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06:26 < kanzure> "interactive proof-of-stake" http://arxiv.org/abs/1601.00275 i haven't evaluated, don't shoot the messenger...
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07:28 < nsh> new from [bitcoin-dev] 'Confidential Transactions as a soft fork (using segwit)'
07:28 < kanzure> "Confidential Transactions as a soft fork (usingsegwit)" http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2016-January/012194.html
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07:28 < nsh> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2016-January/012194.html
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07:37 < jannes> I'm wondering if this was ever commented on by core devs? https://tradeblock.com/blog/bitcoin-network-capacity-analysis-part-6-data-propagation  June 2015, so I searched wizards log, but don't see it mentioned. Data (if correct) seems pretty supportive of the predicted problems of raising blocksize.
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07:43 < phantomcircuit> jannes, it would be significantly worse than it appears without the relay network
07:44 < phantomcircuit> notice how at 800-900 kB the relay time goes down relative to 700-800kB? that's because iirc 100% of miners mining >750kB blocks are on the relay network
07:44 < phantomcircuit> but the relay network isn't a security measure
07:45 < phantomcircuit> so their best-fit curve is off by a significant constant factor
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07:59 < jannes> phantomcircuit: That's a cool little data point about >750kB.
07:59 < jannes> phantomcircuit: Yeah I agree on your points about relay network. But even with that factor, this data already shows that for example 8MB is out of the question, right?
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08:03 < phantomcircuit> jannes, oh absolutely
08:03 < phantomcircuit> im saying that they understate just how out of the question it is
08:05 < jannes> Basically my question would be, can I use this data to prove to bigblockers that the problems are very real and any increase will quickly blow things up.
08:06 < jannes> And if so, I'm wondering why this data is not referenced more often in the discussions. Or maybe there is an improved study that does take the relay network into account?
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08:07 < kanzure> nah, they are intent on ignoring the relay network, see http://pastebin.com/jFgkk8M3
08:09 < jannes> oh geez is Peter R related to tradeblock?
08:09 < kanzure> sorry, "they" was not meant to refer to tradeblock, my bad
08:10 < kanzure> i have no idea. probably not?
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08:11 < jannes> oh ok... scared me there :)   I get it, you meant "bigblockers". That's true.
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08:13 < jannes> But if the tradeblock results _include_ the relay network and they already show that 4MB is pretty much impossible. I guess they will argue that the "propagation to 3000 nodes" is not relevant, only "propagation to the 100 miner nodes" or some such excuse.
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08:20 < phantomcircuit> jannes, they end up arguing for a system with a single central mining pool and removal of the 21 million bitcoin limit
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08:28 < kanzure> phantomcircuit: true, data that cannot be verified against known limits, is practically a removal of the limit
08:30 < kanzure> since centralized mining pools (and central transaction processing) is so trivial to achieve (especially compared to bitcoin's network and decentralization and properties), i am curious why they continue to insist on using the bitcoin p2p network for that. why don't they use a sidechain or some other mechanism? they can still use bitcoin-denominated transactions.
08:30 < kanzure> actually i guess one (perhaps uncharitable?) explanation could be that the resulting mining centralization is a clever game of KYC hot potato :-)
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08:32 < jannes> Sorry for bringing the blocksize debate into here. Certainly didn't intend to do that. :)
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08:37 < bsm117532> kanzure, nsh: I appreciate the mixing of segwit and confidential transactions.  Would like to see demo code.
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10:08 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] you can, of course, do CT as a softfork if you add new a whole new chunk of external validation data to a block. it's been long discussed before this, but almost everyone agreed that it's unrealistic in the current atmosphere where issues surrounding scalability dominate.
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10:11 < nsh> (domination by volume does not equate to prevailing rationality)
10:11 < nsh> (but i agree with the assessment, sadly)
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10:16 < phantomcircuit> bsm117532, it's possible but probably not a good idea for a number of reasons
10:17 < bsm117532> Eventually we'll get them both...
