--- Log opened Mon Jan 04 00:00:55 2016
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05:18 < stevenroose_> is there a channel for the elements project specifically?
05:18 < stevenroose_> There seems to be a problem with the alpha sidechain
05:19 < kang_> What kind of problem?
05:19 < stevenroose_> The alpha explorer doesnt work and the last block the alpha faucet shows in the "last 10 blocks" it 7 days old according to my client
05:19 < stevenroose_> the client halts at block 109762 and it says that it is 7 days old
05:19 < stevenroose_> while the faucet says that block is the latest one
05:19 < stevenroose_> im restarting the client
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05:27 < stevenroose_> kang_: so?
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05:46 < stevenroose_> aha #sidechains-dev
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12:18 < Taek> I was thinking about subchains some more, and I decided that the idea of subchains has really missed the point for why weak blocks are advantageous
12:18 < Taek> weak blocks allow for DOS-protected, and anonymous preconsensus
12:20 < Taek> hand-waving and spherical cowing a bit, weak blocks give everyone a way to form a global mempool to draw from
12:21 < Taek> a weak block is a way to add transactions to a canonical mempool, and then if you have some explicit ordering for choosing transactions from the mempool everybody knows exactly what the next block is going to look like
12:21 < Taek> meaning the block can propagate as a single packet
12:22 < bsm117532> Taek: can you provide a ref for "subchains", I seemed to have missed that discussion.
12:22 < Taek> http://www.scribd.com/doc/293708577/Reduce-Orphaning-Risk-and-Improve-Zero-Confirmation-Security-With-Subchains#scribd
12:22 < Taek> it's by Peter Rizun
12:23 < Taek> I don't think that a weak block orphan rate is important at all, there's no reason that weak blocks need to build on eachother or even be a chain - they could just as easily be a dag
12:24 < bsm117532> Yeah I was just gonna say my braid proposal is quite similar.
12:24 < Taek> yeah. I think it makes a lot more sense to braid weak blocks than it does to braid strong blocks
12:25 < Taek> you'd use weak blocks to declare the set of transactions which may be legal in the next block, and then the next block has a limited set of options. If there are few enough weak blocks, it'd probably be easy enough just to brute force all of the potential options
12:25 < bsm117532> By virtue of their higher difficulty, having strong blocks be *actual* siblings is a lot more rare.  But as you lower the difficulty and increase the rate, you get more siblings and have to deal with it.
12:26 < Taek> Siblings don't matter because the conflicts can be handled by choosing the one with the higher fee, or if the fee is tied then you choose the lower hash, etc.
12:26 < Taek> you can RBF in the weak blocks, but you can't in the strong blocks
12:26 < bsm117532> In my definition siblings have no conflicts.
12:26 < bsm117532> If there are conflicts you go with higher work as usual.
12:28 < bsm117532> How are subchains different from p2pool?
12:28 < Taek> I think you could have soft-consensus rules to enforce weak blocks as well. Something like, a block won't be mined on by a miner if the weak blocks it draws from aren't visible to the miner, or don't have X weak confirmations (where weak blocks are allowed to confirm multiple other weak blocks, creating a dag/braid/whatever)
12:28 < Taek> I don't think subchains are super different from p2pool actually.
12:29 < bsm117532> It looks identical so far, but I've only been reading it for 5 minutes...
12:30 < Taek> at the bottom they mention iterated subchains (subchains within subchains), which resulted in a confusing thought for me - at what point is it bad for miners?
12:31 < Taek> and the answer seemed to be that high orphan rates would be happening in subchains in a damaging way. But I realized you don't have to care! if you allow weak blocks to confirm multiple other weak blocks, including weak blocks with conflicts, there are no consensus risks because it's only the strong blocks that need to have transactions that don't conflict
12:31 < bsm117532> Taek: I think that's the way p2pool works.  The sharechain is really there just to measure relative hash power.
12:31 < Taek> which means you'd want to keep the weak-block throughput low enough that everyone could keep up overall, but you no longer need to care about the orphan rate
12:32 < bsm117532> p2pool's orphan rate only affects its measurement of hash rate, so you get a slightly worse measurement than if orphans didn't exist.
