--- Log opened Thu Dec 31 00:00:51 2015
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00:34 < bramc> 110 new lines is enough, I'm calling it a day.
00:40 < CubicEarth> Strong work bramc - that's 110 more lines than I wrote today.
00:42 < bramc> CubicEarth, It's a little misleading because I spent several months doing design work for what I'm coding now. When there's a clear spec I can crank through stuff super fast.
00:43 < CubicEarth> bramc: So your saying that's a lot?  I know for carful work it can be.
00:44 < bramc> CubicEarth, For core work it's a huge amount.
00:44 < CubicEarth> bramc: got it.
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03:41 < stevenroose_> anyone here? I have a remark on the paper on 2-way pegged sidechains
03:43 < fluffypony> there are logs, so comment away and someone will definitely read it
03:47 < stevenroose_> it says "While the hash value itself does not change the amount of work a block is counted as, the presence of lower-than-necessary hashes is in fact statistical evidence of more work done in the chain[Mil12]. "
03:48 < stevenroose_> right above that, it explains that the values are random probabilistic, so that even if only hashing towards a certain target, certain amounts of the time, the hash will be certain times lower than the target
03:49 < stevenroose_> however, since the target is included in the block hash and since publishing a valid hash asap is incentivized so hard, not a single miner will ever hash towards lower-than-necessary hashes
03:49 < stevenroose_> so, given the hash value on itself, it can be statistical evidence that more work is done than a higher hash
03:50 < stevenroose_> however given the known target value, everyone knows that the hash value only counts as the target value because it could have been any other value lower than the target
03:50 < stevenroose_> right?
03:51 < stevenroose_> the paper suggests exploiting these lower-then-necessary hashes by (if I understand it correctly, I need to read the source on that) giving them more weight as an SPV proof
03:52 < stevenroose_> I think that might actually be dangerous because a miner that "accidentally" finds an abnormally low hash for a certain block, has a lot more power than another miner mining for that block, even though they are looking for the same target hash
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03:54 < stevenroose_> fluffypony: are the logs public, btw? my bouncer often fails so I dont have logs for myself if I close my laptop..
03:54 < fluffypony> yes indeed, check the channel topic
03:54 < fluffypony> they're also on botbot.me
03:55 < stevenroose_> haha, ok, bitcoin.ninja is such an epic domain name :D
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07:01 < kanzure> i'm seeing a lot of confusion on the interwebs regarding "pow is all you need for security".... probably our terminology is somewhat to blame for this (other than plain old misunderstandings).
07:01 < kanzure> is there a good way to have a term that essentially means something like "pow gives us a way to (try to) have a healthy sybil-resistant market of competing unregulated alternatives"?
07:02 < kanzure> i would like the word or phrase to make it more obvious to others that "centralized mining with high-difficulty PoW" does not confer any security benefits.
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07:16 < ibrightly> well "centralized mining with high-difficulty PoW" does offer a security benefit. As long as cryptography is used in an effective manner and blocks are publicly verifiable then it's far superior to say traditional banking where consumers have no ability to verify transactions.
07:18 < instagibbs> PoW specifically though. For example, versus a Federated sidechain with one signer.
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07:22 < instagibbs> in extermis it's quite a similar threat model, with fewer benefits(speed, proof of double-minting) of pure block signing.
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07:29 < maaku> kanzure: we tried to make this distinction by coining DMMS
07:29 < maaku> you may just need to find a more memorable phrase for that concept
07:30 < maaku> ibrightly: why? they could still arbitrarily rewrite transactions
07:30 < maaku> (or force upgrades a la evil fork)
07:30 < ibrightly> They could, but not without all users knowing about it.
07:31 < ibrightly> Or perhaps forking themselves off of the accepted chain of transactions.
07:33 < kanzure> maaku: DMMS isn't sufficient though... i guess you could talk about membership requirements?
07:34 < ibrightly> Basically centralized PoW does still confer transparency although transactions are no longer censorship resistant.
07:34 < kanzure> what transparency? the nonce....?
07:34 < ibrightly> Empty blocks = obvious suppression of transactions.
07:35 < maaku> kanzure: security comes from censorship-resistance, censorship-resistance derived from dynamic membership
07:35 < ibrightly> Transactions included can't be invalid or else clients will reject or at least be aware of the 'lie' created by the centralized miner.