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10:22 < coinoperated> blockchain braids sounds like the beginning of a block fabric
10:22  * coinoperated reminds himself to scroll down before responding next time
10:23 < bsm117532> coinoperated: If you set the difficulty very low you get a lot of interconnecting beads.  Let's call it a Quilt.
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10:27 < bsm117532> A low-difficulty braid: http://imgur.com/qRwO4Oi
10:27 < phantomcircuit> bsm117532, i can see ct being in a sidechain that is merge mined
10:28 < phantomcircuit> i dont think we'll see ct in bitcoin core unless/until lightning (or whatever) takes a huge amount of the load off
10:28 < kanzure> hmm i guess we should start preparing proposals for drop-in api-compatible lightning stuff....
10:30 < bsm117532> Different way of plotting the same low-difficulty braid.  Genesis on left, braid-tips on right.  Each horizontal set of beads is one node (each have different difficulty targets). http://imgur.com/q6O3Eyo
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10:32 < bsm117532> A high-difficulty braid: http://imgur.com/H1ynirs Only a handful of beads have siblings (analogs of orphans)
10:33 < bsm117532> Throw questions about this at me...good ones will get answered in my paper.
10:33 < coinoperated> looks "intuitively" cool, guess i need to read another paper
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10:47 < kanzure> bsm117532: in your hong kong presentation you claimed that block size problems are mostly about and that work solves the contributions of block size to orphan rate. i think you should include text describing assumptions about why you think this is true, and how braiding changes network shape and friction contributed by bandwidth asymmetries. if your contention is that the utility function needs to make a decision about minimum resource ...
10:47 < kanzure> ... requirements for validators, then i think you should explicitly state this (and discuss this).
10:47 < kanzure> *and that your work solves
10:47  * nsh is more interested in robust decentralised steganographic channels than efficiency of trade so pretty biased towards CT  
10:48 < nsh> the worst thing about bitcoin is all this capitalism nonsense
10:48 < nsh> :P
10:49 < kanzure> nsh: you mean all the p2p stuff....?
10:49 < kanzure> nsh: transactions should only be authorized by the mother nation during five-year plans? :-)
10:52 < bsm117532> kanzure: Yes I discuss it, thanks for the reminder.  The problems with large blocks are really about latency and validation. Dividing the validation and propagation work smoothly over the entire 10 minute interval makes communication less "spiky" and doesn't max out the bandwidth, like trying to quickly transmit a 1MB block does.  1MB/10min is not a large bandwidth.
10:52 < kanzure> what do you mean by "is not a large bandwidth"?
10:52 < bsm117532> 1MB/10min = 1.7kb/s.
10:52 < kanzure> large is relative; this sort of assumption needs to be elucidated and discussed.
10:53 < bsm117532> If that data were smoothly distributed over the 10 min (as it would be with braids), the bandwidth requirements are modest.
10:54 < kanzure> implications of existing asymmetries, implications of kicking off certain nodes from the network, etc. implications of breaking backwards-compatibility and how this effects currency value, validation, reasons for mining. on the surface this probably seems irrelevant to you for your work, but there's very little reason for mining (or for a miner to bother mining) without an interest in these other aspects :-).
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10:55 < kanzure> also this applies to other validation cost metric stuff in the utility function you proposed
10:55 < bsm117532> As a practical matter, I'm leaning toward building this as a patch to bitcoin core that operates as a collaborative pool, like p2pool.
10:55  * bsm117532 takes notes, will go over your comments again as I edit the draft.  Thanks!
10:56 < kanzure> wasn't there something about the contributions of block size to orphan rate to already be minimal in situations involving the existing relay network?
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10:57 < kanzure> (while block size wasn't the motivation for your work, orphans and propagation were...)
10:58 < kanzure> to be more clear, by "relay network" i mean http://bitcoinrelaynetwork.org/
11:01 < erasmospunk> kanzure, the relay network helps but it is not part of the p2p network
11:01 < phantomcircuit> erasmospunk, it is actually a p2p protocol
11:01 < bsm117532> Yes it's clear regardless of infrastructure (relay network), as the block size goes up, orphan rates go up.  You can temporarily mitigate it with faster networks, but the effect is fundamental.
