--- Log opened Wed Dec 23 00:00:45 2015
00:13 -!- licnep [uid4387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-easitmqxdnnwvoop] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
00:14 -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
00:21 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
00:22 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Client Quit]
00:23 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
00:38 -!- jtimon [~quassel@74.29.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
00:46 -!- desantis [~desantis@68.66.101.51] has quit [Quit: desantis]
00:50 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
00:54 -!- TBI_ [~TBI@154.92-220-180.customer.lyse.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
00:55 -!- TBI [~TBI@154.92-220-180.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
01:10 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
01:10 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:15 -!- TBI__ [~TBI@154.92-220-180.customer.lyse.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:16 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
01:19 -!- TBI_ [~TBI@154.92-220-180.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
01:19 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
01:19 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:24 -!- matsjj [~matsjj@p5B209304.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
01:28 -!- pozitron [~nu@46.166.188.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
01:31 -!- adam3us1 [~Adium@141.8.72.43] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
01:31 -!- adam3us [~Adium@141.8.72.43] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:34 -!- phy1729 [~phy1729@unaffiliated/phy1729] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
01:37 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@tardis.krellan.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
01:38 -!- phy1729 [~phy1729@unaffiliated/phy1729] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:44 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:12 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
02:13 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
02:14 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:16 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-228-102-98.ip191.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:28 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
02:45 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
02:45 -!- tripleslash [~triplesla@unaffiliated/imsaguy] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
02:45 -!- tripleslash_c [~triplesla@unaffiliated/imsaguy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:46 -!- licnep [uid4387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-easitmqxdnnwvoop] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
02:48 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:49 -!- p15 [~p15@97.91.145.64.client.static.strong-tk2.bringover.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
02:51 -!- GAit1 [~GAit@212.91.77.37] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:52 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
02:52 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:52 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-228-102-98.ip191.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
02:56 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
02:57 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
03:02 -!- _biO_ [~biO_@80.156.183.43] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:03 -!- GAit1 [~GAit@212.91.77.37] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
03:04 -!- GAit [~GAit@212.91.77.37] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:05 -!- libertalis [~libertali@c-73-207-38-154.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
03:09 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:17 -!- belcher [~user@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:21 -!- GAit [~GAit@212.91.77.37] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
03:51 -!- matsjj [~matsjj@p5B209304.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:56 -!- GAit [~GAit@212.91.77.37] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:58 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:58 -!- davec [~davec@24.243.251.52] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
04:00 -!- davec [~davec@cpe-24-243-251-52.hot.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:02 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:03 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
04:03 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
04:05 -!- GAit [~GAit@212.91.77.37] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
04:09 -!- GAit [~GAit@212.91.77.37] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:13 -!- vmatekol_ [~vmatekole@p5DDB85B1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
04:21 -!- GAit [~GAit@212.91.77.37] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
04:34 -!- GAit [~GAit@212.91.77.37] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:41 -!- GAit1 [~GAit@2-228-102-98.ip191.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:43 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:44 -!- GAit [~GAit@212.91.77.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
04:59 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:03 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
05:03 -!- bit2017 [~linker@115.79.55.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
05:18 -!- GAit1 [~GAit@2-228-102-98.ip191.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
05:25 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-228-102-98.ip191.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:25 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
05:28 -!- dEBRUYNE_ [~dEBRUYNE@vp0137.uvt.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:32 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
05:33 -!- gielbier [~giel____@unaffiliated/gielbier] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
05:34 -!- steven_ [~steven@ptr-2hj4tbi2g7xy3w0lkvrdwmj11.ip6.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:34 -!- Yoghur114_2 [~jorn@g227014.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:43 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-56-184-138.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:49 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-139-55-215-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:56 -!- dEBRUYNE_ [~dEBRUYNE@vp0137.uvt.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
05:58 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:59 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Client Quit]
06:00 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:01 -!- jannes [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:01 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-56-184-138.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
06:03 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-228-102-98.ip191.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
06:05 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
06:06 -!- licnep [uid4387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-reiwbjkberkpphno] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:06 -!- zookolaptop [~user@2601:281:8001:26aa:e943:9716:86b3:613b] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
06:14 < kanzure> "Lightning hubs & pooled reserves" https://gist.github.com/jonnynewbs/a8ac4d7d27cb74c5b486 http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2015-December/000399.html
06:15 -!- zookolaptop [~user@50.141.118.230] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:19 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:23 -!- bit2017 [~linker@171.250.100.43] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:25 -!- paci [~paci@host41-233-static.58-79-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
06:29 -!- paci [~paci@host41-233-static.58-79-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:35 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@2a02:8108:73f:f6e4:e23f:49ff:fe47:9364] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:47 -!- zookolaptop is now known as zooko
07:00 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
07:02 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:06 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
07:12 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:13 -!- [Derek] [~derek@unaffiliated/derek/x-8562683] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
07:13 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:19 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-56-184-138.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:22 -!- qadaemon [~textual@12.33.253.130] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:25 -!- zooko` [~user@c-73-217-16-2.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:25 -!- dEBRUYNE_ [~dEBRUYNE@vp0076.uvt.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:27 -!- zooko [~user@50.141.118.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
07:29 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
07:32 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
07:35 -!- tripleslash_c [~triplesla@unaffiliated/imsaguy] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
07:39 -!- steven_ [~steven@ptr-2hj4tbi2g7xy3w0lkvrdwmj11.ip6.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
07:39 -!- steven_ [~steven@d54C43EBE.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:39 -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:39 -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
07:40 -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:41 -!- dEBRUYNE_ [~dEBRUYNE@vp0076.uvt.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
07:42 -!- steven_ [~steven@d54C43EBE.access.telenet.be] has quit [Excess Flood]
07:47 -!- steven_ [~steven@ptr-2hj4tbi2g7xy3w0lkvrdwmj11.ip6.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:47 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@a80-100-156-239.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:51 -!- eudoxia_ [~eudoxia@r167-57-123-92.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:51 -!- eudoxia_ [~eudoxia@r167-57-123-92.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
07:51 -!- phantomcircuit [~phantomci@strateman.ninja] has left #bitcoin-wizards []
07:54 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:55 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-56-184-138.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
07:55 -!- _biO_ [~biO_@80.156.183.43] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
08:03 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:06 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:07 -!- zooko` is now known as zooko
08:08 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
08:15 -!- steven_ [~steven@ptr-2hj4tbi2g7xy3w0lkvrdwmj11.ip6.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
08:15 -!- steven_ [~steven@d54C43EBE.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:16 -!- licnep [uid4387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-reiwbjkberkpphno] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
08:22 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
08:23 -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
08:25 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:27 -!- jcorgan|away is now known as jcorgan
08:27 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Client Quit]
08:32 -!- steven_ [~steven@d54C43EBE.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
08:39 -!- eragmus1 [~eragmus@c-73-150-48-166.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:41 -!- eragmus1 [~eragmus@c-73-150-48-166.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
08:43 -!- eragmus [~eragmus@c-73-150-48-166.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:46 -!- zooko [~user@c-73-217-16-2.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
08:51 -!- tripleslash [~triplesla@unaffiliated/imsaguy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:56 -!- dEBRUYNE_ [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:56 -!- dEBRUYNE__ [~dEBRUYNE@vp0055.uvt.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:57 -!- eragmus is now known as eragmus1
08:58 -!- desantis [~desantis@68.66.105.177] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:58 -!- eragmus1 is now known as eragmus2
08:58 -!- sparetire_ [~sparetire@unaffiliated/sparetire] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:00 -!- dEBRUYNE_ [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
09:04 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:04 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:04 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Client Quit]
09:05 -!- [Derek] [~derek@199.195.250.122] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:06 -!- [Derek] is now known as Guest51194
09:08 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
09:15 -!- Burrito [~Burrito@unaffiliated/burrito] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:17 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:19 -!- eragmus2 is now known as eragmus
09:22 -!- desantis_ [~desantis@68.66.100.145] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:24 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:26 -!- desantis [~desantis@68.66.105.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
09:26 -!- desantis_ is now known as desantis
09:28 < maaku> kanzure: "congrats, you invented ripple!"
09:29 < kanzure> original ripple had a native digital currency?