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07:38 < kanzure> i had a good argument about a month ago that censorship resistance is important but not sufficient, unfortunately i have forgotten the argument :|
07:38 < kanzure> DMMS membership requirements should only be PoW, and all the other requirements we should be attempting to minimize and limit within reason
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09:16 < Taek> I'm going to be in NYC tomorrow and Saturday if anyone wants to grab a beer
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09:41 < bsm1175321> Taek: hit me up.
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12:56 < veqtrus> Hi! Regarding the draft segwit bip, wouldn't it be less ugly to redefine a NOP to CHECKSEGWITVERIFY instead of redefining the meaning of a single data push?
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13:05 < adlai> veqtrus: NOPs are a scarce resource, single data pushes are ugly and this gives them meaning and purpose
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13:12 < veqtrus> adlai: aren't there any plans to introduce more nops as part of some hard fork? we have quite a lot of unused single byte values.
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13:16 < adlai> nah, there are enough NOPs, and too many hard fork wishlists.
13:16  * adlai invites all 'wizards' seriously interested in long-term Bitcoin survival to join him: https://www.facebook.com/groups/TenHundred/permalink/183541415333593/
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13:27  * adlai hopes all the excitement and support is due to wizards enjoying the new year; which indeed, they should :)
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14:23 < merlincorey> adlai: I'm a literal wizard and I am interested in the long term survival of bitcoin, but I'm not clear how going to Facebook is going to help anything, nor how it would hurt anything if I did not
14:24  * adlai links directly to https://github.com/adlai/TenHundredBitsOfMoney/blob/master/README.md
14:25 < merlincorey> I read it but I still don't get it
14:25 < merlincorey> what are you implementing / proposing to implement, and how will it save bitcoin, from what exactly?
14:28 < adlai> think of it as a way for probing existing communication channels for the channel operator's resistence to being the fallback in case bitcoin's gossip network suddenly stops working
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14:37 < adlai> specifically, this'd be (if anybody built it, which nobody will, because it's a subtle joke, like most else...) a replacement for the broadcast channel. 144MB/day, times the bloat factor, is a lot less than most 'social media' handles without batting an eyelid
14:38 < kanzure> adlai: you mean bitcoin transaction serialization into english-readable words?
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14:38 < adlai> s/transaction/block/ but yes
14:40 < merlincorey> so basically streaming the blockchain into tweets or something?
14:41 -!- gielbier [~giel____@unaffiliated/gielbier] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
14:42 < adlai> sure, or into any other social media... that's the less relevant part. the Purpose would be to probe a medium's readiness to functioning as a backup to bitcoin's block broadcast, should something happen to the existing system.
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14:45 < adam3us> i quite liked jgarzik's bitcoin sattelite idea.
14:46 < adlai> it's a good one, the atmosphere can't exactly censor anything... but it's a tad expensive, too
14:47  * adlai liked radio broadcast, esp. repurposing old frequencies licensed to dead/dying cable propaganda
14:47 < adlai> "cable" here used in the general sense of the ter
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15:06 < Guest2324> adam3us: ping
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15:15 < Guest2324> adam3us: you mentioned "a number of wallets and processors already voiced support or said they planned to do simultaneous release with segregated-witness". thats cool. which wallets and processors are planning to do that?
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15:20 < adam3us> Guest1234:greenAddress and hiveWallet said so publicly. others would have to speak for themselves. (there can be competitive advantage to being first in terms of poaching users and/or offering lower fees/faster clearing)
15:20 < paleh0rse> anyone from btci around?
15:21 < Guest2324> adam3us: what about the statement that "it is an intentionally decentralised development team" in reference to Bitcoin Core, by my count you employ 11-12 of them for some definition of employ
15:21 < Guest2324> curious what your metric for decentralization in development is there
15:23 < maaku> Guest2324: there is never a requirement that development is decentralized
15:23 < Guest2324> also thats cool re: greenaddress and hivewallet, i thought hive wallet development was abaonded
15:24 < paleh0rse> would be cool if it was, though. ;)
15:25 < Guest2324> maaku: adam3us said it was and intentionally so. curious how he came to that position given the circumstances.