11:01 < phantomcircuit> it just so happens matt is the only one running nodes
11:02 < erasmospunk> phantomcircuit: obviously I am referring to the Bitcoin p2p network
11:03 < erasmospunk> the spiky full block propagation is the big stressor to the nodes
11:03 < erasmospunk> that's why increasing the block size is a bad idea
11:04 < bsm117532> And decreasing it is a good idea.  ;-)  But you can't use a "chain" anymore if you do that.
11:04 < nsh> >  data were smoothly distributed over the 10 min # would weak blocks work for this too?
11:04 < bsm117532> nsh: Yes they do.
11:04 < erasmospunk> nsh: yes
11:04 < phantomcircuit> erasmospunk, the better argument is that the relay network doesn't improve worst case behavior and thus provides zero additional security
11:05 < bsm117532> Weak blocks essentially pre-compute the block validation, and pre-relay the majority of the block.
11:05 < kanzure> i don't think it's possible to claim pre-consensus for adversarial conditions
11:05 < kanzure> or, such claims would be nonsense
11:06 < erasmospunk> phantomcircuit: the worst case is a block that is propagated by a >30% miner via the slow p2p network that contains transactions that were never broadcasted before
11:06 < erasmospunk> kanzure: it is possible with a soft fork
11:06 < phantomcircuit> erasmospunk, yeahhhh it's worse than that with miners doing stratum "validated" mining
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11:07 < kanzure> erasmospunk: many things are possible with a soft-fork. are you talking about "authorized" pre-consensus schemes?
11:08 < kanzure> also, "authorized pre-consensus" is incapable of enforcing adversary compliance, i think.
11:08 < erasmospunk> kanzure: no, https://gist.github.com/erasmospunk/23040383b7620b525df0
11:08 < kanzure> .title
11:08 < yoleaux> Efficient block relay format and mempool soft consensus · GitHub
11:08 < kanzure> please see https://gist.github.com/erasmospunk/23040383b7620b525df0#gistcomment-1661932
11:09 < erasmospunk> kanzure: thanks, for some reason I don't get notifications for gists :(
11:13 < erasmospunk> kanzure: "the argument for smaller blocks is not just bitcoin p2p consensus latency" here you mean the ever growing blockchain size?
11:14 < erasmospunk> what is the advantage of smaller block sizes except lower lag and compact blockchain?
11:15 < bsm117532> erasmospunk: If those smaller blocks are mined, you get faster confirmations too.
11:15 < kanzure> as requirements increase in the upward direction, you increase the minimum requirements for using bitcoin itself, which can have negative impact on compatibility with existing bitcoin nodes
11:15 < bsm117532> erasmospunk: Since smaller blocks (probably) have lower difficulty targets, it gets smaller miners back into the game and helps decentralize mining.
11:16 < erasmospunk> bsm117532: smaller blocks as in size?
11:16 < bsm117532> We still need to shard the blockchain, to reduce bandwidth and storage requirements of nodes, but that's a separate problem.
11:16 < bsm117532> erasmospunk: yes.
11:16 < kanzure> most validating nodes are outside of the direct proof-of-work consensus; or at least, the cost of a vlaidating node is presently cheaper than participation in mining consensus.
11:16 < erasmospunk> how smaller size lowers the difficulty?
11:16 < kanzure> well, presently cheaper than relevant participation in mining consensus. well, i mean, more than having one block every umpteen billion years.
11:17 < bsm117532> Smaller blocks must come more frequently.  With constant global hash rate, mined smaller blocks must have a lower target.
11:17 < erasmospunk> also regarding validation, you don't need to re-validate transactions that were in the mempool
11:17 < kanzure> you can't get stuff into the mempool if your connection is already saturated
11:18 < erasmospunk> bsm117532: ok, I understood what you mean. I don't think we will ever get rid of the 10min block interval
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11:19 < bsm117532> erasmospunk: No, the 10m block interval must remain because it is the payout schedule.  However we can decouple it propagating and validating transactions.
