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04:50 < Vexual> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBAzlNJonO8
04:53 < Vexual> ;SEEN GAUGE
04:54 < Vexual> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrULrWRlGBA
04:59 < Vexual> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JipHEz53sU
05:01 < Vexual> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JipHEz53sU
05:01 < Vexual> http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0b0_1450590311
05:02 < nsh> alternatively, you could not do that
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05:13 < Vexual>  pardon?
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08:19 < bsm117532> AdrianG: (re: perverse incentive that bandwidth and other resource usage incentivizes people to run non-validating nodes)
08:20 < bsm117532> AdrianG: I think the answer is to disallow this in core somehow. amiller has one idea: https://cs.umd.edu/~amiller/nonoutsourceable.pdf
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08:21 < satoshin> Satoshi here
08:24 < bsm117532> AdrianG: Another idea I'm toying with is removing the p2p layer and requiring all submitted transactions to be already mined (e.g. a tx-only, no-block type cryptocurrency). This doesn't remove that perverse incentive, but helps decentralize mining and creates more mining full nodes.
08:26 < satoshin> ALL: 320byte signatures are compact enough to be used in bitcoin, aren't they?
08:27  * bsm117532 thinks satoshin should change his nick. That's just annoying. Also -> #bitcoin
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09:27 < kanzure> verifast program verifier http://people.cs.kuleuven.be/~bart.jacobs/verifast/
09:28 < kanzure> "Verifying protocol implementations by augmenting existing cryptographic libraries with specifications" http://people.cs.kuleuven.be/~bart.jacobs/sefm2015.pdf
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12:16 < bsm117532> Picture of a Braid: https://twitter.com/BobMcElrath/status/684468392313663488
12:21 < kanzure> .tw 684468392313663488
12:21 < yoleaux> The future of blockchain is Braids. https://t.co/kMXZgfgLN9 (@BobMcElrath)
12:21 < kanzure> .title https://t.co/kMXZgfgLN9
12:21 < yoleaux> Bob McElrath auf Twitter: "The future of blockchain is Braids. https://t.co/kMXZgfgLN9"
12:21 < kanzure> so much indirection
12:21 < bsm117532> I just wanted to share a picture...
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12:34 < bsm117532> You can see from this picture the existence of graph cuts, which are blocks/beads that, if removed, separate the braid into two pieces.  Ideally one would place coinbase transactions and checkpoints at graph cuts.  This leads naturally to a metric: "average time between graph cuts" which is analogous to the "block time".
12:35 < bsm117532> As the difficulty goes down, the "width" of the braid goes up (more simultaneous blocks generated) and the probability of a graph cut goes down.
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12:54 < nsh> bsm117532, @bobmcelrath is yourself?
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12:56 < MRL-Relay> [othe] but who sets the checkpoints?
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13:07 < bsm117532> Yes
13:08 < bsm117532> othe: I'm just saying that if you wanted to checkpoint, that would be a logical place to do it.  I've nothing to say about who should do it.
13:08 < MRL-Relay> [othe] ahh i see, it sounded like it´s some necessary thing to checkpoint there
13:09 < bsm117532> I was thinking of posting a low-difficulty and high-difficulty braid, but ipython is making transparent background images and they're not visible on imgur with their black backgrounds.  :-(
13:09 < bsm117532> othe: Checkpoints are not necessary for operation of a Braid, any more than they are for a Blockchain...
13:10 < bsm117532> But may be desirable for reasons...
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13:16 < MRL-Relay> [othe] yes i get that, there are several reasons why it totally makes sense to use checkpoints in code i.e. faster intial syncing; i just had the impression they are a design neccesity - there is/was some cryptocurrency which "autocheckpoints" every xxxx blocks and that is just wrong
13:18 < bsm117532> othe: No I'm staying as close to bitcoin "in spirit" as possible.  So no PoS silliness or major changes in security assumptions.  Just allowing a block to have multiple parents leads down an interesting rabbit hole without opening another can of worms.
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14:59 < petertodd> bsm117532: fwiw, I think carnivorous rabbits would be relevant to your analogy
15:00 < bsm117532> petertodd: I have some literature for you! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunnicula
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15:01 < petertodd> bsm117532: haha, I've seen that I think!
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15:06 < bsm117532> BTW petertodd I'm kind of loth to review from Scaling Bitcoin about hard vs. soft vs. semisoft vs. squishy vs. generalized soft (forks).  The signal/noise on this topic has been abysmal.  There's no code or papers or analyses.  Almost the same can be said of block sizes...
15:07 < petertodd> bsm117532: can't blame you...