15:25 < adam3us> Guest1234: which project are you working on if you dont mind me reciprocating the questioning
15:25 < Guest2324> im not working on anything
15:26 < paleh0rse> Guest2324: perhaps the mere possibility that anyone can fork is enough to meet Adam's definition of decentralized?  just guessing, not trying to speak for anyone
15:26  * maaku seriously wonders what the fuss over "decentralize the development" is. *what does that even mean*
15:27 < adam3us> Guest1234: are you working on promoting any forks of bitcoin? just curious of your motivations.
15:27 < adlai> how about "make it so a single asteroid is not likely to kill all the mindshare"
15:27 < paleh0rse> maaku: perhaps simply a system that allows some sort of voting by anyone/everyone for every commit. also perhaps unrealistic... but, not necessarily a future impossibility
15:27 < adlai> at least, the other guys will die of sunlight deprivation etc
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15:28 < maaku> paleh0rse: and that would be good, why? what would that achieve?
15:28 < Guest2324> adam3us: not actively promoting a particular fork. i find all the fear of a fork interesting though
15:29 < kanzure> it's not a fear, it's disinterest.
15:29 < adlai> maaku: my guess is that the fear stems from a misplaced beliefs that individual developers, or even a group of them, can change the core rules... it doesn't help that the other cartel mistakenly thought to have any power over the rules has openly said they want developers to play a stronger dictator game
15:29 < paleh0rse> maaku: im just describing what it could possibly mean, not putting forth ANY sort of opinion on it. what good would it be? in some minds, it would prevent/replace singular control over commits to Core itself.
15:29 < maaku> adlai: that makes sense
15:29  * adlai is not attacking anybody here, except maybe the pool operators.
15:29 < kanzure> voting cannot prevent singular control over commits, that's impossible
15:29 < Guest2324> the system was meant to be goverend solely by hashpower. thats why i find it very interesting when others claim that shouldn't be the case
15:30 < adlai> Guest2324: no, the system is not governed.
15:30 < kanzure> the system was not meant to be governed by hashpower, that's also impossible
15:30 < adlai> the system exists, either it works or it doesn't. hashpower serves to produce consensus over its state.
15:30 < paleh0rse> kanzure: u may be correct, but i always hate using the word "impossible"
15:30 < kanzure> paleh0rse: impossible using current tech
15:30 < Guest2324> "They vote with their CPU power, expressing their acceptance of
15:30 < Guest2324> valid blocks by working on extending them and rejecting invalid blocks by refusing to work on
15:30 < maaku> paleh0rse: core committers work by consensus, which in this case means any controversial commit would be reverted by one of the other committers
15:30 < Guest2324> them. Any needed rules and incentives can be enforced with this consensus mechanism."
15:31 < paleh0rse> kanzure: much more accurate ;)
15:31 < Guest2324> i only see one consensus mechanism cited
15:31 < maaku> someone with a better memory can drum up references of when this has actually happened, as it has on multiple occasions
15:31 < kanzure> maaku: i wouldn't say that core always works by consensus (e.g., ACKs from every conceivable person, is not the goal)
15:31  * adlai mumbles something about reverting p2sh and redoing it the right way
15:31 < adlai> it's ~only~ 10% of existing utxos...
15:31 < maaku> kanzure: rough consensus
15:32 < maaku> "you know it when you see it"
15:32 < paleh0rse> maaku: this i know. :)
15:32 < maaku> it's a merit based system, so it's a little obscure to outsiders...
15:32 < maaku> also this is way off-topic for -wizards
15:32 < adlai> Guest2324: so, consensus in that quote refers to consensus over state, within a set of rules. the rules don't change, because you wouldn't know who to trust about which changes are good or bad.
15:32 < kanzure> maaku: w/e, i don't know if it's useful to say the word consensus there. it confuses the topic because bitcoin ledger history consensus is another thing, and apparently the terminology is too confusing for everyone.
15:32 < adam3us> Guest1234: this is pretty interesting re how consensus works from IETF sources for bitcoin http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-October/011457.html
15:33 < maaku> kanzure: agree on the confusion, but "rough consensus" is the industry term and I don't know a better phrase...
15:33 < Guest2324> adlai: maybe i'm going blind in my old age but: "Any needed rules and incentives can be enforced with this consensus mechanism."
15:33 < paleh0rse> consensus... more consensus... coinbase... more Coinbase. lol, our lex has been confusing for years
15:33 < adlai> Guest2324: maybe satoshi went senile in quotation.