09:29 < maaku> kanzure: why does it need to be digital
09:30 < maaku> original ripple would have involved someting akin to localbitcoins for the redemption of IOUs
09:31 < maaku> what jonny hasn't figured out yet is that everyone involved can take the role imagined for the hub, Hector, here
09:32 < alpalp> maaku: people convinced that LN requires hubs
09:32 < alpalp> not sure how to break that misconception
09:32 -!- c-cex-yuriy [uid76808@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-upoqxiakkmmprwye] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:32 < maaku> alpalp: would have helped if Poone didn't propagate that misconception in the very first descriptions of lightning ...
09:33 < coinoperated> this is an interesting convo, I asked on Reddit a few months ago if LN was basically Ripple on top of Bitcoin, someone in the Ripple sub said yes though I don't recall their reasoning
09:33 < maaku> coinoperated: not Ripple Labs. LN is not what Ripple Labs thinks ripple is.
09:33 < maaku> but yes, it is exactly Ryan Fugger's ripple on bitcoin
09:33 < coinoperated> so old ripple, pre XRP
09:34 < alpalp> maaku: Need some fancy graphics and animations to show how it would work.
09:34 < alpalp> point people to that.
09:34 < maaku> alpalp: but can't really lay the blame on anyone because Poone and Tadge were extending "hub and spoke" payment channels as described by this community, which very much did require hubs
09:34 -!- brg444 [46346d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.52.109.0] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:34 -!- eragmus1 [~eragmus@c-73-150-48-166.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:34 < maaku> so Poone was sortof talking to us, in our language, when he talked about hubs of a hub-and-spoke network, even thought LN really doesn't need hubs at all (and in fact, makes them rather uneconomical to run)
09:35 -!- eragmus [~eragmus@c-73-150-48-166.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
09:37 < alpalp> Explaining technical concepts to semi-technical people is probably one of the hardest things to do.
09:37 < kanzure> there's no where on this planet where you have to first explain every detail about a thing you are working on before you work on it.
09:37 < maaku> alpalp: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9KqSgRZYgg
09:38 < alpalp> kanzure: I'm not saying you have to explain every detail, but having a good source of information that explains things in a way they can understand that's accurate is beneficial.
09:39 < maaku> LN lets you do "trustless ripple" by locking up the coins involved
09:39 < kanzure> i have not seen a growth in the number of people able to explain payment channels
09:39 < maaku> but there is in fact real benefit to the trustedform using IOUs as well
09:39 < kanzure> or, rather, i mean, growth in the number of people who spend time explaining payment channels :-)
09:39 < maaku> among other things you can bootstrap decentralized fiat this way
09:39 -!- phantomcircuit [~phantomci@strateman.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:40 < alpalp> kanzure: it's certainly time consuming, and we have a lot of misconceptions due to poor choices of terminology early on that make it harder.
09:40 -!- phantomcircuit [~phantomci@strateman.ninja] has left #bitcoin-wizards []
09:41 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-57-123-92.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:41 < eragmus1> just to confirm, maaku, re: "LN really doesn't need hubs at all (and in fact, makes them rather uneconomical to run)" — is the reason: velocity of money between hub & counterparties… vs. opportunity cost of hub locking money?
09:42 < eragmus1> i think that's how poon described it at HK
09:42 < kanzure> there are just nodes. hubs was a concept of a special type of node. but there are no special types now.
09:42 < instagibbs> I think you should make it clear that there will be hubs, but only where it makes sense.
09:42 < instagibbs> hubs as in "large nodes"
09:43 < kanzure> what happened to the "in a few days" lightning mixnet announcement from a few days ago?
09:45 < eragmus1> what is "mixnet"?
09:45 < coinoperated> i think part of the challenge is that the people who are the natural audience for hearing such an explanation first have to be talked through their preexisting views on block size, to unwind them back to a point of suspended judgement on the subject
09:45 < kanzure> mixnet is "mix network"
09:45 < kanzure> (mixing)
09:45 -!- phantomcircuit [~phantomci@strateman.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:45 < coinoperated> you have to meet people where they are
09:46 < eragmus1> ah okay thanks
09:46 < kanzure> coinoperated: no; you can theoretically understand payment channels even if you want a large max block size.
09:46 < kanzure> desiring that other change does not make payment channels fundamentally different
09:46 < AdrianG> is there any interest in bip47?
09:46 < eragmus1> coinoperated: there is a meme that LN is blockstream created and operated and for-profit-for-blockstream — that creates mental block
09:47 < kanzure> this is rapidly becoming off-topic
09:47 < coinoperated> @kanzure:  you can't if you are already convinced LN is a bandaid on small blocks.
09:48 < eragmus1> AdrianG: samourai wallet is implementing bip47
09:48 < coinoperated> @eragmus1  right
09:48 < kanzure> coinoperated: payment channels are basically zero-conf transactions and literally nobody things that zero-conf is a bandaid on small block size.
09:48 < kanzure> *thinks
09:49 -!- dEBRUYNE__ [~dEBRUYNE@vp0055.uvt.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
09:50 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, payment channels also coalesce multiple smaller payments into a single larger payment
09:50 < eragmus1> AdrianG: more info, see here — https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3vpdyj/samouraiwalletdev_bip47_reusable_payment_codes/
09:50 < AdrianG> eragmus1: source of your info?
09:50 < AdrianG> ok thx
09:50 < eragmus1> np!
09:50 < kanzure> phantomcircuit: by any chance did you look at http://lfe.mit.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/nbt2012.pdf yesterday?
09:51 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, i was on planes literally all day yesterday so no :P
09:52 -!- steven_ [~steven@ptr-2hj4tbi2g7xy3w0lkvrdwmj11.ip6.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:53 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, without reading more than the abstract i would guess that it's a good idea and doomed to fail for entirely political reasons
09:53 < kanzure> well.... i think it's more likely to fail due to competition from other lower-risk bonds.
09:53 < kanzure> lower-risk probably-higher-yield bonds
09:53 < AdrianG> eragmus1: it does not require any change in the core?
09:53 < eragmus1> no, AdrianG, no change. it can work right now.
09:54 < phantomcircuit> the principle obstacle to acquiring funds for biomedical research is that the window of time in which the result will be marketable and patent encumbered is typically only 2-5 years
09:54 < kanzure> yes that is a big obstacle; but also, why bother with risk there when there are many other financial opportunities competing for your investment?
09:54 -!- JackH [~Jack@host-80-43-141-42.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
09:54 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, a structure that moves the ultimate beneficiaries further away from that reality is just going to make that a larger obstacle
09:55 < AdrianG> phantomcircuit: 2-5 years?
09:55 < kanzure> phantomcircuit: the reason why i was looking at this was to see what academia thought about funding for high (technical) risk projects. the conclusion seems to be "lol we have no idea".
09:55 < maaku> eragmus1: it's because there is an opportunity cost for funds used by the hub that does not exist for direct user-to-user connections
09:55 < kanzure> er, high (technical) risk projects that also happen to require lots and lots of capital
09:56 < maaku> to use lightning you need to lock up funds approximately equal to your cash flow needs, which are funds that are going to be idle in hot or warm wallets anyway
09:56 < phantomcircuit> AdrianG, patents are for 20 years and it takes 15-18 years to go from discovery to salable product
09:56 < maaku> but the hub puts on its side of the channel it's own funds that it otherwise would have invested or whatever -- the hub itself does not transact
09:56 < AdrianG> phantomcircuit: you can have multiple patents, on all sorts
09:56 < kanzure> (more specifically: the conclusion is "securitization and sell debt in periodic bond issuances, try to minimize risk by increasing size of the portfolio, but individual project risk is not mitigated")
09:56 < AdrianG> no way its 2 year window. 5+ is more realistic.
09:57 < kanzure> ((securitization of "research-backed obligations" (roalties and intellectual property stuff))
09:57 < kanzure> *royalties
09:57 < eragmus1> right, okay maaku thanks
09:57 -!- steven_ [~steven@ptr-2hj4tbi2g7xy3w0lkvrdwmj11.ip6.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
09:57 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, the problem is really that many of these projects have a negative risk adjusted return
09:57 -!- desantis_ [~desantis@68.66.107.171] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:57 < maaku> so on a macro scale a hub requires twice as much total funds locked up, which is inefficient, and on a micro scale those extra funds are provided to the hub at cost by investors who give up opportunity.. so it's not obvious that running a hub makes economic sense
09:58 < kanzure> even if it was a positive return i still think there are many other less risky opportunities for money to fund
09:58 < phantomcircuit> it's just that nobody likes admitting that developing drugs to cure obscure cancers is a money losing proposition
09:58 < kanzure> this is not a problem only for big pharma. basically lots of high tech stuff has this problem.