11:19 < erasmospunk> kanzure: for 100tx/s you need 50KB/s if we assume 500b average tx size
11:19 < kanzure> erasmospunk: yes i'm aware that we can calculate constants and values for these. but i don't think that's interesting :-).
11:20 < kanzure> it would be surprising if we couldn't, heh
11:21 < kanzure> i would say the actual values are irrelevant, but that to increase the number of participants capable of validation you generally have ot keep requirements low, or generally decreasing, or always increasing slower than technology development and perhaps even accruing benefits from tech development over time.
11:22 < erasmospunk> bsm117532: ok. In that case do we need to include the transactions in the smaller blocks or referring them with tx ids?
11:22 < kanzure> *accruing unused benefits
11:23 < bsm117532> erasmospunk: Implementation detail.  You can do it both ways.  In the latter case you depend on the p2p relay network to transmit tx's.  But it's also possible to build a network *without* that layer and only relay mined tx's.  It's also possible to have a blockless system...
11:23 < erasmospunk> kanzure: I agree. We are wasting bandwidth today with re-broadcasting transactions together with the full blocks
11:24 < bsm117532> I'm a fan of stripping out the p2p relaying of umined tx's.  It's a DDoS target.
11:24 < phantomcircuit> bsm117532, there's code to do that in core already
11:25 < erasmospunk> bsm117532: interesting, how your transactions will reach the miners in that case?
11:25 < bsm117532> phantomcircuit: wha wha wha?!?!  pointers?
11:25 < phantomcircuit> with the mempool limiter it's not really an issue any longer though
11:25 < phantomcircuit> bsm117532, -blocksonly
11:25 < bsm117532> erasmospunk: Everyone has to be a miner.  Or, make an arrangement to mine on behalf of someone else.  But that doesn't have to be a core functionality.
11:26 < bsm117532> phantomcircuit: That's not really what I meant.  I meant a PoW hash for every tx.
11:26 < bsm117532> e.g. hashcash everything you send me or my node will reject it.
11:26 < phantomcircuit> bsm117532, oh, yeah that's something people have thought about, mostly for the connection eviction logic though
11:26 < erasmospunk> bsm117532: something like a POW fee for your transaction, right? Sounds like BitMessage
11:28 < gavinandresen> bsm117532: transaction fees are exactly the same as POW hashes. They're tiny pieces of POW hashes, re-circulated through the network
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11:29 < bsm117532> gavinandresen: Exactly.  You can imagine a network where there's a back-and-forth between the PoW hash and tx fee.  Pay the tx fee with mining, or mine a tiny bit and include a tx fee for someone else to mine.
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11:29 < gavinandresen> bsm117532: how is that any different from what we have right now?
11:30 < bsm117532> gavinandresen: Right now we relay tx's by p2p for free.
11:30 < bsm117532> gavinandresen: The effect comes out in aggregate, once you integrate over mining pools (which don't need to exist for this idea)
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11:32 < phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, it's different but only just slightly
11:33 < phantomcircuit> some sort of micropayment system for nodes relaying transactions might be preferable but isn't reasonable today
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11:35 < bsm117532> Thank -wizards for being unreasonable.  "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- G. B. Shaw
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11:38 < gavinandresen> I've never seen a good explanation of why relay nodes are necessary, in an ideal network transaction creators and recipients would talk directly to each other and would just directly give transactions to miners. And miners (and whoever else was interested in doing full validation) would talk amongst themselves.... I don't see a "relay" function needed when we have a lower level network perfectly able to relay information to any co
11:38 < gavinandresen> mputer anywhere in the world.
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11:41 < bsm117532> Relay nodes centralize mining. Every relay node should be a miner. This one way Satoshi set up the system for mining centralization.  :-/
11:43 < phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, there's a number of reasons not the least of which is that the p2p network provides a significant amount of resistance against detection of mining nodes
11:43 < bsm117532> Satoshi's original idea was that all nodes would be mining nodes though...