15:33 < kanzure> maaku: merit. if wladimir was ever to start doing releases with stuff that is poorly reasoned, all the other developers would just go do some other client or leave etc.
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15:33 < adlai> Guest2324: how about you voice your misconceptions in your own words, in #bitcoin
15:33 < maaku> kanzure: actually wladimir couldn't push a release.. that part is decentralized
15:33 < kanzure> agreed regarding off-topicness
15:33 < maaku> (gitian signatures)
15:34 < adam3us> Guest1234: it is a subtle point but actually it is the economically dependent full nodes that enforce consensus rules not miners; miners follow.
15:34 < kanzure> maaku: i wouldn't call that decentralized, but i agree wladimir can't push a release on his own like that, true
15:34 < adlai> kanzure: we seem to have reached broad consensus on off-topicness
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15:35 < paleh0rse> anyways, i just came to find out if anyone can explain an interesting anomoly in the btci My Wallet data today -- it's probably bad data, but if not... anyone want the link? i'll pm
15:35 < Guest2324> adam3us: he didn't menton economically dependent full nodes. he mentioned CPU power.
15:35 < Guest2324> mention
15:35 < adlai> paleh0rse: also for that, you're more likely to find people who care about that stuff in another channel.
15:35 < kanzure> he was wrong. it turns out it's not about CPU power at all.
15:35 < jcorgan> paleh0rse: #bitcoin please
15:35 < Guest2324> i doubt it was an oversight
15:35 < paleh0rse> adlai: if real, this would interest everyone in bitcoin
15:35 < maaku> Guest2324: satoshi was clueless about tons of shit
15:35 < kanzure> you can be wrong even without an oversight
15:35 < Guest2324> lol
15:35 < jcorgan> Guest2324: #bitcoin
15:36 < adlai> but "btci" aren't "in bitcoin", so it interests nobody in this channel.
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15:36 < adlai> plot twist: Guest2324 is satoshi, drunk on new year's, trolling the lemmings who slave while he waits.
15:36 < Guest2324> by my count the only one who's been right about anything has been satoshi
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15:36 < kanzure> wow we have ops now. cool.
15:37 < Guest2324> wouldn't want to get in the way of the FUD spreading. take care.
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15:37 -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [+b *!*ubuntu@*.compute-1.amazonaws.com] by jcorgan
15:37 -!- Guest1234 was kicked from #bitcoin-wizards by jcorgan [Guest1234]
15:37 -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [-b *!*ubuntu@*.compute-1.amazonaws.com] by jcorgan
15:39 -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [-o jcorgan] by jcorgan
15:39 < kanzure> i think you kicked the wrong guest?
15:39 < kanzure> ah there were two.
15:39 < jcorgan> yeah, misfire
15:40 < paleh0rse> lol n1
15:40 < adlai> picking up the thread about the "consensus" misconception, which I do think is half-on-topic here: much misunderstanding stems from people conflating consensus over system state, and consensus over the consensus system's rules;
15:41 < kanzure> luke-jr was mentioning earlier that he has had to remind people about this misconception, and that he has even caught himself making the same mistake (so have i)
15:41 < paleh0rse> most of reddit doesnt understand the distinction, but some do. would be too painful to explain it every time the uses are conflated
15:41 < kanzure> (i mean, i've caught myself, not caught him doing that)
15:41 < adlai> and much more noise, lately, stems from people conflating voluntary addition of new rules, which miners can and should do at developer suggestion, and voluntary elision of old rules, which nobody should ever do if they want to be certain they're using Bitcoin
15:41 < maaku> it's a meta-level mistake. the rules of the game are fixed; we achieve consensus over the results
15:42 < jcorgan> paleh0rse: r/bitcoin is the youtube comment section of bitcoin
15:42 < adlai> the real confusion begins when voluntary new rules become so routine that we start to think the involuntary permanent rules are all voluntary at some level
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15:42 < maaku> it's a one-way street. you can add a rule, but you can never* take one away
15:43 < maaku> (*turns out you always can take away rules, but in an unfriendly way)
15:43 < adlai> r/bitcoin has improved a little since the angry humans left to 'uncensored' subs, leaving just confused humans and 'men at work'
15:44 < paleh0rse> jcorgan to an extent, i agree. however, you wont find me patronizing anyone on reddit either.