09:58 < eragmus1> yeah maaku agreed
09:58 < kanzure> hm well wait, i guess you are saying that the obscurity of the cancers, and the other abandoned rare diseases, have too low returns;
09:58 < eragmus1> although i guess it depends how much traffic the hub gets maaku
09:58 < eragmus1> the 'velocity' component.
09:59 < kanzure> and other tech ventures might have broader addressable markets, so perhaps their risk adjusted return is better looking...... maybe.
09:59 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, high tech projects requiring 100m+ in capital that are high risk but high return? uh like what?
09:59 < maaku> eragmus1: to be certain hubs were pretty much required in pre-lightning payment networks to minimize # of hops, and minimize chance of getting stuck along the route
09:59 < eragmus1> poon said he thinks network topology may be influenced by how the Lightning network begins its life
09:59 -!- JackH [~Jack@host-80-43-141-42.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:59 < maaku> but with lightning those risks go away
09:59 < kanzure> phantomcircuit: brain uploading, cryonics, dyson spheres, self-replication, brain implants, nootropics
09:59 < kanzure> phantomcircuit: longevity, anti-aging stuff.
09:59 < AdrianG> arent biggest costs of drug development marketing related?
10:00 < AdrianG> and not R&D
10:00 < instagibbs> lol dyson spheres
10:00 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, im pretty sure we know how to build a dyson sphere :P
10:00 < kanzure> why would marketing be drug development?
10:00 < instagibbs> why not planet smashers too
10:00 -!- desantis [~desantis@68.66.100.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
10:00 < AdrianG> kanzure: because you need to push drugs you make
10:00 < kanzure> phantomcircuit: there's a few missing steps (materials, mostly, and also the scaling of such an effort)... but yeah sorta.
10:00 < kanzure> AdrianG: that is not drug development. go away.
10:00 -!- desantis [~desantis@bspta1214s1.lecnet.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:00 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, there's actually a surprising amount of money going into brain machine interfacing because of prosthetics
10:00 < kanzure> instagibbs: yeah i am working on planet smashers.
10:01 < maaku> phantomcircuit: actually there are probably some pretty interesting problems in architecting a dyson sphere .. what kind of stress does a solar mass ejection cause?
10:01 < kanzure> phantomcircuit: brain-machine interfacing really sucks, but this is perhaps the most interesting overview lately http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Designing%20scalable%20biological%20interfaces%20-%20Marblestone.pdf
10:01 < phantomcircuit> maaku, i'd expect that you wouldn't actually enclose 100% of the sphere
10:01 < kanzure> yes a dyson swarm is a better idea
10:02 < instagibbs> I think swarm is best yeah
10:02 < coinoperated> Dyson spheres are on topic?
10:02 < phantomcircuit> 1% would be sufficient to produce more energy than we're going to know what to do with for a very very long time
10:02 < coinoperated> they're cool and all
10:02 < maaku> coinoperated: haha nope
10:02 < kanzure> dyson swarms are necessary for advanced bitcoin mining
10:02 < phantomcircuit> :P
10:02 < kanzure> because... reasons.
10:02 < maaku> phantomcircuit: oh I can find uses :P
10:02 < coinoperated> actually they are most likely anything but cool, but YNWIM
10:02 -!- desantis__ [~desantis@68.66.100.63] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:03 < helo> 1) set up dyson swarm, 2) aim energy beam at competing miner fab plants
10:03 < brg444> kanzure the sun is indeed a centralization concern....
10:03 -!- desantis_ [~desantis@68.66.107.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
10:03 < kanzure> docl has been looking into using high-energy lasers for influencing atmospheric chemistry of remote planets for long-range remote fabrication, but i don't think he has any funding yet
10:04 -!- zookolaptop [~user@50.141.117.28] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:04 < helo> (be ready to capture incoming energy beam attack and store for ~free energy)
10:04 < coinoperated> aka the plot of Titan AE
10:04 -!- desantis_ [~desantis@68.66.103.253] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:04 < kanzure> phantomcircuit: so your contention is that for non-big-pharma stuff, high risk tech projects are more likely to get funded as long as they have (way) better risk-adjusted returns compared to big pharma blockdud drugs?
10:04 < helo> orly
10:05  * maaku appreciates how kanzure said "this is rapidly going off topic" with respect to LN/Blockstream and then went on to discuss dyson spheres & big pharma
10:05 < zookolaptop> I see that the wizards channel is living up to its name today.
10:05 < eragmus1> lol maaku i noticed same :P
10:05 < zookolaptop> lol
10:05 < kanzure> maaku: no, the off-topic part was assuming that user misunderstanding of tech is a good reason to placate to their misunderstandings...
10:06 < kanzure> 09:46 < eragmus1> coinoperated: there is a meme that LN is blockstream created and operated and for-profit-for-blockstream — that creates mental block
10:06 < kanzure> that stuff.
10:06 -!- desantis [~desantis@bspta1214s1.lecnet.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
10:06 -!- desantis_ is now known as desantis
10:06 < eragmus1> they're not misunderstanding though, kanzure
10:06 < eragmus1> humans are emotional creatures, mostly
10:06 < coinoperated> it so happens that users pay the bills
10:06 -!- crowleyman [~crowleyma@213.231.20.119.pool.breezein.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:06 < eragmus1> so blockstream FUD is very effective at creating mental/emotional block.
10:07 < kanzure> this is still off-topic though.
10:07 < AdrianG> kanzure: do you have data on how many drugs flunk out after multi-site phase 3/4 trials?
10:07 < kanzure> "Diagnosing the decline in pharmaceutical R&D efficiency" http://www.nature.com/nrd/journal/v11/n3/full/nrd3681.html
10:08 < AdrianG> paywalled ffs
10:08 -!- desantis__ [~desantis@68.66.100.63] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
10:08 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/Diagnosing%20the%20decline%20in%20pharmaceutical%20research%20and%20development%20efficiency.pdf
10:08 < kanzure> so impatient
10:08 < AdrianG> time is money.
10:09 < coinoperated> you aren't truly a full stack developer if you can't code ML at one end, and talk the VC's brother through his objections over your spelling of the logo at the other
10:09 < AdrianG> nice. lots of papers.
10:09 < kanzure> AdrianG: also http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/
10:10 < AdrianG> bookmarked.
10:10 -!- jcorgan is now known as jcorgan|away
10:10 -!- desantis [~desantis@68.66.103.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
10:11 -!- belcher [~user@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
10:11 < kanzure> phantomcircuit: so, what's the actual conversion between high tech risk and necessary yield/return amount?
10:12 -!- zookolap` [~user@2601:281:8001:26aa:e943:9716:86b3:613b] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:12 < kanzure> probably just a function of the other competing investment opportunities
10:12 < kanzure> makes sense that some projects would be always inaccessible due to overly high risk and insufficient feasible returns.
10:12 -!- zookolap` is now known as zooko
10:13 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:14 -!- zookolaptop [~user@50.141.117.28] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
10:15 -!- Pugg- is now known as Pugg
10:15 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, afaict the people investing in high risk things are looking for 10x returns
10:16 < kanzure> well "high risk" is relative though
10:16 < phantomcircuit> 1000:1
10:16 < kanzure> who's making these odds? or er.. what? how do you even compare risks.
10:17 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, that's the part that separates rich vcs from other vcs
10:18 < AdrianG> so its basically lack of increases in effiency at clinical trial stage.
10:18 < kanzure> clinical trial extreme costs, fda costs, lots and lots of ineffiency in regulation around this too. and insurance costs.
10:18 < AdrianG> no wonder so many trials are done outside the US now.
10:18 < kanzure> phantomcircuit: but they don't chase risk, they chase traction.
10:19 < AdrianG> kanzure: phase 3+ thats just to gain market authorization.
10:19 < AdrianG> these are all marketing/regulatory costs.
10:19 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, sure, but someone somewhere took a risk before there was any traction
10:20 < maaku> this should probably be on ##hplusroadmap, not wizards
10:20 < AdrianG> i actually thought i was in hplus lo
10:20 < kanzure> phantomcircuit: i don't know if that's true :-).
10:20 -!- phantomcircuit [~phantomci@strateman.ninja] has left #bitcoin-wizards []
10:20 -!- desantis [~desantis@crkfmux01.lecnet.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:20 -!- desantis [~desantis@crkfmux01.lecnet.com] has quit [Client Quit]
10:21 -!- phantomcircuit [~phantomci@strateman.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:21 -!- eragmus [~eragmus@c-73-150-48-166.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:21 < phantomcircuit> >.>
10:23 < zooko> What I like about twitter is that it is filtered on people, not filtered on topic.