11:44 < gavinandresen> bsm117532: ummm... no... he said most nodes would be SPV nodes.
11:44 < phantomcircuit> can we agree to stop trying to quote war satoshi?
11:44 < phantomcircuit> it's not useful
11:44 < bsm117532> Ok true, but he didn't envision non-mining, non-spv nodes that the majority of the network is composed of now.
11:44 < gavinandresen> bsm117532: if relay nodes centralize mining... then mining would be decentralized if we got rid of relay nodes?
11:44 < phantomcircuit> our understanding of the system has advanced significantly since that time
11:45 < bsm117532> gavinandresen: Yes. I'll only relay your tx if you mine it a little bit. (at which point it can be added to a DMMS like a blockchain or braid)
11:46 < gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: mining nodes hiding among lots of nodes for DoS resistance is a good point. But it probably makes more economic sense for them to just spin up a few hundred nodes instead of trying to find a scheme to incentivize people to run relay nodes.
11:46 < gavinandresen> (note I said probably, I could easily change my mind)
11:47 < phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, ddos filtering for bitcoin traffic is crazy expensive
11:47 < gavinandresen> Maybe not a coincidence that btcc just announced they're running a bunch of full nodes....
11:49 < phantomcircuit> i suspect that had something to do with trying to improve relaying of their pools blocks
11:50 < phantomcircuit> i also suspect it wont do that but whatever
11:52 < phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, DDoS protection for anything except http/https is very very expensive
11:52 < kanzure> why would micropayments work for transaction relaying? wouldn't most people just use free relays? or is the idea that all the free relayers would evaporate over time?
11:52 < phantomcircuit> it's pretty cheap if nobody can figure out how to target you though
11:53 < kanzure> the reason why relay nodes are necessary is because you don't necessarily know the next miner
11:54 < kanzure> "resistance against detection" seems like a backwards reason to me :P
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11:54 < kanzure> if you know the set of miners who will in 99.99999999% likelihood generate the next block, then something has gone terribly wrong i think
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11:56 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, also that
11:56 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, resistance to detection is also important though
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11:56 < kanzure> yea i agree, but i think it wont communicate anything meaningful to gavinandresen :-)
11:56 < phantomcircuit> you can buy a ddos from shady .su sites for like $5 that will knock out most servers
11:56 < kanzure> oh right.
11:57 < phantomcircuit> ironically they all only take bitcoin now
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11:57 < kanzure> seems sort of self-defeating
11:57 < bsm117532> This argument is circular: you need a relay network to protect (centralized) miners from DDoS, but you only get mining centralization if you have a relay network. If everyone HAD to mine to participate in the network, it would be more decentralized, and you wouldn't need free relay.
11:58 < bsm117532> Outsourcing mining is left as an exercise to the reader.
11:59 < gavinandresen> bsm117532: you're ignoring the possiblity that if everybody HAD to mine to participate, you'd end up with nobody participating.
12:00 < gavinandresen> I'm not saying that's what WOULD happen....
12:00  * nsh nods
12:00 < bsm117532> I'd participate.
12:00  * bsm117532 strokes his cute little 21.co mining computer on his desk.
12:01 < bsm117532> gavinandresen: I'm not saying that all fees must be paid by mining.  I'm saying everyone must mine a *little* (even if it's CPU mining).  That incentivizes everyone to up their mining game, at the edges of the network.
12:02 < nsh> 'everyone' precludes any thin-clients / spv nodes etc.
12:03 < nsh> which is a big pain in the arse for PoS and other use-cases
12:03 < bsm117532> nsh I'm excluding spv nodes from this argument.
12:03 < nsh> ok
12:03 < bsm117532> That's a different threat model.
12:06 < nsh> the threats have an annoying indifference to which way they're modelled in practice :)
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12:20 < PeterR> Jannes: using estimates for average network latency and propagation impedance from G. Andrew Stone's recent paper, orphan rate would be ~20% with 8 MB blocks.