15:44 < adlai> the unfriendliness is relative, and measurable; for example, removing the p2sh rule would be inconsiderate towards ~10% of bitcoin-ownerships, but it wouldn't "break bitcoin"
15:44  * adlai is not advocating this, just thinking out loud
15:44 < maaku> adlai: I meant something different, the hard-fork-as-a-soft-fork idea
15:45 < paleh0rse> jcorgan no need to put forth any air of superiority. the entire community plays a role in the success/failure, not just wizards
15:45 < maaku> paleh0rse: r/bitcoin is a tiny, not representative segment of the community though
15:46 < paleh0rse> maaku as someone who is working on private projects, im a nobody to you; but, it doesnt mean im a nobody. (this is an example)
15:47 < paleh0rse> ^^not making it personal, just pointing out that some on reddit, including myself, are more than just bored at work. we go there to educate, debate, etc... mainly because IRC is blocked at work for me, and i cant share my projects anyways. :(
15:47 < maaku> paleh0rse: what I mean is there are millions of people using bitcoin world-wide. there are maybe a few thousand active people on r/bitcoin. r/bitcoin's echochamber should not be mistaken for community voice
15:47  * adlai quotes r/BitcoinMarkets: "It's likely that /r/darknetmarkets[3] has already eclipsed /r/bitcoin[4] in economic significance" (source and data at https://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMarkets/comments/3yhanq/daily_discussion_monday_december_28_2015/cyeb7xx )
15:48 < paleh0rse> maaku oh, absolutely agree. i like all my info multi-source. :)
15:48 < adlai> r/BitcoinMarkets has dubious economic significance, but much better SNR than any of the general subs
15:48 < maaku> i appreciate the work you do on r/bitcoin, but I'm just saying we shouldn't take "reddit thinks X" as "the users have spoken in favor of X"
15:48 < paleh0rse> adlai: as ana ctive trader, i'd agree with that too
15:48 < paleh0rse> maaku: ACK again
15:49 < paleh0rse> i just dont completely dimiss it
15:49 < paleh0rse> reddit is reddit.
15:49 < paleh0rse> there are jewels there... hidden, but still there.
15:49  * adlai prefers "meatspace reddit" for educating redditors
15:50 < adlai> aka meatups, buying/selling small amounts from desperate impulse-traders, hacking outside the home, etc
15:50 < adlai> then you ask them a question or two, and another few...
15:50 < adlai> s/from/to/, ie, "offer it and they will come"
15:51  * adlai would like to discuss joinmarket with paleh0rse (the self-professed 'active trader'), if this is too OT we can take it to PM or #joinmarket
15:52 < paleh0rse> i havent used it
15:52 < adlai> you don't have to use it, it generates financial data far more accurate than anything Nic Cagey acts out
15:52 < paleh0rse> lol
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15:52 < paleh0rse> ok
15:52 < adlai> bitcoin has an interest rate! in hebrew the portmanteau is "ribitcoin"...
15:52 < adlai> ("ribit" = interest)
15:53 < paleh0rse> hmm, k
15:53 < jcorgan> ok guys, let's get -wizards back on topic
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15:54  * adlai returns to #joinmarket, hopes paleh0rse and/or other curious lurkers follow
15:54 < kanzure> yes this is off-topic again.
15:55 < adlai> topic-space is best defined by its edges
15:55 < paleh0rse> by the way, i meant bc.i earlier (ref the data anomoly), not btci... sorry, tired. anyone interested in link to data im talking about, send pm
15:56 < paleh0rse> im out for a bit.
15:56 < paleh0rse> HAPPY NEW YEAR
15:57 < paleh0rse> (it was ref a 1 million coin internal movement in their wallets today).
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16:08 < bsm1175321> So back on topic.  I just had a maybe interesting idea about sharding.
16:09 < kanzure> did you happen to read vitalik's sharding paper thingy?
16:09 < bsm1175321> kanzure: no... link?
16:09 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/sharding-the-blockchain/
16:09 < kanzure> https://github.com/vbuterin/scalability_paper/blob/master/scalability.pdf
16:10 < bsm1175321> Oh yeah that one.  I read it a while ago...I'll look again.
