] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:38 < jl2012> I don't include the time for miner upgrade. So Chinese new year is irrelevant 19:38 < aj> jl2012: oh, i don't count it as done 'til miners upgrade :) 19:39 < aj> jl2012: but in that case, yeah, sounds pretty reasonable 19:39 < jl2012> but yes, don't assume Chinese miners do anything in Feb 19:40 -!- desantis_ [~desantis@50.153.219.10] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:42 -!- desantis [~desantis@50.153.219.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:42 -!- desantis_ is now known as desantis 19:44 -!- p15 [~p15@ip-29-214-104-93.static.contabo.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:44 -!- zookolaptop [~user@50.141.117.96] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:48 -!- zookolap` [~user@2601:281:8001:26aa:7947:a45:ede9:5fd2] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:49 -!- digitalmagus [~digitalma@unaffiliated/digitalmagus] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:49 -!- zookolaptop [~user@50.141.117.96] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:49 -!- digitalmagus [~digitalma@unaffiliated/digitalmagus] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:50 -!- desantis_ 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