12:20 < PeterR> See Section 6 here:
12:20 < PeterR> http://www.bitcoinunlimited.info/public/downloads/subchains.pdf
12:22 < PeterR> Here is the paper from Stone:
12:22 < PeterR> http://www.bitcoinunlimited.info/1txn/
12:23 < bsm117532> *sigh* I'm gonna have to read those, aren't I...
12:23 < PeterR> Mine has pretty pictures :-)
12:24 < bsm117532> PeterR you and I are going to end up debating subchains vs. braids soon.
12:24 < PeterR> Yes, I'm quite interested in braids actually.  Planning to learn more about them in the next few weeks...
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12:24 < gavinandresen> ... I'll bring the popcorn and see if the GHOST protocol and Emin/Ittay will debate, too....
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12:27 < bsm117532> I'm pretty down on GHOST and related papers because of selfish mining.
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12:29 < gavinandresen> I keep getting distracted, but I've been meaning to try to get together a data set that could be used as a common measuring stick for different ideas for how to optimize information propagation across the network and the process of coming to consensus
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12:34 < nsh> a data set? i'd have imagined a dynamic simulation would be necessary in most cases
12:34 < nsh> or do you mean to a data set to use in simulation?
12:34 < gavinandresen> a data set to use in simulation, so apples-to-apples comparisons can be done.
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12:35  * nsh nods
12:35 < gavinandresen> Ideally a data set that reflects actual transaction volume patterns....
12:35 < gavinandresen> (or IS actual transactions)
12:35 < nsh> right. good idea
12:35 < bsm117532> Someone has a large dataset...mentioned at Scaling Bitcoin...trying to recall who it is.  kanzure do you have the link?
12:35 < gavinandresen> rusty has mempool data
12:37 < gavinandresen> (that includes when his nodes first saw transactions, if I recall correctly)
12:37 < gavinandresen> CoinScope project has a lot of data, too.... as I said, I keep getting distracted, haven't put it together....
12:38 < PeterR> gavinandresen: good idea.  There are lots of performance metrics: orphan races, marginal orphaning risk (fee density), zero-confirm security (if any), selfish mining deterrence.
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12:39 < bsm117532> I'm pretty sure it was jtoomim.
12:39 < PeterR> Would be good to compare each under apple-to-apples conditions.
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12:41 < bsm117532> Here's the transcript of his talk http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/hong-kong/bip101-block-propagation-data-from-testnet/
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13:37 < kanzure> no it wasn't jtoomim
13:37 < kanzure> i mean, he did have a data set, but the one you are thinking of is rusty's corpus
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13:37 < kanzure> https://github.com/rustyrussell/bitcoin-corpus and https://github.com/chr15m/bitcoin-notebook
13:37 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/hong-kong/invertible-bloom-lookup-tables-and-weak-block-propagation-performance/
13:38 < kanzure> there was also the dataset that gmaxwell was using http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/gmaxwell-2015-11-09-mining-and-block-size-etc/
13:39 < kanzure> which is definitely not the one you are thinking about
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14:38 < bsm117532> Ledger Journal (ledgerjournal.org) has extended the submission deadline for the inaugural edition to Jan 15.  For those of you working on papers.  Hop to it!
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14:43 < PeterR> bsm117532: to clarify, the editorial team *may* consider submissions up to Jan 15 for the first edition, contingent upon timely peer review, and whether the paper helps to "balance" the spectrum of topics covered.
14:44 < moa> bsm117532: anonymous review?
14:44 < PeterR> Single-blind
14:45 < PeterR> High-quality papers are always welcome of course!
14:45 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
14:46 < moa> like with colourful animations and etc?
14:47 < PeterR> :-)
14:48 < bsm117532> PeterR: my braids paper is coming your way.
14:48 < bsm117532> Just trying to stir the pot and get more things in this space peer reviewed.  ;-)
14:49 < PeterR> Looking forward to it!
14:49 < bsm117532> Also would be happy to review...