16:11 < bsm1175321> Imagine many mined coins, in a geographic region (defined by low ping time), where the miners are located in this geographic region. By virtue of the low ping time, the block time can be very fast, or equivalently, convergence/confirmation very fast. With atomic transfers (Lightning Network), one can create links between geographic regions that are essentially instantaneous.
16:12 < bsm1175321> It's a hub-and-spoke model where the hubs are mined coins and the spokes are LN.
16:12 < kanzure> i mentioned a small point about multi-chain atomic transfer stuff here http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-September/010909.html
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16:14 < kanzure> but yes, cut-through payment channel stuff might go through different chunks of totally unrelated state space, to get to the destination that you prefer, and presumably the intermediate route doesn't matter that much.
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16:16 < bsm1175321> I think this would be a much faster network, since one doesn't need global convergence.  Transaction time would be cut to local convergence time + ping time (LN).
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16:24 < bsm1175321> The other idea I'm toying with is trying to devise a ZKP that indicates a UTXO is unspent at a specific blockheight. (Where each node is only holding a fraction of the UTXO space and tx's are collaboratively verified before mining by passing ZKP's)
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16:40 < leviathaan> is it any worth investing in mining anymore?
16:41 < adlai> no, and you'll hear that in #bitcoin-mining too
16:43 < leviathaan> but if people will shut down their hardware due to difficulty then it will stop working
16:44 < leviathaan> is there a credible article by any chance that details what is going to happen to btc in the near future? (1-3 years)
16:44 < leviathaan> sorry for the noob question, i know you guys get this a lot
16:45 < adlai> noob questions are fine, the problem is relevance; this is not the right place for these questions
16:45 < adlai> you should try #bitcoin, #bitcoin-mining, or ##bitcoin (i'm not kidding!)
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16:46 < adlai> but to answer your question, my guess is that during the next 1-3 years, bitcoin will keep working, but probably reduce the block subsidy to 12.5
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16:53 < merlincorey> I read a little of the backlog and realize that you guys decided it was off topic, but Guest1234 may have been this guy on HN that was saying that 11/12 core bitcoin developers are de facto employees of blockstream and that the reason the block size limit is being kept down is to further blockstream's business plans
16:53 < merlincorey> where do I go to ask about that / get some kind of comment?
16:54 < merlincorey> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10819217 << part of his rant
16:56 < adlai> merlincorey: /dev/null
16:56 < adlai> or maybe #blockstream, but they'll probably ignore you because it's a nonissue
16:56 < merlincorey> adlai: that's at least more productive than engaging #bitcoin or /r/bitcoin in the matter
16:56 < merlincorey> so basically the answer is "nothing to see here"?
16:56 < adlai> "core bitcoin developers" is a funny concept. yes, they write the software most people run; no, it does not matter if they want to break bitcoin, because they literally can't.
16:57 < adam3us> judging by the username that'd be jtoomim :) in a more conspiracy theory moment
16:57 < adlai> they could try, and it would be suicide (professional, if not literal, depending how deranged btc hodlers get)
16:57 < merlincorey> adam3us: fair enough :)
16:57 < jcorgan> sigh
16:57 < adam3us> merlincorey: kind of OT for here but related reddit thread https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3yqe7c/segregated_witness_still_sounds_complicated_why/cyg2w0y
16:58 < merlincorey> thanks adam3us pointers to more was all I was hoping for
16:58 < merlincorey> there's a lot of noise and very little signal with a lot of bitcoin things
16:58 < merlincorey> as I am sure you are familiar
16:58 < jcorgan> this isn't helping
16:58 < adlai> adam3us: maybe a "What Blockstream could do to break Bitcoin" post on its blog could help show people that it actually can't
16:59 < merlincorey> jcorgan: it's helping me -- Guest1234 above and jtoomim's HN rant linked present a bit of a conspiracy theory with regards to bitcoin core developers... having some kind of response and related thread is helpful in at least confirming it in that light
16:59 < adam3us> adlai: there's a bunch of stuff scattered around reddit over the last year. sigh. people should write more FAQs, blog explainers, less getting stuck on reddit FAQ reanswering.
