--- Log opened Sun Dec 20 00:00:42 2015
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01:48 < jl2012> any kind of pay-to-increase-block-size scheme is too complicated, and all you need is 51% power to monopolize the network and bypass any rules
01:49 < maaku> jl2012: um, isn't that a fully general argument?
01:49 < maaku> all you need to bypass X is 51% hashpower (actually: 33% [or 25%?])
01:50 < jl2012> yes, but such scheme creates incentive to attack
01:50 < maaku> howso?
01:50 < maaku> (the implementation is actually quite simple, btw)
01:51 < jl2012> i think there are multiple
01:52 < jl2012> if you have a specific one, please give a link
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01:56 < maaku> jl2012: what's the attack incentive?
01:57 < jl2012> it depends on the details of the implementation. If you have a specific implementation in mind, just give me a link to that and I'll analyze
01:58 < maaku> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/hong-kong/a-flexible-limit-trading-subsidy-for-larger-blocks/
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02:04 < maaku> you can see the adjustment code here: https://github.com/maaku/bitcoin/commit/ad4c77f1ff2c370f67538e01fd082d231b57f2d0
02:05 < maaku> (repo isn't complete, but that commit shows the simplicity of the change)
02:06 < jl2012> as you said: "Yes. If there is a cabal of miners that do not like a vote, there could be a price differential in the price they pay, yes. They are giving up the fees they would have collected. That's a risk, yes. If you are voting against the cabal of miners, then perhaps you have to pay a higher fee. This is unfortunate but not sure what to do."
02:07 < maaku> i'm not sure I'd call that an attack
02:07 < jl2012> so, if your vote is favorable,  you don't need to pay any fee
02:07 < maaku> but regardless, that is about the security parameter adjustment, NOT adjustable block size
02:07 < jl2012> if not favorable, pay a lot of fee and still wait for hours
02:08 < jl2012> sounds not very moral
02:09 < jl2012> and since the majority of income is still from inflation, no miner would really care about fee
02:10 < maaku> jl2012: miners are giving up revenue by doing that...
02:10 < maaku> jl2012: i've already stated in the talk and elsewhere, flexcap is unworkable unless fees constitute a sizable amount (majoirty?) of miner revenue
02:10 < maaku> it's a long term proposal
02:12 < jl2012> fee is negligible (at least in the coming 8 years), comparing with allowing an unfavorable vote
02:14 < maaku> i wonder what assumption went into that 8yr number
02:14 < adam3us> problem with paying for incentive to use space efficiently is how much, its set by the market.
02:14 < jl2012> no one would believe miners will collect 12.5BTC fee/block by 2020, do you?
02:17 < jl2012> unless the exchange rate of BTC/USD drops to really low
02:18 < jl2012> Fee is collected as BTC, but it's valued as USD. If that becomes ridiculous, people will stop moving their bitcoin
02:20 < jl2012> well, if block size is something like 20MB by 2020, then 12.5BTC fee is not impossible. Still depends on the value of BTC in USD
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02:42 < maaku> jl2012: i would hope that miners collect 12.5btc per block, or else we're all doomed
02:43 < maaku> unless the price of bitcoin goes to the moon, and i'm not basing my projections on that
02:43 < maaku> note that larger blocks means more txns which mean more fee per block
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02:47 < moa> maaku: not necessarily
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03:15 < jl2012> maaku: so, if a vote is favorable to 51% of miners, the tx may go through for free. Or even negative fee: miners will pay a big stakeholder to vote for a favorable direction
03:16 < jl2012> as long as they believe that the gain is higher than the negative fee
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03:48 < MRL-Relay> [othe] https://github.com/MonetaOfficial/moneta apparently some zerocoin implementation, sounds dangerous *shrugs*
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07:24 < kanzure> "Reduce Orphaning Risk and Improve Zero-Confirmation Security With Subchains" (peter rizun) http://www.bitcoinunlimited.info/downloads/subchains.pdf
07:25 < kanzure> this seems to be wrong: "the initial verification of a transaction by a miner is delayed because blocks are propagated on average only every ten minutes"
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07:27 < kanzure> "This approximation assumes that the propagation time is small compared to the target block time."  uh.... right, if you assume that bandwidth is not a problem, it would make sense for bandwidth to not be a problem.