15:08 < petertodd> bsm117532: I still need to do up my threat model stuff, but I've been busy with/finding paying work
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15:22 < AdrianG> bsm117532: i looked at the pdf you posted.
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15:31 < adam3us> Taek: re weak blocks & pre-consensus it is still informational and penalty free to submit a block with no tx's overlapping with pre-consensus/mempool. what people have been saying about working in a cooperative or non-adversarial setting only
15:32 < AdrianG> bsm117532: i think any such proposal will face fierce opposition.
15:34 < bsm117532> AdrianG: Which proposal, not outsourcing mining (or decentralizing it another way)?  Core devs and virtually everyone in the ecosystem would love it, I think, as long as it doesn't break everything.
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15:45 < MRL-Relay> [othe] the most non-outsourceable mining stuff i saw you can easily cheat with paying a collateral to a pool, so no one steals blocks because he has more to lose than what he gains, imho if u want to keep mining non-outsourceable you have to do stuff like using the last XXXXXX blocks of the blockchain as a scratchpad like BBR does
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15:46 < AdrianG> bsm117532: miners would love it?
15:47 < bsm117532> Miners would love the ecosystem to grow.  And for the ecosystem to grow mining needs to decentralize.
15:47 < bsm117532> Miners don't want to make these kinds of decisions, but care must be taken that their business models continue to work for the forseeable future.
15:48 < AdrianG> bsm117532: is anyone working on this?
15:48 < AdrianG> non-outsourcable puzzles?
15:48 < AdrianG> and getting miners onboard?
15:48 < bsm117532> The paper has amiller as an author, he's in this channel.  I'm not aware of anyone actively working on it, but he would know better.
15:48 < MRL-Relay> [othe] i think what miners love are pools they can just connect to without all the hassle
15:50 < amiller> othe: that criticism applies to what i call "weak nonoutsourceable puzzles", "strong nonoutsourceable puzzles" prevent that using zero knowledge proofs
15:50  * adlai has been told, by miners, that what they would love is a c++ p2pool in bitcoin core, along with developer rubber-stamping of Freedom From Attacks
15:50 < MRL-Relay> [othe] well u could just make p2pool like system mandatory...
15:50 < AdrianG> good luck getting everyone to switch to that.
15:51 < amiller> i'm a) hoping an altcoin tries this out first not bitcoin, b) i'm interested in how to combine nonoutsourceable with other desirable properties, like maybe the new memory hard "generalized birhtday paradox" puzzle can be made nonoutsourceable too
15:51 < bsm117532> adlai: That's very interesting...I've been thinking a lot about putting braids into bitcoin core as a kind of pool, very similar to p2pool.
15:51 < MRL-Relay> [othe] amiller, to mine bbr u need the blockchain as its used as a scratchpad
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15:51 < MRL-Relay> [othe] and theres also spraedcoin which has a what u call weak outsourceable puzzle, both is hated by miners
15:52 < amiller> othe: that's cool about bbr
15:52 < MRL-Relay> [othe] we thought about p2pool mandatory in monero tho, that sounds like sth to try out
15:52 < amiller> othe: what do you mean by miners hate it
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15:53 < amiller> for the economics of nonoutsourceable puzzles to work out, i think you also need a drastically different reward structure
15:53 < MRL-Relay> [othe] miners are a lazy bunch of people who usually dont want to run some kind of fullnode for mining :) or whatever they need for non outsourceable stuff
15:53 < amiller> that favors really large jackpots rather than steady trickle of (supposed) income
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15:53 < MRL-Relay> [othe] yeah i think so too, winning a btc clock is not worth it economically
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15:54 < amiller> okay so miners are as thrilled about nonoutsourceable puzzles as large entrenched financial institutions are thrilled about bitcoin :)
15:54 < adlai> othe, the advantage of bundling a perceived-efficient p2pool in reference software is that pool operators have fewer excuses not to at least provide an opt-in endpoint
15:54 < amiller> othe: do you know if it's working? are people solomining spreadcoin rather than joining pools or not?
15:55 < MRL-Relay> [othe] totally agree with that adlai
15:55 < MRL-Relay> [othe] amiller, after 2 weeks they have build a collateral pool system on top of spreadcoin
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15:55 < amiller> othe: details?
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15:55 < MRL-Relay> [othe] which 1 pool only, so 100% of the mining power was on 1 pool
15:55 < smooth> amiller: im not sure the whole cloud mining worry is important
15:55 < MRL-Relay> [othe] well u pay amount XXX which is worth more than what u can steal
15:55 < bsm117532> I think some miners would object at first, but as long as their business models are not made obsolete, the argument is convincing in getting them to invest in nodes.