10:23 < zooko> And, that I get to choose my own set of people-filters, rather than subscribe to some set of people-filters maintained by a moderator or whatever.
10:24 < eragmus> so AdrianG yes, more bip47 info is at that link i posted. let me know if you have other questions about it
10:24 < kanzure> are you saying you like us
10:24 < zooko> Basically, I'd rather talk about drug development with the people of #bitcoin-wizards than with the people of ##hplusroadmap
10:24 < zooko> Oh well.
10:24 -!- desantis [~desantis@68.66.106.156] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:24 < zooko> Maybe I'll go talk about drug development with people on twitter.
10:24 -!- eragmus1 [~eragmus@c-73-150-48-166.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
10:25 < eragmus> lol. zooko it's not invalid. but wizards doesn't seem appropriate. instead, a room should be created all about 'off-topic but with bitcoiners' perhaps. i would definitely join.
10:25 < AdrianG> eragmus: you are working on bip47?
10:25 < AdrianG> or what is the root of your interest in it
10:25 < kanzure> re the hplusroadmap channel, a description is over here http://diyhpl.us/wiki/hplusroadmap
10:25 < eragmus> no AdrianG "privacy ftw!", so i take interest in everything of that sort
10:25 -!- desantis [~desantis@68.66.106.156] has quit [Client Quit]
10:26 -!- desantis [~desantis@68.66.106.156] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:26 < AdrianG> oic
10:26  * zooko creates #bitcoin-wizards-offtopic
10:27 < eragmus> joined.
10:28 < coinoperated> this will become even more poplar than -wizards
10:28 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
10:28 < instagibbs> can't wait for #bitcoin-wizards-offtopic-discuss-moderated
10:28 < coinoperated> -bork-bork-bork
10:28 < helo> done.
10:29 < kanzure> tech financing (like through bond issuances) is on-topic, i think.
10:29 -!- brg444 [46346d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.52.109.0] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
10:29 < kanzure> speculative tech regarding cryptocurrency-based bonds has often been on-topic in the past.
10:33 < zooko> lol
10:34 < zooko> lol, #bitcoin-wizards-offtopic is hopping
10:35 -!- RoboTedd_ [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:36 -!- desantis [~desantis@68.66.106.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
10:37 -!- brg444 [46346d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.52.109.0] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:38 -!- dEBRUYNE__ [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:38 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
10:41 -!- desantis [~desantis@68.66.96.249] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:45 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
10:50 -!- desantis_ [~desantis@68.66.106.220] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:53 -!- desantis [~desantis@68.66.96.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
10:53 -!- desantis_ is now known as desantis
10:55 -!- Piper-Off is now known as Monthrect
10:56 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@2a02:8108:73f:f6e4:e23f:49ff:fe47:9364] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
11:03 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:03 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
11:06 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:07 -!- desantis [~desantis@68.66.106.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
11:15 -!- JackH [~Jack@host-80-43-141-42.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
11:16 -!- JayDugger [~jwdugger@108.19.186.58] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:17 -!- brg444 [46346d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.52.109.0] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
11:18 -!- kmels [~kmels@120.62.151.186.static.intelnet.net.gt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:21 -!- tripleslash [~triplesla@unaffiliated/imsaguy] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
11:30 -!- desantis [~desantis@68.66.106.27] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:30 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f11db5b.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:30 -!- crowleyman [~crowleyma@213.231.20.119.pool.breezein.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com]
11:34 -!- desantis_ [~desantis@65.183.107.54] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:35 -!- desantis [~desantis@68.66.106.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
11:35 -!- desantis_ is now known as desantis
11:40 -!- desantis [~desantis@65.183.107.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
11:46 -!- prosody [sid32673@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kvqphxetakwxicrd] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
11:51 -!- civos [~civ0s@50.248.81.65] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:59 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:13 -!- brg444 [18257df2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.37.125.242] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:14 -!- prosody [sid32673@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qbcfoxyyvfgqzquh] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:15 -!- Jeremy_Rand_2 [~user@ip68-97-45-209.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
12:15 -!- Jeremy_Rand_2 [~user@ip68-97-45-209.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:16 -!- droark [~droark@c-24-22-36-12.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:23 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@tardis.krellan.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:24 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@tardis.krellan.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:28 -!- zooko [~user@2601:281:8001:26aa:e943:9716:86b3:613b] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
12:31 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
12:33 -!- lorenzo_ [~lorenzo@cpe-76-176-116-97.san.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:33 -!- JackH [~Jack@host-80-43-140-107.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:34 -!- lorenzo_ [~lorenzo@cpe-76-176-116-97.san.res.rr.com] has left #bitcoin-wizards []
12:35 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:37 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-57-123-92.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
12:45 -!- matsjj [~matsjj@p5B209304.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
12:48 -!- cluckj [~cluckj@pool-108-16-231-242.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
12:49 -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:55 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:56 -!- dEBRUYNE__ [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
13:00 -!- qadaemon [~textual@12.33.253.130] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
13:06 -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
13:11 -!- bit2017 [~linker@171.250.100.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
13:17 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:17 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:32 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:33 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:38 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
13:38 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:39 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:39 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:41 -!- dEBRUYNE__ [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:44 -!- Tomiii [~Tommiii@162.247.73.201] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:55 -!- atgreen [~green@CPE687f74122463-CM00fc8d24cab0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:57 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:57 -!- fuc [~fuc@91.210.105.101] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:57 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:06 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
14:10 < alpalp> block header and transactions
14:10 < alpalp> oops
14:11 -!- morcos [~morcos@static-100-38-11-146.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
14:12 -!- sdaftuar_ [~sdaftuar@static-100-38-11-146.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
14:12 -!- zxzzt_ [~prod@static-100-38-11-146.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
14:13 -!- sdaftuar [~sdaftuar@static-100-38-11-146.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:13 -!- zxzzt [~prod@static-100-38-11-146.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:13 -!- morcos [~morcos@static-100-38-11-146.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:15 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
14:19 -!- jtimon [~quassel@74.29.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:19 -!- JackH [~Jack@host-80-43-140-107.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
14:24 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:25 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:25 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:32 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@a80-100-156-239.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
14:36 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:36 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:37 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:37 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:38 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
14:39 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:42 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
14:42 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Client Quit]
14:44 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:46 -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@216-15-125-203.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: GGuyZ]
14:47 -!- sipa [~pw@2a02:348:86:3011::1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:49 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:50 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Client Quit]
14:53 -!- JackH [~Jack@host-80-43-140-107.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:58 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:59 -!- Cory [~C@unaffiliated/cory] has quit []
15:03 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
15:04 -!- grubles is now known as grubIes
15:05 -!- grubIes is now known as grubles
15:05 -!- grubles is now known as `grubles
15:05 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
15:05 -!- `grubles is now known as grubles`
15:06 -!- grubles` is now known as grubles
15:08 -!- grubles is now known as grub1es
15:08 -!- grub1es is now known as grubles
15:19 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:21 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:25 -!- bramc [~bram@38.99.42.130] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:28 -!- koshii_ [~0@c-68-58-151-30.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:28 -!- koshii_ [~0@c-68-58-151-30.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit]
15:29 -!- Tomiii [~Tommiii@162.247.73.201] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
15:30 -!- Monthrect is now known as Piper-Off
15:40 -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@216-15-125-203.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:53 -!- andytoshi [~andytoshi@unaffiliated/andytoshi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:59 < bramc> I think I mentioned this already, but there are two things which seem to be missing from the roadmap: (1) Specific plans for when and how to roll out opt-in replace by fee, and (2) discussion of whether and when to roll out a 'not valid after' feature for transactions, although I think that one has some serious technical issues.
16:00 < bramc> Although come to think of it maybe those issues and be worked around by putting the 'must exist by' in the output rather than in the transaction itself.
16:01 < bramc> Not the most aesthetic approach, but it should work fine.
16:02 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:06 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f11db5b.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
16:10 -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@216-15-125-203.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: GGuyZ]
16:19 -!- kmels [~kmels@120.62.151.186.static.intelnet.net.gt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
16:23 < bramc> With regards to rollout of opt-in rbf, I'd suggest putting a specific date of when they'll start being accepted by default in the reference implementation. On a technical level, it's probably to define the date as the first time when the median of 11 consecutive blocks has a timestamp exceeding a set time, plus a fixed number of blocks on top of it, probably two days worth.