17:00 < merlincorey> i.e. it seemed pretty conspiracy theory to me and I am here for technical insight and understanding to the future of bitcoin and blockchain technology
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17:00 < adlai> merlincorey: are you familiar with game theory? Bitcoin's security derives more from that than plain old crypto
17:00 < merlincorey> but I;d be less interested in that if it was true there was an evil corporate cabal trying to drive things in their favor
17:00 < merlincorey> adlai: that I am
17:01 < merlincorey> anyway thanks again for the pointer and sorry for the added noise
17:01 < jcorgan> i give up
17:01  * merlincorey goes back to lurking
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17:01 < kanzure> merlincorey: i have already replied on that Hn thread. read the comments dude.
17:01 < merlincorey> kanzure: I am on the train heading home from work, I read 5 hours ago at lunch
17:01  * adlai wishes fewer people would give up in the face of noise and disinformation
17:01  * merlincorey apologizes for not reading every second of every minute 
17:01 < merlincorey> kanzure: but again thanks for the pointer :P
17:02  * merlincorey furiously reads on the train
17:02 < merlincorey> adlai: also agreed
17:02 < adlai> .later tell jcorgan next time please kick me, or whomever else is making the most noise. bitcoin needs dedication, not surrender...
17:02 < adlai> ;;later tell jcorgan next time please kick me, or whomever else is making the most noise. bitcoin needs dedication, not surrender...
17:02 < gribble> The operation succeeded.
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17:05 < merlincorey> kanzure: thank you for your response on HN, it is a mostly well reasoned counter point
17:10 < kanzure> there's more than one.
17:15 < merlincorey> I only saw that one - maybe will go back and read more
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17:34 < tulip> > < adlai> NOPs are a scarce resource
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17:35 < adlai> so are highlights. happy Year of the Difficulty Adjustment Period, tulip !
17:35 < tulip> the nice thing is that given one NOP, you can soft fork in more NOPs. it wasn't actually done this way, but this could have been used in the extension to Bitcoin script where the creator added NOP1-NOP10 for soft forks.
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17:36 < adlai> the general approach of "the existing rules never change, but anything is possible if you dance just right between the canyon walls" is highly underappreciated and underemphasized in CS101
17:36 < tulip> OP_NOP becomes OP_NOP_EXTENSION, which gives you 256 more NOP.
17:37 < adlai> but what if #42 is OP_NOP_MORE_EXTENSIONS?
17:37 < alpalp> tulip sounds like unicode
17:37 < alpalp> or multibyte text
17:37 < tulip> Bitcoin originally supported multi-byte opcodes so it's not that outlandish.
17:38 < adlai> really, bitcoin can do anything the miners allow, provided they don't break consensus.
17:38  * adlai is talking about the capital-c Consensus, about system rules, not state consensus... we need some new words!
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17:39 < jl2012> With segwit, we could escape from the original script system and the number of NOP it's not a problem at all
17:39 < tulip> I've often wondered how realistic it would be to actually remove Bitcoin script entirely.
17:40 < adlai> what'd you replace it with?
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17:41 < tulip> the number of scriptPubKey which aren't standard P2PKH / P2PK / encapsulated multisig is astonishingly low. if desired it could just be removed completely and the standard formats hardcoded in.
17:41 < adlai> well, you do want to leave some programmability, or else "programmable money" is no more than "decentralized pseudonimous cash"...
17:41 < tulip> you would then have segwit types and the complexity of Bitcoin script is gone.
17:42 < adlai> it seems that hardcode-coin would not support "BIP4x"
17:42 < adlai> so while it would "exist", you wouldn't be able to enter nor exit the system without invoking trust
17:42 < tulip> calling Bitcoin Script programmable money is pretty misleading, it's just a language which lets you play with signatures for the most part.
17:43 < adlai> it's programmable enough... most people wouldn't know a turing machine if it fell on their foot
17:44 < tulip> people think of "programmable money" as things like coin covenants, which Bitcoin is very much unable to do. it's just an astonishing complex way of defining signatures, multisig, and timelock restrictions.
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17:45 < adlai> cross-chain swaps involve more programming than most "hello world" examples
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17:47 < tulip> Bitcoin Script is still the wrong way to do most things.
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17:48  * adlai goes eat, but would love to see examples
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17:55 < tulip> adlai: with soft forks there's no real need for it to exist. if you have outputs with [sigtype] [sig] and your node doesn't understand how to valid [sigtype] you ignore it, if you do know how to validate it you do so. versioned transaction scripts were part of Bitcoin originally as well, but were the victim of poor implementation.