15:56 < MRL-Relay> [othe] wasnt there antminer or sth like that who announced a new p2pool software months ago? or bitmain or so...cant remember
15:56 < AdrianG> amiller: why memory hard puzzles?
15:57 < amiller> AdrianG, uh, just the usual reasons... but why not have both properties?
15:57 < AdrianG> amiller: im not sure what the motivation is
15:57 < smooth> amiller: as i understand spreadcoin, people use a pool that is mostly trust based
15:57 < smooth> closed source mining code or something along those lines
15:57 < MRL-Relay> [othe] for p2pool to work out in xmr i guess we would need something like cuckoo as the current  pow is kinda easy to ddos
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15:58 < smooth> its kind of pretend centralization that would probalby fall apart if it were actually worth something
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16:01 < amiller> i don't know how to find news about spreadcoin
16:01 < amiller> is it just that one bitcointalk thread?
16:01 < smooth> amiller: forget it
16:01 < amiller> no way, i'm interested
16:01 < smooth> you're talking about a complete mess of ignorant people and scammers im afraid
16:02 < amiller> lol
16:02 < smooth> signal-to-noise will be off the charts
16:02 < AdrianG> amiller: how's current reward not a large jackpot vs trickling stream?
16:03 < AdrianG> coinbase rewards are huge compared to what a single mining unit produces.
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16:04 < MRL-Relay> [othe] sure but compare it to a lottery ticket, which would be life changing
16:04 < amiller> i want to see a chance of winning tens of millions of dollars with a lucky reward
16:04 < MRL-Relay> [othe] agree
16:04 < amiller> (which i imagine exceeds spreadcoin's market cap)
16:04 < smooth> just wait for btc price to go up :)
16:04 < bsm117532> AdrianG: Mining decentralization requires smaller, more frequent payouts, as well as a reduction/removal of the variance of those payouts for small miners.
16:05 < amiller> anyway i'm interested in following whatever happens to altcoins that try out various forms of nonoutsourceable puzzles)
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16:05 < smooth> spreadcoin market cap is $169K
16:05 < amiller> bsm117532, so, variance is just one value.... what i'm interested in is a payoff distribution that has low-variance consolation prizes in addition to high-variance jackpots
16:05 < AdrianG> thats a joke
16:05 < MRL-Relay> [othe] http://spreadcoin.info/downloads/SpreadCoin-WhitePaper.pdf (open at your own risk, but the non-outsourceable puzzle is descrbied there)
16:05 < AdrianG> (170k cap is a joke)
16:06 < smooth> AdrianG: correct, that is why you cant use these coins as examples of anythig, other than perhaps looking at the code itself
16:06 < bsm117532> amiller: Why would you want that?  It flies in the face of using economically rational, profit-maximization as the mechanism for consensus.
16:06 < smooth> from a point of view of incentives/economics/etc. they're just not meaningful
16:06 < MRL-Relay> [othe] of course it is, but having a small market cap doesn´t automatically mean the tech is bad (in this case it is tho..)
16:06 < smooth> othe: yes thats why i said possibly looking at the code is useful
16:07 < bsm117532> amiller: those large jackpots will become the profit motive of large pools, and encourage centralization.
16:07 < AdrianG> bsm117532: how can you possibly discourage centralization in mining with incentive?
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16:08 < AdrianG> i dont know if this is possible in theory. it can be forced on miners, but i cannot see what could possible be a profit incentive.
16:08 < smooth> bsm117532: his suggestion is to make the reward large, and possible to secretly steal
16:08 < MRL-Relay> [othe] i don´t think so as large pools can lose a lot compared to the usual gamblers who bet only a bit
16:08 < smooth> so no one would trust a pool
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16:08 < AdrianG> oic smooth
16:08 < AdrianG> you can win large, or you can steal small?
16:08 < smooth> but i dont really buy it, because pools can undergo certification, licensure, etc. which is centralization in another form
16:08 < AdrianG> so its better to win yourself, than for the pool to steal
16:09 < AdrianG> ?
16:09 < bsm117532> AdrianG: Require every transaction to be mined before relaying.  (no free relaying of transactions)
16:09 < AdrianG> smooth: good point about auditing pools.
16:09 < smooth> AdrianG: if you cant trust a pool then your choice is play the lottery yourself or dont play
16:09 < AdrianG> bsm117532: isnt that too radical of a change?
16:09 < bsm117532> AdrianG: Probably, yes.
16:09 < AdrianG> smooth: can pools be made fundamentally unauditable?