16:26 -!- dEBRUYNE__ [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
16:33 -!- bramc [~bram@38.99.42.130] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:33 -!- bramc [~bram@38.99.42.130] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:35 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:35 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:36 < Anduck> wasn't opt-in rbf frozen for 0.12?
16:39 -!- Yoghur114_2 [~jorn@g227014.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:45 -!- berndj [~berndj@azna.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
16:47 -!- fuc [~fuc@91.210.105.101] has quit []
16:47 -!- bramc [~bram@38.99.42.130] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:47 -!- bramc [~bram@38.99.42.130] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:48 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:49 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:52 -!- berndj [~berndj@azna.co.za] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:59 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:59 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:03 -!- brg444 [18257df2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.37.125.242] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
17:05 < bramc> Anduck, Hmm, it seems it is merged, although this post doesn't say when it's slated for release, and oddly the list of major features for 0.12 doesn't include it https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/670281556536201216
17:07 < bramc> Also doesn't seem to be any particular timetable of when it goes into effect, which probably means as soon as people upgrade. The solution to the controversy around that one may be 'The core developers do not care about your whining'
17:08 < eragmus> 'The core developers do not care about your whining' — that will make the hivemind more angry
17:09 < bramc> Good thing I'm not a core developer so nobody can claim they're saying that.
17:09 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:10 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:11 < eragmus> bramc: Ha, don't give them ideas. Paranoid enough as it is.
17:14 < bramc> In the case of opt-in rbf it really is such a no-brainer that shoving it in without consulting the horde is perfectly reasonable.
17:15 < eragmus> No need to consult, but at least 'inform' via Reddit post, or Blog post, or FAQ document.
17:16 -!- roconnor [~roconnor@host-45-58-251-192.dyn.295.ca] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:16 < eragmus> I guess you read the tweet replies to that tweet you posted… and lost some hope.
17:17 < eragmus> For such people, yeah, there is no hope basically. Or it's not worth the time to educate every last one of that type of person.
17:17 < eragmus> (IMO)
17:18 < alpalp> hivemind just needs to get obsessed with the next idiotic idea- unlimited.
17:18 < alpalp> let them focus on that
17:20 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
17:21 < bramc> alpalp, What is unlimited?
17:22 < bramc> This is about the closest there's been to hive engagement, it makes me think that discussing highly technical topics on reddit is a lost cause: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3urm8o/optin_rbf_is_misunderstood_ask_questions_about_it/
17:23 < alpalp> bramc: even more insanity than XT.  *no* block size, everyone determines it individually what they'll pass along.  Constitution for running it.  I'd think it was a parody if I didn't know.  Poe's Law.
17:24 -!- bramc [~bram@38.99.42.130] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
17:25 < alpalp> bramc: I've seen some good discussion on technical topics in the past, but it's so overrun with trolls now, it's hard to do so without conspiracy theories and other nonsense.
17:28 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:32 -!- bramc [~bram@38.99.42.130] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:32 -!- jcorgan|away is now known as jcorgan
17:33 < bramc> alpalp, Nothing could possibly go wrong therte
17:33 < alpalp> bramc: think it's Peter R's brainchild
17:34 < alpalp> should just pet them on the head like children, tell them play nicely, then when miners don't adopt it they can get mad at the miners instead.
17:34 < bramc> That makes completely demented sense
17:34 < alpalp> http://www.bitcoinunlimited.info/
17:36 < bramc> Next there's going to be blowback that the high speed relay and weak blocks do damage to scaling
17:41 < alpalp> segwit rolls out fast: "omg, untested", segwit rolls out slow : "omg, we need capacity increase now!"
17:41 < bramc> Dumb question: Is the canonical ordering of transactions in blocks the lexical ordering of their hashes?
17:42 < andytoshi> bramc: i don't think there is a canonical ordering
17:43 -!- tulip [~tulip@unaffiliated/tulip] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:43 < bramc> I could have sworn there was something about a BIP which specified a canonical ordering
17:44 < tulip> bramc: lexicographical ordering would produce invalid blocks.
17:45 < bramc> tulip, Huh? I thought the blockchain format allows any ordering.
17:45 < alpalp> bramc: you can have chained transactions in a block.
17:45 < tulip> transactions are processed serially, if you ordered by the hash you can end up spending an output before it was created.
17:46 < bramc> tulip, aaaah, thank you. That's... painful, but understandable.
17:46 < alpalp> IIRC a lot of miners will order blocks (priority)|(sorted by fees) with occasional chains mixed in.
17:47 < Eliel_> bramc: I think the answer to your question is that the orering is unspecified, unless needed, in which case there's only one valid order :P
17:49 < bramc> I was wondering if it could be reused for the single-block hash root. Doesn't matter quite so much though. Thinking about it now, it's very clear that it's imperative to have a hash root of just the utxo diffs in the one block and have the big utxo set be trailing by one (or two if you want to be on the extreme safe side). Maybe even can skip the current block utxo diff
17:51 < tulip> alpalp: that might be fun to explore. word on the street is that some miners disable priority stuff completely, but I don't know how true that is.
17:52 < tulip> (calculating priority is sort of a pain, really)
17:55 < tulip> bramc: it's sort of a deficiency in Bitcoin in general, canonical sorting would make a lot of sense in many cases.
17:56 < tulip> though I'm not how you'd do that in blocks, as any sort would need to also take into account chains of transactions.
17:56 < bramc> tulip, Thankfully the amount of stuff going into any one block is small enough that it isn't a big deal.
17:59 -!- RoboTedd_ [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:59 < tulip> bramc: blocks can get pretty unwieldy depending on what you're doing with them, the format of them on disk needs lots of iteration to load (you can't seek to a particular position for example).
18:00 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:03 < tulip> I'm not sure if that matters to anyone else really, and I'm not sure what the optimal way of storing the transactions for a block would really be.
18:05 -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@216-15-125-203.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:05 < eragmus> if you guys want another topic to discuss —> http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/012103.html
18:06 < eragmus> "Segregated witnesses and validationless mining"
18:06 < bramc> tulip, Hard to say. Either dependencies have to be built in or you have to rederive them locally to support child pays. Neither are particularly appealing.
18:06 < alpalp> tulip: It depends what you are needing to look at the blocks for.  Either you have UTXO cached, or you don't have/aren't caching it and need to recreate it (temporarily or permanently).
18:07 < alpalp> or you are just gathering information?  Any other cases?
18:07 < tulip> I'm just musing.
18:08 < tulip> with the current block format you don't know where transactions start and end. so to load them all you have to walk though each transaction (walk each input of the transaction, then each output) and then you've got the start of the next one.
18:09 < alpalp> tulip: but how would you know where the one you want is anyway?
18:12 < bramc> eragmus, It's probably best to fix those problems with weak blocks/iblt/protocol enhancements rather than trying to add new technical requirements.
18:12 < tulip> if TXID were uniformly random and strictly ordered you could make some assumptions, but neither is true.
18:14 < alpalp> tulip: i suppose you could order transactions by txid, and then just do a 2-pass parse on the blocks for validity.
18:14 < bramc> alpalp, That would make running a minimal node more expensive
18:14 < bramc> And increase verification latency
18:15 -!- TBI__ [~TBI@154.92-220-180.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:15 < alpalp> bramc: you are changing order of calculations, does it really make it slower?   Unless verifying order was required?
18:15 < tulip> TXID aren't random though.
18:16 < tulip> well they're random, but anyone can grind them to any extent they want.
18:16 < bramc> alpalp, Well you need to at least pass through and figure out dependencies so everything can be verified
18:16 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
18:17 < alpalp> bramc: you go through calculate all the txids first to verify the merkle root, then make a second pass verifying tx are valid (and have the dependency txids calculated).
18:17 < alpalp> am I missing something?
18:17 < tulip> I think Bitcoin Core does that anyway.
18:18 < tulip> validation is run from least to most expensive, proof of work verification, merkle root, then actual transaction checks.
18:19 < bramc> alpalp, Right now there isn't a merkle root, but yeah once there is you need to do two passes anyway, it's a matter of either having to figure out dependencies or having to sort. Not sure which of those is slower. In practice of course we're stuck with having to sort because of the current requirements.
18:19 < eragmus> okay bramc, noted thanks :)
18:20 -!- smk [a801063b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.168.1.6.59] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:22 < alpalp> bramc: merkle root in the header?