12:33 < bsm117532> As far as I understand...still haven't set up my p2pool node yet ;-)
12:35 < bsm117532> I had a thought about this the other day too: As miners become smaller, the variance hits them harder (you effectively get a worse measurement of their hash rate because they submit shares less often). So why not let them pick their own target and submit e.g. 10 hashes below a target of their choosing.
12:36 < bsm117532> e.g. it's possible to create constant variance (relative to profit) for all miners.
12:40 < Taek> because if the miners are small enough it really bloats the chain
12:40 < Taek> in p2pool you get blocks with hudreds or thousands of payouts
12:40 -!- jcorgan|away is now known as jcorgan
12:40 < Taek> if all miners were mining at optimal variance, you might have 25% of the block just be miner payouts
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12:43 < bsm117532> True but the smallest miners (those with just one share) have a payout but a lot of variance as to that payout frequency.  You can in principle measure their hashrate better on the sharechain/braid/subchain but make their payouts less frequent.
12:44 < bsm117532> The threshold becomes a minimum-payout-value while not punishing small miners with extra variance.
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12:48 < kanzure> 12:28 < Taek> I don't think subchains are super different from p2pool actually.
12:48 < kanzure> this is why everyone keeps mentioning p2pool sharechain here
12:48 < kanzure> s/here/in this context
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13:50 < AdrianG> p2pool share chain?
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13:51 < AdrianG> interesting.
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14:08 < AdrianG> can p2pool ever be made competitive with centralized pools?
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14:10 < bsm117532> From what I can see, it's way more competitive, but there are a bunch of weird misunderstandings that are driving people away.
14:10 < bsm117532> (one being the variance I discuss above)
14:11 < AdrianG> how is it way more competitive?
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14:13 < bsm117532> Reduced orphan risk
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14:13 < bsm117532> (Sec 6 of Peter's paper)
14:14 < bsm117532> A while back gmaxwell mentioned that the "luck" of p2pool was 117% or something.
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14:15 < AdrianG> so why isnt everyone mining on p2pool then? are they all just dumb morons? i find that hard to believe.
14:15 < bsm117532> AdrianG: I've been trying to figure this out.
14:16 < bsm117532> AdrianG: I think it's a combination of (1) variance and (2) misconfigured cgminer.
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14:16 < AdrianG> variance is a big problem.
14:17 < pigeons> its not a big problem
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14:17 < bsm117532> Every time I ask this question I get a different answer... ;-)
14:17 < AdrianG> ok, it could be a big risk. if there is large variance - your equipment can easily underperform before it becomes outdated.
14:17 < AdrianG> thats a big cost to swallow.
14:18 < kanzure> i think you mean "difficulty gets adjusted, yo"
14:18 < AdrianG> why risk when you don't have to?
14:18 < kanzure> that's not variance
14:18 < AdrianG> kanzure: you could have a long bad streak with high variance
14:18 < kanzure> that's irrelevant. your concern is actually about difficulty adjustments in the upward direction.
14:19 < AdrianG> its both.
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14:19 < AdrianG> long streaks are bad in either environment, but are particularly damaging with rising difficulty.
14:19 < kanzure> nope.... "your equipment can easily underperform before it becomes outdated" is impossible (and variance explains why), unless you are talking about technical reasons like device failure or poor programming or poor hardware implementation details.
14:20 < AdrianG> if there is even just a perception p2pool *could* have higher variance - nobody would even bother.
14:20 < TD-Linux> AdrianG, you also need to run a full node for p2pool
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14:20 < bsm117532> The second moment befuddles everyone. I think the variance comes down to perceptions.  No one likes to see streaks without profit, for any reason.
14:20 < AdrianG> TD-Linux: thats not big of a downside
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14:20 < AdrianG> bsm117532: because high variance and rising difficulty can bankrupt you quickly.
14:20 < TD-Linux> AdrianG, right, but still slightly harder than just pulling an antminer out of the box and pointing it at a pool
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14:20 < kanzure> AdrianG: if you are not going to make reasoned statements in here, just leave....
14:21 < AdrianG> humans are very loss-averse.
14:21 < kanzure> "long streaks are bad" has only as much to do with loss aversion as it does with payday seeking (streaks can be both positive and negative value)
14:22 < kanzure> i really don't like cleaning up your messes. why do you make so many?
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14:22  * bsm117532 backs away slowly...
14:22 < AdrianG> kanzure: are you telling me higher variance is not higher risk?