16:10 < AdrianG> so that nobody can ever audit them in real-time, even?
16:10 < bsm117532> AdrianG: but there are a couple of proposals which reduce the number of tx's in a block (mine: braids, and bitcoin-ng) and accomplish the same thing.
16:10 < AdrianG> designed to defaud TM
16:11 < AdrianG> that would be a very high bar.
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16:13  * adlai realizes this may be off-topic, but does anybody here think monetized altcoins are a morally valid mechanism of live-testing experimental ideas?
16:13 < smooth> Anyway i dont really get all of this. There is a huge portion of hash rate that is centralized by ownership and has nothign to do with pools. Bitfury, 21, and ???
16:13 < adlai> "china" -_-
16:13 < smooth> maybe most of it at this point, we don really know
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16:14 < bsm117532> adlai: I've given a lot of thought to that.  Testing with a live coin makes my stomach churn.  I may have honest intentions, but it will result in a net transfer of dollars from someone to someone else, for no good reason.  OTOH the best way to test a system is to open it for attack, and give financial incentive for that attack.
16:14 < MRL-Relay> [othe] adlai, personally i find this discussion nuts, theres nothing "morally" wrong with trying things out different using different technology... what i find morally not so cool is taking money from people in stuff like IPO/ICO or whatever the fuck they call it nowadays
16:14 < smooth> adlai i think they are moral. No one is coerced, end of story. People have different systems of morality though. But that's almost certainly OT.
16:15 < MRL-Relay> [othe] if u take monero; there is so much stuff we cant even test on a sidechain...
16:15 < smooth> If you launch an altcoin and no one buys it, did the tree make a sound?
16:15 < adlai> oh it's a perfectly good reason, i'd say i a) agcee with smooth, b) consider movement of value from dumb pockets to smart ones a rising moral imperative, c) take this discussion to #shitcoin-wizards
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16:16 < AdrianG> smooth: smooth bitfure is still 16%
16:16 < smooth> AdrianG: at a minimum
16:17 < AdrianG> smooth: you think they mine via other pools as well?
16:17 < smooth> i thought that was widely suspected but im not really so much in touch with that
16:17 < smooth> but factually, it does seem to be a minimum
16:17 < smooth> and 16% is still a lot imo
16:18 < AdrianG> if the biggest pool would be at 16%, it would be much better than what we have now.
16:19 < AdrianG> with hardware manufacturer, and their client, combined are at nearly 50% of the hashrate.
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16:48 < ibrightly> bsm117532 - if you make a non-live coin via testnet, someone else will instantly fork it into a 'live' coin anyway. There's no stopping the fact that if distributed, tokens with perceived scarcity will be assigned value and therefore will be traded.
16:49 -!- Monthrect is now known as Piper-Off
16:49 < adlai> ibrightly: if you're genuinely concerned, start your own scarce network a few hours/months early, and boast to the world of your premine... doesn't prevent forkage, but fractures it into competing fractions a la von saberhagen
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16:50 < adlai> lessens seemingly-high-signal noise, increases profit for the opportune harvester
16:51 < ibrightly> adlai - doesn't that just peal away devs who would have contributed to the original coin by giving them an incentive to fork their own? For von saberhagen, it would have been far more impressive if BCN had been given a much less shady start.
16:52 < ibrightly> launch a coin, ignore the markets, develop the features you think are interesting and let those that disagree fork away. so in answer to your question, I am not genuinely concerned. :)
16:53 < adlai> nah, it's more impressive to express belief in the free market by letting it choose without blatant aristotelien first-mover prejudice
16:54 < ibrightly> i agree with that, except there's no need to sabotage yourself off the bat. (BCN, DRK/DASH, etc)
16:54 < MRL-Relay> [othe] what they did when they "launched" BCN was prolly the most stupid thing someone ever came up with...but thats ot i guess
16:57 < ibrightly> MRL-Relay: I would say that it was deceitful, but not stupid. Clearly the goal was short term profit and to that end, it certainly worked.
16:59 < MRL-Relay> [othe] no it didn´t like they wanted it to work out
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17:06 < ibrightly> If they had grandiose designs on holding some giant pre-mine for the next multi-bn valued crypto token, then sure, it failed. But if they cashed out with what they got, they could easily have profited by  several $m by now. Not bad for a bit of coding and design, no?
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17:12 < MRL-Relay> [othe] no there was never enough trade volume to cash out that stuff, with whatever totally legal ipo they could have made more and totally legal... but it's too off topic now, so last thing I say
17:12 < adlai> not to mention complete lack of burned bay-area bridges
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