18:22 < bramc> alpalp, Yeah that's my goal
18:23 < tulip> it is in the header today?
18:23 < alpalp> bramc: yeah, I thought it was there today as well.
18:23 -!- GoonClooney [uid44280@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kobvbqakdeipwbjo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:24 < bramc> It's possible that the merkle root of just the transactions for the current block are in the header and I'm unaware of it. The merkle root for the whole utxo set most definitely is not.
18:24 < tulip> that's all correct.
18:25 < tulip> the block header has the merkle root, then the block binary is just a counter for the number of transactions, and then the raw transaction binaries. the node must rebuild the whole merkle root itself to do validation, that all the transactions are included correctly and that the root matches the header.
18:25 < bramc> Ah, thanks. The merkle roots of new utxos and deleted utxos are different things which I believe aren't included right now.
18:25 < alpalp> bramc: that is correct
18:25 < tulip> bramc: no they're not, the concept of a UTXO database is actually pretty new. wxBitcoin was pretty nuts and did things very differently.
18:26 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:26 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:26 < bramc> Oh right, *that* merkle root. Is that one even of a balanced tree?
18:27 < tulip> it's padded out to be balanced, I think from memory the merkle trees used in Bitcoin aren't optimal in some way.
18:27 < bramc> tulip, I doubt that it's 'new' in the sense that it's a completely obvious thing to add for people experienced with crypto protocols. It's 'new' in the sense that nobody has particularly strong confidence that it can be made to work performantly, hence what I'm currently building.
18:29 < bramc> tulip, It's useful for that to be balanced because *in principle* it lets you authenticate bits of the tree before you have the whole thing. I don't think the protocol actually supports that though.
18:30 -!- eragmus1 [~eragmus@c-73-150-48-166.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:30 -!- brg444 [46346d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.52.109.0] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:31 < tulip> bramc: what I'm talking about is that the UTXO database was only added to Bitcoin Core in 0.8. prior to that wxBitcoin stored outputs in BerkeleyDB actually in the original merkle trees. the description of pruning in the Bitcoin whitepaper has nodes snipping off spent transactions from these trees which is completely unnecessary and inefficient.
18:32 -!- eragmus [~eragmus@c-73-150-48-166.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
18:32 -!- bramc [~bram@38.99.42.130] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:32 -!- bramc [~bram@38.99.42.130] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:33 < tulip> bramc: did you lose that last message?
18:34 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fkryewbhvicryhts] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
18:34 < bramc> tulip, I got it from the logs. My reaction is 'Eugh'
18:34 -!- TBI [~TBI@154.92-220-180.customer.lyse.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:35 < bramc> Clearly Satoshi is not a data engineer.
18:38 < tulip> there's details in the source which definitely point to Bitcoin not being intended to be used in the real world, at least originally.
18:40 < brg444> more science fiction?
18:40 < brg444> http://www.bitcoinunlimited.info/1txn
18:41 < brg444> "An Examination of Single Transaction Blocks and Their Effect on Network Throughput and Block Size"
18:41 < brg444> w/ charts & colors!
18:41 < alpalp> brg444: I hope this thing finds a way to exist somehow just to watch the train wreck
18:42 < kanzure> as much as those ideas seem to be completely wrong, let's not turn this channel into a hatefactory.
18:42 < tulip> brg444: off topic, please.
18:43 < brg444> Tbf I was genuinely posting it in the interest of others. it seems at least....somewhat researched
18:44 < brg444> always help to validate and not assume they're wrong ;)
18:45 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
18:45 < bramc> brg444, The theory behind that is based on a coherent set of assumptions. Those assumptions happen to be wrong, but for reasons which are sufficiently technical that arguing them on reddit is a bit of a lost cause
18:46 < brg444> I'd agree to that
18:47 < bramc> brg444, It's based on Peter R's work which we're already familiar with. The wrong assumptions are that (1) the time to propagate a block is linearly proportional to the number of transactions accepted, and (2) that's a good thing
18:50 < brg444> Yes I also got this impression. It's unfortunate to see such efforts being put to such unproductive use. bramc I never got to ask but I'd be curious to know what it is your dabbling in w/ regards to Bitcoin at the moment. you seem to have something in the pipes?
18:51 < bramc> brg444, I've been working on a merkle set which I babble about on here fairly regularly. It's all the hard work of making a database.
18:51 < bramc> brg444, Also I've been working on making a proofs of space based system work. That's still in theoretical discussions.
18:52 < coinoperated> bramc, what sense of space
18:52 < brg444> interesting. thanks.
18:53 < bramc> coinoperated, In the sense of making 'mining' require disk storage but not power
18:54 < coinoperated> oh is this like BurstCoin
18:54 < bramc> AUGH
18:54 < coinoperated> lemme guess, you have heard that one before
18:55 < tulip> coinoperated: burstcoin is a broken concept, same effectively as nothing at stake.
18:55 < katu> coinoperated: harder than burstcoin, proof of storing some data in particular
18:55 < katu> not just erasure
18:56 < bramc> No, not like burstcoin. Yes, I've researched this. It's extremely difficult to make a proof of work where the bottleneck is truly storage and not power. The one in spacemint is probably good, but I believe that system as a whole needs some further improvement.
18:57 < coinoperated> ah ok, i know little about Burst because on the surface of it it seemed like a dead end, and altcoin market shenanigans will undermine even the best of intentions anyway.
18:58 < coinoperated> where can i follow your current work on this
18:58 < katu> coinoperate[Dd: any proof of storage is unfixable, not only burst.
18:58 < bramc> coinoperated, There isn't any public writeup of it. There's some babbling in this channel's logs by me and some email discussion which is ongoing
18:59 < coinoperated> @katu:  this is my strong hunch, but I have no proof
18:59 < bramc> katu, Untrue! Or at least, probably untrue. Fixing proof of storage is very nontrivial though.
18:59 < katu> bramc: as in, it could replace PoW?
19:00 < coinoperated> dilute PoW, no?
19:00 < katu> bramc: that works for proof of erasure
19:00 < katu> bramc: but storage is entirely new level
19:00 < katu> (storage, as in, useful data)
19:00 < katu> not just erasure garbage
19:00 -!- jannes_ [~jannes@ip54544d54.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:00 < bramc> It appears to be that you have to throw in a bunch of proofs of time and engineer the system as a whole very carefully. It results in a bit of a rube goldberg contraption, but it does appear to be viable. Assuming of course (1) a valid proof of space primitive (2) a valid proof of time primitive and (3) a bunch of carefully done engineering to put them together properly.
19:01 < bramc> katu, I'm talking about erasure
19:01 < katu> oh, ok then
19:01 < coinoperated> wouldn't you need to make sure someone isnt faking storage activity with a summy interface
19:01 < katu> erasure seems workable
19:01 < coinoperated> dummy
19:01 < bramc> The paper spacemint is based on uses the term 'proofs of storage' to refer to what you're calling erasure
19:01 < katu> as long you get that oracle in 2)
19:01 < katu> NUMS oracle
19:01 < coinoperated> i guess this is where the valid proof of storage primitive part comes in
19:02 < bramc> katu, There's a workable primitive for (2) although it's highly inelegant: You do repeated hashing with checkpoints.
19:02 < katu> bramc: yeah, there are multiple approaches all of which seem to have some gotcha
19:03 < jl2012> bramc, "not valid after" could be added with a new witness structure, but that violate some basic assumptions of Bitcoin that a valid tx should be valid forever (unless doublespent)
19:04 < katu> bramc: some of the more entertaining: abandon blockchain altogether, you get only timestamped designated signers, not data, this getting rid of the grinding problem. now you can use winner from 100 "blocks" in the past as a NUMS.
19:04 < katu> bramc: another proposal is to use separate PoW chain as a nums oracle
19:04 -!- jannes [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
19:04 < katu> say, current bitcoin blockchain :)
19:05 < katu> both carry some huge "but" with it
19:05 < bramc> jl2012, Yes it violates that assumption. There's a strong argument to be made that it's worth getting rid of that assumption so that when a transaction fails because of lack of willingness to pay the fee you can know that it has well and truly failed without having to spend it to invalidate the old transaction, which of course you aren't going to do because of that fee problem.
19:05 -!- jannes__ [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:06 < bramc> katu, Proof of steak also has interesting technical problems. Unfortunately even if you solve them all you're still left with a proof of steak system, which isn't really decentralized at all anyway.