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07:40 < kanzure> othe: you have a typo in your github description ("intrgrated")
07:41 < MRL-Relay> [othe] it´s not mine, was just wondering if someone looked at it
07:45 < Taek> "Unlike Visa, Bitcoin's transaction capacity is limited due to miners' hesitation to produce blocks containing large volumes of new transactions. Such blocks propagate across the network slowly, increasing chances that the block is orphaned and the miner's reward is lost."
07:45 < Taek> >.<
07:45 < amiller> has anyone figured out this generalized soft-fork thing https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1296628.0
07:46 < kanzure> Taek: i am almost certain that he is trolling us now. the scenarios have been so thoroughly described that his ignorance of them just seeems.. totally trollish.
07:46 < Taek> "Don't block the stream" -> guy is definitely trolling at least some of the time
07:46 < kanzure> Taek: for example, block propagation to a majority of hashrate can propagate very quickly, increasing low-bandwidth miner orphan rate.
07:47 < kanzure> "don't block hte stream" cannot be easily interpreted as trolling *me*
07:47 < kanzure> amiller: i just approved that email; nobody has had time to read the email.
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07:47 < katu> amiller: looks like merged mining the opposing chainrule to me
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07:48 < amiller> well maybe they looked at the forum post already lol
07:48 < amiller> i think it's trying to extract just the mindblowing part of segwit, but not the signature specific details
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07:50 < kanzure> isn't that just "evil fork" stuff?
07:50  * amiller looks for "evil fork"
07:50 < kanzure> huh we should probably campaign ourselves to stop voluntarily labeling our proposals "evil"
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07:51 < kanzure> "extension blocks" and "evil extension blocks"
07:52 < kanzure> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-May/008356.html
07:52 < kanzure> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=283746.0
07:52 < amiller> thx
07:54 < kanzure> i might need some recalibration re: relevance or if that's what you mean about "generalized soft-forks".
07:54 < amiller> looks the same to me
07:55 < kanzure> could you post ze links? i am bbl for great food reasons.
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08:01 < amiller> i posted a reply on bitcointalk
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08:03 < Taek> weird notation to mark the old chain with a tick`
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08:03 < Taek> I would expect the new chain to have the tick`
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08:14 < Taek> amiller: I would assert that the definition ZoomT has for a generalized softfork is insufficient, it's not clear from that definition that old nodes have to be able to receive outputs from new addresses
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08:15 < Taek> the transformation is inherently lossy, but I would say that for a fork to be sufficiently soft you'd want to be able to spend outputs in the new chain in a way that nodes on the old chain can recognize they've received the coins
08:15 < Taek> segwit accomplishes this
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08:17 < amiller> Taek, yeah, it seems to me like it's the case that with the ZoomT definition, coins once spent under the new rules are permanently stuck on that side, and you can't send them to old addresses with a valid transaction.
08:17 < amiller> i dunno maybe that's not the case
08:18 < amiller> i mean the coins that are in the new-rules are always in 'anyonecanspend' purgatory, so whenever the new-rules, that's still ok under anyonecanspend too
08:19 < Taek> Yeah but it matters how easy it is to pull coins out of the 'anyonecanspend' outputs that get created
08:20 < Taek> I guess it wouldn't be too hard to define some rule in your transformation that says 'if anyone spends to an old address, just pull the coins out of the largest available 'anyonecanspend' and create a change output as well'
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08:22 < amiller> it's also a bit like doing sidechains, only using softfork majority rather than a separate/mergemined pow chain
08:24 < Taek> softforks provide better security than merged mining, right?
08:24 < Taek> yeah, b/c if you are going to attack a softfork you need to give up revenue on the main chain
08:24 < Taek> but in merged mining you don't need to give up revenue on the bigger chain
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08:47 < Taek> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1296628.msg13307761#msg13307761
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09:16 < el33th4x0r> the "generalized soft-fork" discussion is interesting, but it suffers from a syntactic transformation with no semantics attached.
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09:17 < el33th4x0r> so there exists a function f to map from new to old, that's nice, but it also has to be the case that the outcomes in the old chain are the same as the outcomes in the new chain.
09:17 < el33th4x0r> or at least, compatible with them.
