--- Log opened Fri Dec 25 00:00:46 2015
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03:55 < kanzure> "proof of merkle tree ordering work"
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04:05 < nsh> work done ordering a merkle tree?
04:05 < nsh> hmm
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18:23 < bramc> In general a source of delays will cause delays when you don't want them but not be reliable as a source of security when you want to rely on them for that.
18:25 < kanzure> "proof of merkle tree ordering work"
18:27 < kanzure> adam3us: btw, instead of just "you must have your private keys to own BTC", i suspect it may be advisable to upgrade this recommendation to "and you must run your own verification"
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19:10 < CubicEarth> Any thought on this idea? - https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3y6ush/can_we_take_a_second_to_thank_the_team_over_at/cybd6kw
19:23 < maaku> CubicEarth: you should look into the bitcoin relay network and IBLT
19:25 < CubicEarth> maaku: While both of those things are great, I thought there was concern that both of those systems penalize a miner who is mining very different tx's than everyone else.
19:27 < maaku> CubicEarth: as does your scheme, which is basically what the relay network and IBLT do
19:30 < CubicEarth> maaku: My scheme doesn't make use of pre-shared tx's
19:30 < silvaedium> I need bitcoin santa 1FmhLXEo3wWYUcL7NvSFr8RQbEq4eBoZQL
19:34 < CubicEarth> maaku: I though there was concern with block propagation times into and out of Chain
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20:05 < tulip> CubicEarth: it's not really clear how that is supposed to help.
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20:10 < CubicEarth> tulip: It's supposed to get blocks through the china firewall quickly
20:10 < tulip> you seem to be operating under the assumption that you can get more speed by fragmenting blocks and using multiple TCP streams? that's almost certainly not the case, and reassembling the 200,000 block pieces would take a significant amount of time.
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20:13 < CubicEarth> tulip: Yes, in a sense.  In my example I suggested 5-KB pieces, so there would 200 of them for a 1-MB block.  But even if there were 10,000, reassembly would be fast.  The fragments would be labeled with their order / position.
20:14 < tulip> sorry, for some reason I read that as 5K.
20:15 < CubicEarth> tulip: And why wouldn't multiple TCP streams be faster?
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20:15 < tulip> as much as I understand the connections are slow, more than latent.
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20:16 < CubicEarth> tulip: that would be fine, my scheme would handle that just fine.
20:17 < tulip> I'm still unsure how it's supposed to help.
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20:19 < CubicEarth> tulip: if you had ten computers in different cities in china, and ten computers each in a different countries outside of China, and made 1 to 1 (peer-to-peer) connections between computers on the inside and computers on the outside, the aggregate bandwidth would clearly be higher than if you just had connection
20:19 < CubicEarth> between one pair
20:19 < CubicEarth> right?
20:19 < CubicEarth> On average, it would be 10x higher
20:23 < tulip> CubicEarth: that description is more clear than your original one.
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20:26 < CubicEarth> tulip: Great!
20:28 < CubicEarth> tulip: So does it makes sense now? Can you see how it would help?
20:29 < tulip> CubicEarth: don't get caught in implementation details when describing a concept and people will have an easier time parsing them. an actual random ordering of 200 chunks will leave you waiting until near the end to get all of the ones you need to reassemble, which is almost certainly not what you want.
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20:32 < tulip> CubicEarth: remember that under non-attack conditions the relay network can push a lot of blocks in just a single TCP packet.
20:33 < CubicEarth> Point taken on the implementation details.
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20:39 < CubicEarth> tulip: Not that the random ordering would be the most efficient, but needing to wait until the end would be unlikely.  The more relay-pairs you had, the smaller chance a given fragment would be randomly assigned to the back of the list in each instance.
20:39 < CubicEarth> tulip: But it would be easy to do better - absolutely
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20:41 < CubicEarth> tulip: I know the relay network works well - this is just a different concept for how to push information quickly.  I assume there are certain attacks that would work on the relay network, but not on what I described.  Although the relay network should always be faster under standard idea conditions.
20:42 < CubicEarth> ideal*
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22:09 < phantomcircuit> tulip, you actually can get better throughput through the GFW via multiple tcp connections
22:10 < tulip> phantomcircuit: that's surprising, wonder what the justification for that is.
22:12 < phantomcircuit> tulip, afaict it's something to do with trying to keep http requests fast but not other things
22:12 < phantomcircuit> but the gfw is a patch work
22:12 < phantomcircuit> so things that work in one place wont work in another
22:13 < phantomcircuit> CubicEarth, i believe gmaxwell has a design for something in the same vein that is much more powerful than what CubicEarth seems to be describing using erasure encoding
22:14 < tulip> phantomcircuit: right. I based my assumption on some comments which seemed to suggest that internet connections themselves were slowed or interrupted on a per-user basis as punishment for misbehaviour. based on that any slowdown or latency was going to be global rather than per TCP connection.
22:14 < phantomcircuit> tulip, yeah it's definitely not strictly packet switching
22:15 < phantomcircuit> there's a bunch of crazy things going on which can have the effect of slowing individual tcp sessions
22:15 < phantomcircuit> it might have to do with delaying out of order packets until the packet before was received
22:18 < CubicEarth> phantomcircuit: I'm not sure how it can be much more optimized than transmission being linearly sped-up by the number of routes (assuming routes are all of equal bandwidth and latency)
22:19 < phantomcircuit> CubicEarth, i suggest magic
22:19 < phantomcircuit> (it can be but only with a radically different design that relies on trust)
22:20 < CubicEarth> phantomcircuit: lol
22:20 < phantomcircuit> (ie fails horribly if any peer is adversarial)
22:23 < CubicEarth> phantomcircuit: As tulip pointed out, the random ordering I proposed isn't optimal.  My army of nodes could all be numbered, and their transmission of the fragments could be coordinated by nothing more than their pre-assigned ID numbers.
22:25 < CubicEarth> tulip: phantomcircuit:  I could spend a little bit more time writing up this concept if you think it would help
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