19:07 < katu> bramc: it all boils down how you deal with the source of timestamp.
19:08 -!- bit2017 [~linker@171.250.100.43] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:08 < katu> simplest would be to simply use PoW for timestamps. this would work pretty well for late-stage bitcoin where nodes are incentivized to prove they actually know random sections of blockchain data.
19:09 < katu> and PoS scheme would be just auxiliary proof, with no direct monetary reward incentive, but say, incentive for others to even accept your PoW work
19:09 < katu> (S=storage)
19:09 -!- jannes_ [~jannes@ip54544d54.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
19:11 < bramc> katu, cow systems also have lots of problems with handling steakholders being offline
19:11 < katu> well, the idea here is basically that you prove knownledge part of the chain depending on your pow result
19:12 < katu> so to mine, you *must* know the whole chain
19:12 < katu> additionaly, you have to broadcast that tiny part of chain you've just proven
19:12 < jl2012> bramc, ok if outputs of "not valid after" inputs are not allowed to be spent within 100 confirmation. But that will make it much less useful.
19:12 -!- bit2017 [~linker@171.250.100.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
19:12 < katu> this guarantees no disintegration of chain in some dht style storage.
19:12 < katu> this is all assuming people come to terms with the fact that all blokchain data might measure petabytes
19:13 < katu> and that storing all of it is simply inpractictal and not actually necessary.
19:13 < bramc> jl2012, It's okay to spend them immediately if they get committed more than 100 before their not valid after as well
19:14 < bramc> katu, Not sure what you're talking about now. Neither erasure nor cow requires a particularly big blockchain.
19:15 < katu> bramc: i'm not sure what "cow" is. i'm rambling about engineering ideas of useful PoS proof
19:15 < katu> PoS itself is useless, as it seems to always result just nothing at stake / no thermodynamic cap of PoW
19:15 < bramc> katu, 'cow' is my slightly obnoxious term for proofs of steak systems
19:16 < katu> bramc: please use more neutral NaS :)
19:16 < katu> PoS=storage, not steak
19:16 < katu> well, im interested in this erasure of yours. i assume you treat it as a huge mem-hard PoW then
19:16 -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@216-15-125-203.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: GGuyZ]
19:17 < bramc> katu, People have done much more involved analysis than I have on it and have come to the conclusion that you can't prove that a cow system will disintegrate because they can always reach a stable state where somebody has completely 0wned the system and lets it run well enough to maximize their profits. There's probably a real-world lesson in there
19:18 < bramc> katu, There's some info on proofs of space here: https://github.com/kwonalbert/spacemint
19:19 < katu> bramc: is that the precommited pebbles?
19:19 < katu> those cant store data.
19:20 < bramc> katu, Yes this is not 'useful' work
19:20 < katu> im somewhat convinced they dont give the "inverted function" enough justice
19:21 < katu> there are simple schemes to make those not variable tmto
19:21 < katu> and can even possibly store data; albeit with overhead
19:21 < bramc> katu, We seem to have a name collision here. You're referring to proof of space as representing some kind of useful storage. That project (and the academic papers generally) use it to refer to the storage resource with no useful work in it
19:21 < katu> bramc: yeah, its somewhat unfortunate
19:22 < bramc> I haven't read through their latest proof technique. I have some questions about how it works if you know it reasonably well. I independently came up with the 'obvious' approach to proofs of space, which is unfortunately busted.
19:23 < katu> bramc: pebble graphs dont strike me as practical because can't be constructed incrementally. its a time/space hard computation which is then reused to answer random queries.
19:23 < katu> bramc: your intution behind simple function inversion might be right, at least i arrived at a provable result those are not infact vulnerable to variable TMTO as the paper claims.
19:23 < coinoperated> dumb question, doesnt all Proof-of-(IRL_commitment) have to involve no useful recovery of value from the resource committed in order to be economically predictable
19:24 -!- justanot1eruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:24 < coinoperated> if you can get something of value (useful work) back from your sacrificed resource commitment, you haven't actually committed anything of value
19:25 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
19:25 < bramc> katu, the answering random queries thing is what I want/need anyway, not sure what you mean by incremental, and also not sure if you're saying that you have a proof of space technique which you like better
19:25 -!- justanot1eruser is now known as justanotheruser
19:25 < katu> bramc: well, what is it you thought of and got busted
19:26 < katu> bramc: was it a simple lookup table of intractable function (hash or number field) mapping?
19:26 < bramc> coinoperated, eeeeh, sort of. It would be a nice bonus for something to involve some useful work but the practicalities seem to be ridiculous.
19:26 < bramc> katu, Yeah it was use the closeness of a secure hash of a public key, and you prepare for it by storing a whole lot of public keys in sorted order (simplifying a little here)
19:27 < katu> bramc: let me introduce the concept of "powcrypt", you can take it from here. i suspect you might arrive at same result as i did.
19:28 < coinoperated> right.. see if a miner could recover costs of mining by doing useful work, then the cost of proof drops for that miner.  seems like this would cause chaos
19:28 < coinoperated> unless the recovered cost could somehow be made exactly the same value for all miners
19:29 < bramc> katu, I don't think I'm going to be able to find it from that. I have limited bandwidth to think about things right now and proofs of space primitives are sufficiently technical and sufficiently well-handled by others that I haven't been thinking about them at all
19:30 < bramc> coinoperated, That's one of many problems. Another is that useful problems don't conform to the needs of PoW systems at all.
19:30 < katu> bramc: say, you have some predefined string of data. you chop it to say, 30 bit chunks. for each 30 bit chunk, you find 36 bit (1/e overhead or something like that) or so preimage which hashes to each 30 bit chunk.
19:30 < katu> bramc: this way, at roughly 20% overhead you can store arbitrary data, which is difficult to compute, but easy to verify you actually did that computation.
19:31 < katu> now, why this can't be TMTOd? the data you're going to store are commitment, and you do this encoding twice.
19:31 < bramc> katu, I'm unfortunately not following. Are you proposing a proof of space?
19:32 < katu> yes, one which cant be tmtod. its necessary for infinite-size blocks in bitcoin :)
19:34 < bramc> I can only think of these things in terms of an API where there's a challenge and then there's a response which has an amount of quality which goes up proportionally to the amount of space used and has a stochastic distribution
19:34 < bramc> Not even sure if the spacemint one has that sort of API
19:35 < katu> your "quality" metric in those cases is not defining property of PoS
19:36 < katu> its ultimately yes/no thing. if you want to add quality metric, you add multiple copies, each with different encoding and then just hash it against a difficulty target. it gets a stochastic metric regarding to storage used.
19:36 < katu> now this is problematic with the proposed pebble graphs. you have to construct huge, several-gb pebble trees and thats it. want to add more proof? construct another huge several gb pebble tree.
19:36 < katu> thats what i meant with not being "incremental"
19:38 -!- tulip [~tulip@unaffiliated/tulip] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com]
19:38 < bramc> Yes that's very annoying. The busted simple approach is so beautiful.
19:39 < bramc> I actually need that API to get the system as a whole to work properly.
19:40 < bramc> You can even do the busted approach on the unallocated sections of your hard drive, and if they get allocated over oh well, you only lose out on proportional space.
19:41 < bramc> I would like to understand your proposed approach, as would others I think, although at the moment I have merkle sets on the brain and am hacking on that and chatting at the same time, so my cycles are a bit low.
19:41 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:41 < katu> bramc: i plan on writing some sort of poc on it
19:41 < katu> bramc: but principally, its similiar to cuckoo cycle
19:42 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:42 < katu> you store "path" to solve some puzzle, and that puzzle just so happens to be commitment-encrypted useful data
19:42 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:43 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:43 < bramc> katu, I have a decent understanding of cukoo, so that at least gives a hint.
19:43 < bramc> But a writeup is needed and would be much appreciated, and not just by me.
19:43 < bramc> Also if you could come up with better proofs of time that would be helpful as well.
19:43 < katu> oh well, its christmas ;_;
19:43  * katu goes to write up 'powcrypt' approach
19:49 -!- pistdov [~pistdov@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/pistdov] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:52 -!- Guest58 [~textual@pool-96-246-185-190.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:53 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:53 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:02 -!- bram__ [~bram@38.99.42.130] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:02 -!- bramc [~bram@38.99.42.130] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:03 < Guest58> what are people's thoughts about applying blockchain / cryptocurrency to high volume capital markets transactions like cash equities / fixed income?
20:03 < Guest58> Could the clearance and settlement time for these transactions be significantlly reduced?
