--- Log opened Mon Dec 21 00:00:42 2015
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05:29 < kanzure> https://github.com/jl2012/bips/blob/segwit/bip-segwit.mediawiki
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05:35 < jl2012> kanzure: please comment, and tell me if you want more examples
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06:43 < Greyboy> how do you get invite to #bitcoin-pricetalk?
06:43 < phy1729> iirc that channel was closed
06:44 < chmod755> Greyboy, ##bitcoin is the new #bitcoin-pricetalk
06:44 < Greyboy> thank you!
06:44 < Greyboy> chmod 755, why do you like 755, better than say, 700 or 644?
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06:46 < phy1729> perhaps just be umask022
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10:35 < kanzure> more about icestorm fpga stuff http://www.excamera.com/sphinx/article-j1a-swapforth.html
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11:52 < e0_> What is the status of Schnorr sigs in Bitcoin, I see that Schnorr sign/verify/etc exist in the code base.
11:52 < e0_> Is there anyway to call them from an op code?
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11:55 < adam3us> not yet. but maybe soonish :)
11:55 < adam3us> lots of advantages hence motivation
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12:27 < Eliel_> segwit sounds like a good chance to activate them.
12:28 < adam3us> it helps scale too because n of n multisg schnorr are same size as 1 sig.
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12:30 < instagibbs> Eliel_, that was my thought too...
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13:24 < moa> http://yro.slashdot.org/story/15/12/21/1549258
13:24 < kanzure> .title
13:24 < yoleaux> HTTP Error Code 451 Approved For Censored Web Pages - Slashdot
13:25 < bramc> haha
13:26 < moa> i was conflicted, should I laugh or cry or both?
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13:42 < moa> is it a fair to say that voluntary consensus is an example of emergent behaviour?
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13:43 < moa> coalescence around a common concept/direction in the free market of ideas
13:44 < moa> trying to formalise this is a direct mapping to a mathematical description of emergence, automata and that field of study
13:44 < moa> none of which I have seen much success with, tbh.
13:46 < jcorgan> if it could be coded deterministically, it would be part of the consensus rules.  instead, the emergent behavior is only "calculable" by letting it happen.
13:47 < moa> my point being is that I don't think that it can be formalised
13:48 < moa> or that would be an internal contradiction in logic
13:48 < jcorgan> i think we're saying the same thing
13:48 < moa> i think we are
13:50 < moa> a godel-like theorem for emergence/consensus
13:52 < coinoperated> consensus forms opportunistically, where signalling conditions align in such a way as to permit a self-reinforcing feedback loop to start forming.  it doesn't have to be voluntary opt-in, it doesn't have to be a conscious process at all..
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14:06 < bramc> Also in discussion yesterday, gmaxwell has this great idea which may or may not have been discussed on the list of making weak blocks which have pointers to transaction sets which aren't actually their transaction sets, so they can help those transactions propagate without taking the hit on adding an orphan rate for themselves if they succeed
14:06 < AdrianG> deterministic rules would be incomplete, not internally contradictory.
14:08 < e0_> adam3us can't we do n of n multisig with threshold sigs right now for the price of one sig?
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14:09 < bramc> And some discussion of strategies for reference semantics of weak blocks. General feeling is that weak blocks should be able to support a single reference to a prior weak block, and nodes should forward all weak blocks over the decided on threshold. No discussion of what that threshold should be. I'm guessing a simple value around the order of 1/10 or 1/100 a block's difficulty.
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14:11 < bramc> In principle supporting a DAG instead of a linked list of weak blocks gets marginally more compression, but nobody sounded like they had any appetite for working on it and everybody was queasy about potential implementation errors on the edge cases.
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14:17 < adam3us> e0_: no. n of n ecdsa is n*sizeof(ecdsa)
14:17 < AdrianG> is there any formal papers on bitcoin consensus and continuous game equilibrium
14:17 < moa> AdrianG: deterministic rules for a self-determined entity is a clear contradiction
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14:21 < e0_> adam3us what am I missing "Threshold signatures
14:21 < e0_> look no different from single-key signatures and thus
14:21 < e0_> avoid the shortcomings of multi-signature transactions.
14:21 < e0_> Threshold signatures applied to Bitcoin wallets can be
14:21 < e0_> considered “stealth multi-signatures.”"
14:21 < e0_> damn carriage returns
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14:22 < e0_> https://www.cs.princeton.edu/~stevenag/threshold_sigs.pdf
14:23 < mrkent_> What gets published on the old blockchain in weakblock/subchains scenario when strong block is found? I'd imagine the whole set of transactions since the last strong block?
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14:35 < coinoperated> AdrianG:   i would expect to see broad analysis published in Ledger, assuming it makes it out the door.
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14:45 < btcdrak> In case anyone missed it https://bitcoin.org/en/bitcoin-core/capacity-increases
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15:18 < kanzure> strange, p2pool page on bitcoin wiki does not mention variance more than once
15:18 < kanzure> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/P2Pool
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15:31 < kanzure> suggested content re: p2pool plz? https://github.com/bitcoin-dot-org/bitcoin.org/issues/1168
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16:00 < midnightmagic> kanzure: sharechain window size; lack of sharechain-linked tx implies, IMO, that the sharechain is a much more natural fit for e.g. braided chains or a treechain structure to reduce the perception of an orphan rate; p2pool has address privacy enhancements over.. as far as I can tell all the other pools..; chronobit works with p2pool; p2pool does transparent merged-mining but not sharechain-e
16:00 < midnightmagic> nhanced merged-mining; and due to its built-in relay netwrk has lower orphan rates than any other pool did, in the past.
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19:15 < kanzure> midnightmagic: added to issue, thanks
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19:41 < bramc> There's this unfortunate pattern that highly technical and uncontroversial ideas don't generate much discussion, while nontechnical and controversial ones do, as a result of which there's nearly an inverse correlation between how good an idea is and how much discussion there is of it.
19:42 < moa> call it the "Kadashian effect"
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19:45 < bramc> Ha!
19:46 < bramc> Although there isn't much controversial about Kim Kardashian. The only thing controversial about her is whether she deserves her fame, which she has mostly because of the controversy about whether she deserves her fame.
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19:47 < bramc> It's not like, say, block size increase discussion, where all of the ideas are at least somewhat controversial.
19:47 < eragmus1> FYI: https://twitter.com/bergalex/status/679133701800910848 — "Peter R, Managing Editor https://twitter.com/LedgerJrnlhttps://twitter.com/LedgerJrnl, an academic publication, lobbying https://twitter.com/gavinandresenhttps://twitter.com/gavinandresen to sabotage Bitcoin Core repo" — https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CWzEgL9WUAMY5nf.png
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19:48 < moa> the thing about drama queens is that everything is controversial
19:48 < midnightmagic> this is not the spot for that please.
19:48 < eragmus1> oh, okay, sorry.
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19:57 < bramc> It's funny how the actual segregating witness parts of segwit are mentioned as tertiary benefits. They are of course tremendously important in their own right, for actually adding functionality instead of just trying to keep the system from imploding.
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23:35 < adam3us> bramc: indeed.
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--- Log closed Tue Dec 22 00:00:43 2015