14:23 < kanzure> bsm117532: nah there's prior history. i've known adriang since 2012. he's been like this since foreve.r
14:23 < AdrianG> kazure has been once subject of my trolling for a long time. I cant even recall what I told him anymore.
14:23 < bsm117532> The variance problem is psychological, not actual.
14:23 < AdrianG> seems to hold grudges
14:24  * AdrianG shrugs
14:24 < AdrianG> bsm117532: it is. its behavioral economics.
14:24 < AdrianG> thats how humans are wired.
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14:24 < TD-Linux> an "antminer p2pool upgrade kit" might be an interesting product
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14:24 < kanzure> hating you for current mistakes is not a grudge, look up the definition dude
14:24 < bsm117532> smaller miners have to wait a longer time to hit "expected profit" compared to larger miners.
14:25 < AdrianG> kanzure: seriously, do you deny that high variance is difficult to deal with, at least psychologically?
14:25 < bsm117532> TD-Linux: It seems to be just passing the right flag to cgminer and Antminers perform fine with p2pool (--submit-stale)
14:25 < kanzure> i am saying that you are wrong that "your equipment can easily underperform before it becomes outdated.". you can at most talk about high and low likelihood streaks.
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14:26 < kanzure> and that, on average, the streaks are both positive and negative, perhaps even neutral (until you factor in difficulty adjustments)
14:26 < TD-Linux> bsm117532, yeah. I guess the "upgrade kit" would just be a rpi2 node with p2pool daemon preinstalled...
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14:26 < AdrianG> kanzure: they are neutral on paper only.
14:26 < bsm117532> TD-Linux: Yes, configuring a full node is also a hurdle.  Anyway, I've not yet found any technical flaws in p2pool, though people are blaming it left and right for being worse than centralized pools.
14:27 < Taek> I know that at least at some points in history miners have been highly averse to variance, even when the payouts smooth out to +/- 1% over the course of 30 days. I don't know if modern miners are equally averse
14:27 < kanzure> AdrianG: absent difficulty adjustments? no.
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14:27 < kanzure> the only way you could claim that is if you also claim that you don't understand mining
14:27 < AdrianG> kanzure: capital has a cost. you cannot just sit and wait for months to average out.
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14:28 < AdrianG> if you could not wait, and bring down variance - everyone would do it immediately.
14:28 < kanzure> that's largely because optimal case is not how you purchase mining equipment or do projections
14:28 < kanzure> and you shouldn't, either.
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14:29 < TD-Linux> does p2pool work with pruning?
14:29 < kanzure> what type of pruning
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14:30 < TD-Linux> bitcoind -prune
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14:30 < pigeons> you are welcome in #p2pool
14:31 < kanzure> oops i forgot about #p2pool since november 2014 :-/
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15:13 < smooth> i think the concern about variance and difficulty adjustment is mostly loss aversion
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15:13 < smooth> people do not want to run a a net loss of the useful lifetime of the equipment, which is determined largely by difficulty adjustments
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15:14 < smooth> and as for p2pool, a big part of the non-appeal is bandwidth usage
15:15 < smooth> you can stratum mine with next to no bandwidth, you can't p2pool+node
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15:15 < bsm117532> Miners, fundamentally, are transaction validators.  This notion that you can mine from siberia with zero bandwidth and high latency is really stupid and dangerous to the ecosystem.
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15:16 < smooth> bsm117532: i was mostly referring to small scale miners, not the guys in siberia
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15:16 < smooth> but really, even the guys in siberia are doing what the incentives allow
15:16 < bsm117532> smooth: I agree with the draw you cite though.  We need to remove that perverse incentive, and have more validating nodes.
15:17 < smooth> to be clear im not arguing in favor of any of these things, im being descriptive of the motivations for the purpose of understanding how to make the situation better
15:17 < bsm117532> Understood and agreed.
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15:18 < smooth> loss aversion is somewhat mitigated by large(r) scale miners in fact, because they are likely to be more financially rational
15:18 < smooth> as opposed to someone buying an antminer
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16:28 < AdrianG> bsm117532: how can that perverse incentive be removed?
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21:21 < aj> rusty: did you just want to fwd them or post them publically? fwd'ing is fine, probably better for them to be reproducible before publishing though
21:21 < aj> rusty: (oops, wrong channel)
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--- Log closed Tue Jan 05 00:00:56 2016