20:04 -!- eragmus [~eragmus@c-73-150-48-166.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:06 < katu> Guest58: no. the current blockchain craze for traditional double-entry FIX markets looks ... amusing, at best.
20:07 -!- eragmus1 [~eragmus@c-73-150-48-166.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
20:07 < Guest58> why do you say that?
20:08 < bram__> Guest58 That isn't a simple question. A lot of it has to do with what's actually holding up transactions in capital markets. One clear benefit of having 'blockchains' which are lightly trusted ledgers which support smart transactions is that they could allow for trades across counterparties without coordinating through a single trusted third party.
20:08 -!- bram__ is now known as bramc
20:08 < katu> Guest58: triple entry accounting as such would be useful, sure. but there are difficulties carrying it out in terms of logistics.
20:08 -!- brg444 [46346d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.52.109.0] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20:09 < katu> Guest58: first, big capital markets are centralized for a reason and the biggest problem atm is how to make quote data a commitment to the price quoted.
20:09 < katu> Guest58: thats surprisingly completely unrelated to blockchain by the virtue of operation, yet it could be partially solved using hashcash style protocols.
20:10 < bramc> The slow settlement times of capital markets in general are mysterious to me. They seem to take several orders of magnitude longer than makes any sense at all.
20:10 < Guest58> Bramc: I believe the slow settlement times are more due to regulatory issues vs. technology
20:11 -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@216-15-125-203.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:11 < bramc> Does anybody know if there's a writeup of the coinswap protocol meant to be read by finance industry types?
20:11 < katu> bramc: depends at which level you're looking. but in terms of volume (dumps from nanex) its not something one could imagine easily as a byzantine process.
20:12 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:12 < coinoperated> correct,  red tape evolved incrementally to slow down activity and ensure it passed under many eyes to distribute trust through compliance process.
20:12 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:12 < coinoperated> it allows time for immune system to react before malicious activity can rip the guts out.  when it works, you never hear about it. when it doesn't,  you get lehman bros., etc.
20:13 < bramc> I know bank transfers have crazy delays in them. Just because you've cashed a check doesn't mean the money won't be retroactively taken out of your account any time in the next two months. Favorite trick of scammers everywhere.
20:15 < alpalp> bramc: I accidentally did that to myself and ended up getting a cashiers check, then a negative balance equal to my house down payment
20:17 < bramc> alpalp, Ouch. It's weird whenever you discuss things like cashier's checks at a bank they act like you're an idiot for not knowing the minutiae of how the different instruments work and how obviously nothing could ever be changed
20:17 -!- Burrito [~Burrito@unaffiliated/burrito] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20:18 < alpalp> bramc: wrote myself a check out of the wrong account, deposited it.  Balance increments.  Get cashiers check.  Next day, negative huge balance.  Write another check out of same wrong account, check bounces again, same negative balance.
20:18 < alpalp> eventually got it resolved, but what a terrible process
20:22 < gwillen> bramc: I mean, to some degree it's important to read about the instruments before dealing with them, since they have different security properties you may want to know about even if the bank doesn't care
20:22 < gwillen> for relevant example, the fact that cashier's checks can come back out of your account for something like 90 days after apparently having been successfully deposited...
20:23 < gwillen> (only in cases of forgery, I think, but nevertheless a common scam)
20:23 < AdrianG> bramc: i would imagine a lot of transfers of more complicated instruments would be due to make sure the title is transferred properly.
20:23 < AdrianG> and there aren't any liens, etc.
20:24 < AdrianG> or some other kind of encumbrance, or whatever the term is.
20:24 -!- pistdov [~pistdov@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/pistdov] has quit [Quit: fuhklahhhh]
20:24 < coinoperated> get this, one of my accounts is at the us Treasury's own in house credit union.  Deposited a cashier's check there *from the US Treasury*,  still had to wait 2 business days for it to be considered clear.
20:24 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-139-55-215-201.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20:25 < AdrianG> you work for US Treasury?
20:26 < coinoperated> no, but you don't have to if you meet certain guidelines and live in the district
20:26 < bramc> AdrianG, That doesn't explain why Western Union charges $20 to send *cash*, and doesn't do it instantaneously. That's one case where Bitcoin bizarrely looks better, although it says more about the finance system than it does about Bitcoin
20:26 -!- Guest58 [~textual@pool-96-246-185-190.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:27 < AdrianG> bramc: western union is not even finance industry, really.
20:27 < coinoperated> i also have a NASA credit union account for the same reason.  their branches just ahppen to be convenient for me to get to
20:27 < bramc> Or how you need the physical address of a bank to make a wire transfer to it, because apparently maintaining a national database mapping routing numbers to addresses would be a technical impossibility.
20:28 < AdrianG> bramc: physical address is there so that you can sue if anything.
20:28 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:28 < AdrianG> thats all it boils down in the end, legal process/system.
20:29 < bramc> But now I'm getting into the realm of off-topic ranting. The on topic point is that most if not all of the finance industry's inefficiencies are things which blockchain technology can't actually help with.
20:29 < AdrianG> you must have a physical address so that they can be served, if anything.
20:29 < coinoperated> the $5 lock security only costs $5 because it depends on the $500 door security, which depends on the $500,000 house security, which depends on the $50m local police department security etc.
20:29 < AdrianG> bramc: bitcoin doesn't help with any of the legal barriers, no.
20:29 < AdrianG> i dont think.
20:29 < coinoperated> its like a web of trust, sort of thing
20:30 < AdrianG> coinoperated: what are you making analogies with?
20:31 -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@216-15-125-203.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: GGuyZ]
20:31 -!- GoonClooney [uid44280@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kobvbqakdeipwbjo] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
20:32 < coinoperated> that the physical address of a given secured value is part of a larger framework of trust, and thus necessary for the address to be locateable in that framework for the security mechanism to do its job
20:33 < coinoperated> having an address is in a way, proof of work
20:33 < coinoperated> unique
20:34 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:35 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:37 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:37 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:38 < AdrianG> coinoperated: you can have a million corps in one PO box
20:38 < AdrianG> its not proof of work
20:41 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20:41 -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20:41 < bramc> Okay, I've now finished rejiggering my verification code for proofs of inclusion and proofs of exclusion. I added checks to make sure that the prefixes are right, but have not made it do a higher form of puking in those error cases, because these are free floating functions and I can't convince myself that that form of edge casing is worth it. The internal validation code of the actual data structure will do such puking.
20:41 < bramc> And with that, I'm off to drive home.
20:41 -!- bramc [~bram@38.99.42.130] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
20:42 -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:44 -!- jaydas [~textual@pool-96-246-185-190.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:49 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:50 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:57 -!- davec [~davec@cpe-24-243-251-52.hot.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:57 -!- davec [~davec@cpe-24-243-251-52.hot.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:00 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:00 -!- jaydas [~textual@pool-96-246-185-190.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
21:07 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:18 -!- eragmus [~eragmus@c-73-150-48-166.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
21:18 -!- tripleslash [~triplesla@unaffiliated/imsaguy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:23 -!- gocrazy [~gocrazey@104.156.228.133] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:29 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:34 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
21:36 -!- adam3us [~Adium@141.8.72.43] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
21:43 -!- smk [a801063b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.168.1.6.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
22:11 -!- licnep [uid4387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sgvrxnjdtzrmtnou] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
22:17 -!- adam3us [~Adium@37.75.40.28] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
22:19 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
22:26 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:27 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
22:36 -!- adam3us [~Adium@37.75.40.28] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
22:41 -!- kmels [~kmels@120.62.151.186.static.intelnet.net.gt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
22:41 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
22:42 -!- adam3us [~Adium@37.75.40.28] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:00 -!- RedEmerald [~RedEmeral@216.240.130.109] has quit [Changing host]
23:00 -!- RedEmerald [~RedEmeral@unaffiliated/redemerald] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:02 -!- tripleslash_x [~triplesla@unaffiliated/imsaguy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:05 -!- tripleslash [~triplesla@unaffiliated/imsaguy] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
23:08 -!- adam3us [~Adium@37.75.40.28] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
23:09 -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:11 -!- tripleslash_x is now known as tripleslash
23:36 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ksqlxqvtwfufxkbq] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:46 -!- matsjj [~matsjj@p5B209304.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:54 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:55 -!- pozitrono [~nu@39.f8.5177.ip4.static.sl-reverse.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:58 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
--- Log closed Thu Dec 24 00:00:45 2015