14:50 < bsm117532> You've got a pretty big editorial board though, I imagine you've got it covered for the inagural issue ;-)
14:50 < moa> peer-to-peer review
14:51 < PeterR> Are you registered as an author already?  If you're not, please do so and send me a note with your reviewing interests, and I will add you to our reviewer database.
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14:51 < bsm117532> I am registerd.
14:53 < PeterR> Let me know your name and I'll add reviewer credentials to your account.
14:55 < PeterR> Acutally, I just figured who you were out on my own :)
14:56 < bsm117532> sending you a mail.  I haven't been hiding my identity really...
14:56 < AdrianG> PeterR: PeterR when is the first edition comping out
14:57 < AdrianG> coming out*
14:57 < PeterR> OK, you're now in our reviewer database.  It would be great if you could login and add your "reviewing interests" to your account.
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14:58 < PeterR> AdrianG: We're aiming for the spring.  April or May.  But since this is our first time, we're unsure how long it will take to push everything through peer-review and through copy-editting.
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15:02 < moa> PeterR do you need a copy-editor?
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16:58 < nsh> so chaum lost the plot, or what?
16:59 < merlincorey> haha yeah
16:59 < merlincorey> I saw that
16:59 < bsm117532>  Saw what?
17:00 < nsh> probably the media hype is obscuring a potentially viable concept
17:01 < nsh> but some notion of a mixnet that would obviate the need for tor/i2p, with no noticeable delay/latency and requiring just 9 servers in heterogenous legal regimes
17:01 < nsh> i haven't read the paper. being presented at Real World Crypto in Stanford today
17:01 < nsh> but it's not getting a great reception already
17:01 <@gwillen> well, I gotta say, I don't like the key escrow part of it
17:02 <@gwillen> "Chaum is also building into PrivaTegrity another feature that’s sure to be far more controversial: a carefully controlled backdoor that allows anyone doing something “generally recognized as evil” to have their anonymity and privacy stripped altogether."
17:02 < nsh> ( http://www.wired.com/2016/01/david-chaum-father-of-online-anonymity-plan-to-end-the-crypto-wars/ )
17:02  * gwillen only just started reading in response to nsh's message just now
17:02  * nsh nods
17:02 -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [-o gwillen] by gwillen
17:03 < gwillen> I wonder if he decided to call that a feature because it's a sort of inherent property of the system he built, so may as well try to rebrand it
17:04 < nsh> possibly. i'm trying to reserve judgement on the hopes that the presentation is recorded and will be made public
17:05  * gwillen nods
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17:05 < gwillen> I wouldn't say he's lost the plot but I think he's not taking social factors into account adequately
17:05 < gwillen> which is a common problem...
17:06 < gwillen> mixnets are already pretty specialized, normal internet users expect low latency
17:06 < gwillen> and the kind of people who would use a mixnet will not stand for a backdoored one
17:07 < phantomcircuit> lol
17:07 < phantomcircuit> tv show, murder during a treasure hunt in manhatten, prize at the end is a flash drive with bitcoins on it
17:07 < phantomcircuit> amusingly this actually makes total sense
17:07 < phantomcircuit> oops wrong channel
17:08 < gwillen> hahahaha, hi phantomcircuit  :-)
17:08  * phantomcircuit waves to gwillen 
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17:22 < nsh> gwillen, agreed. sounds like a political solution to a technical problem from an expert in the technical and not the political/social
17:22 < nsh> you can achieve a lot if you're allowed to assume some subset of parties will never collude
17:22 < nsh> but extending that to the anonymity of the internet is a pretty breathtaking stretch
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17:34 < jcorgan> inb4 all the pols say, "See we told you it was possible, David Chaum, one of you, says so!"
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17:46 < nsh> or maybe he's playing a corker of a double-bluff, and is setting this project up to fail like the clipper chip
17:47 < dcousens> nsh: not as uncommon as you'd think
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17:48 < moa> OP_BLINDSIGN
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--- Log closed Thu Jan 07 00:00:58 2016