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18:05 < tulip> I basically posit that the amount of complexity doesn't justify its existence. in the spirit of versioned transaction elements here's a Bitcoin Script challenge (open to anybody in the channel). attempt to explain the marked behaviour, you should attempt to describe the difference between the definition of OP_VER and OP_VERIF. https://i.imgur.com/ia6D40y.png
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18:14 < tulip> bonus points, explain why OP_VER is disabled.
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18:18 < alpalp> OP_VER will just push the version on the stack, OP_VERIF will compare the verison to a value.
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18:21 < tulip> yes, so OP_VER could have forked the network every time it was used.
18:21 < alpalp> transaction is valid under one version, but not in another?
18:22 < tulip> yes. the value pushed to the stack is that of the client version validating the transaction.
18:22 < alpalp> but satoshi was all knowing and perfect and conceived without sin
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18:25 < tulip> you correctly described what the opcodes used to do, what they do today is interesting in its own right. you can use OP_VER in a non-transversed conditional branch with no ill-effect, but OP_VERIF will instantly kill the script regardless of if it is executed or not.
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18:57 < bramc> Bitcoin never really has 'rough consensus' more like 'clear majority of actual developers'
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19:15 < alpalp> rough consensus of those who actually understand what they are talking about?
19:17 < adlai> bramc: please don't strengthen the misconception that [un]clear majority of any group of talking heads means anything.
19:18 < bramc> adlai, Enhancements are getting accepted somehow
19:18 < tulip> (the answer for how OP_VERIF is handled in script execution https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/script/interpreter.cpp#L292 )
19:19 < adlai> bramc: there's a difference between one group of people convincing another group of people to stop producing one kind of valid data, and one tiny superminory if Bitcoin convincing the entirety of Bitcoin to start accepting batshit invalidity
19:20 < adlai> in the utterly useless "fork" terminology: the former is "soft", the latter, hard.
19:22 < tulip> what do you find wrong with the terminology?
19:22 < bramc> adlai, Even for soft forks, there rarely is 'rough consensus', too many contrarians who argue against everything.
19:23 < adlai> tulip: too similar to "software fork", and too unrelated to what they really are, which is a narrowing or expansion of consensus space
19:25 < tulip> adlai: make a new term and get it into common usage then.
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19:31 < kanzure> in a hard-fork scenario, if there is hashrate that was scheduled by a miner to come online just after the hard-fork, it seems like this makes a hard-fork decision somewhat more risky for colluding miners because they wont know whether the new hashrate is going to mine the previous rules. right?
19:33 < tulip> it seems unlikely anybody would seriously attempt that.
19:35 < tulip> the amount of chaos involved with working out what services are running what software version unfathomably huge.
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19:35 < alpalp> or rent hashpower to trigger a hard fork, then rent it back to orphan
19:38 < tulip> the nethash is pretty irrelevant for a hard fork (sorry adlai).
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21:00 < bramc> And now I've finished the is_included() functions. All that's left are add() and remove(), and those are only two functions, right?
21:02 < kanzure> maybe copy petertodd's interface from https://github.com/petertodd/python-merbinnertree/blob/master/merbinnertree/__init__.py
21:02 < kanzure> although his "classes within functions" is somewhat non-pythonic
21:03 < kanzure> oops i was thinking of https://github.com/proofchains/python-proofmarshal/blob/master/proofmarshal/mmr.py
21:04 < kanzure> which also does the same thing anyway -_-
21:04 < bramc> Doing is_included() first was a good idea, it made me realize that both add() and remove() on balanced blocks (branch blocks) should jump to the end and then work their way backwards to avoid memory lookups
21:05 < bramc> kanzure, I'm fairly confident that I have a good API
21:06  * kanzure returns to looking at page 6 figure 4 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/cognitiveconsilience/Cognitive%20consilience:%20Primate%20non-primary%20neuroanatomical%20circuits%20underlying%20cognition%20-%202011.pdf
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21:16 < bramc> That can result in less performance in a set which used to be much larger and has now shrunk, but I think I'll punt on it. The 'right' way to fix it is to add a heuristic for changing branch blocks to leaf blocks when they have a small enough amount of stuff in them but that, uh, has some issues.
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--- Log closed Fri Jan 01 00:00:52 2016