09:17 < sipa> it indeed is not a hard fork, but requires upgrading every other piece of bitcoin software that interacts with the chain
09:19 < el33th4x0r> right, the upgrade is required to uphold the desired semantics, yet those semantics are nowhere to be found in the discussion.
09:20 < el33th4x0r> so the discussion feels kind of empty. it's about the syntax and format, without concern for what how the transactions are interpreted, who is awarded money, etc.
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09:22 < el33th4x0r> as a case in point, if a new block B1 awards money to address X, but the corresponding f(B1) awards money to address Y, there is something wrong and the formalism, while nice, fell short
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09:26 < Taek> sipa: requires upgrading all software, but only if you want to access the bigger blocks. Still, a lot more dev overhead than a hardfork.
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10:02 < jgarzik> Taek, nod, that's been one of my points - total LOC changed including upper layer software
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10:46 < bramc> The reason for having anyonecanspend is so that you can add new functionality with soft forks. As a rule, soft forks can only add restrictions, while hard forks can reduce them. When something is anyonecanspend an old node will accept it if functionality is added in a soft fork.
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10:47 < bramc> adam3us, The reason for sipa's metric is to keep things simple. It sacrifices a little bit of potential scale for much simpler logic.
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11:00 < adam3us> bramc: yep. i was just brainstorming if there is something "simple enough" that doenst create a mult-dimensional optimisation and gives access to the full 1MB
11:03 < bramc> adam3us, Also you can't just sort by fee/byte. Child pays complicates things a lot.
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11:22 < Taek> One of the advantages touted by Peter Rizun's 'subchains' paper is security added to zero-conf transactions
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11:23 < Taek> "To double-spend a t ransaction included in a subchain, an attacker must produce a weak block with greater fees than the honest subchain before the network finds a strong block"
11:24 < Taek> but, because there is no consensus enforcing the weak block chains, you can simply swap out the one transaction, and other miners will still be able to build on your weak block
11:24 < Taek> especially if they have software sophisticated enough to recognize the small diff
11:26 < Taek> it's also easy enough to add a new transaction to the block that's a really high fee which depends on the double spend
11:27 < Taek> then you can sucessfully execute even without building a longer subchain, all you need is one weak block
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11:42 < kanzure> "no consensus enforcing the weak block chains, you can simply swap out the one transaction," i thought pow-difficulty requirements remain?
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11:46 < Taek> not the best wording on my part
11:46 < Taek> miners will be building on top of the subchain with the most fees, not on top of the subchain with the most work
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11:46 < kanzure> this does not seem to be inherent in all the weak block proposals...?
11:47 < Taek> yes, I believe that is inherent to all of the weak block proposals, including the mandatory weak block proposals
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11:47 < Taek> meaning, no weak block proposals, afaik, improve 0-strong-conf securty
11:47 < kanzure> super-weak blocks are dislaced by stronger weak blocks, i believe. unless the stronger weak blocks reference the earlier weaker weak blocks.
11:48 < katu> simplest zeroconf would be just for p2pool to have majority :)
11:48 < kanzure> *displaced
11:48 < kanzure> "weak blocks" does not mean "difficulty is irrelevant" afaik
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11:56 < Taek> kanzure: I'm not sure what you mean by 'super-weak blocks are dislaced by stronger weak blocks', are you referring to the nested subchains?
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12:53 < bramc> There are various schemes for handling weak blocks. It's prudent to accept multiple ones, since all they're doing is helping with compression.
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14:11 < dgenr8> Taek: agreed.  Rizun doesn't talk about subchain reorgs at all.  Why assume that a double-spend attacker has to build an attack subchain all by himself?  He just needs to get ahead.
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14:13 < dgenr8> However, if a cost of even one weak block were successfully attached to a 0-conf double-spend, that would be a significant development
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17:20 < instagibbs> dgenr8, AFAICT the same cost will happen with the more general near block scheme, assuming there is no way to stop miners from transmitting orphan subchain blocks and convincing others that those txns will be included.
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22:39 < Taek> http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_reports/RR1200/RR1231/RAND_RR1231.pdf
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23:13 < bramc> Upshot from today's in person discussion: utxo roots are also good for self-auditing. Calls should have the option of verifying while things are being traced through
23:14 < bramc> Also a general audit call because there are some edge cases of corruption which that won't catch. That should probably allow both just internal auditing and iteration across the entire set.
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