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Connection reset by peer] 04:41 -!- nuke_ [~nuke@46.198.192.230] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:48 -!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:49 -!- rubensayshi [~ruben@c89225.upc-c.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:01 -!- tjader [~tjader@189.60.213.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:02 -!- rubensayshi [~ruben@212.187.89.225] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:06 -!- bit2017 [~linker@210.245.34.191] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:06 -!- tjader [~tjader@189.60.213.1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:06 -!- tromp [~tromp@rtc35-246.rentec.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:08 -!- adam3us [~Adium@63.138.18.50] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:12 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:12 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-139-55-215-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:15 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:15 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:36 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Quit: laurentmt] 05:52 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@78-11-180-214.static.ip.netia.com.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:52 -!- brg444 [18257df2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.37.125.242] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:52 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:54 -!- MoALTz [~no@78-11-180-214.static.ip.netia.com.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:56 -!- Yoghur114 [~Yoghurt11@131.224.198.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:59 -!- Yoghur114 [~Yoghurt11@131.224.198.111] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:02 -!- Yoghur114 [~Yoghurt11@131.224.198.111] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:02 -!- Yoghur114 [~Yoghurt11@131.224.198.111] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:03 < bsm117532> There are two parts of Sybil resistance: identifying entities, and ensuring each entity is properly rate-limited. It's assumed each identified "entity" can't obtain additional identities for a Sybil attack. Rate-limiting is fairly easy -- block timestamps could be used to create "blockchain time" and each entity could skew its clock toward the network's global median time, and dump blocks in excess of the rate-limiting restriction. Difficulty 06:04 < bsm117532> PoW mixes these two concepts. PoS attempts to identify entities through stake or bonding deposits, so needs a separate rate limiting algorithm. (PoS needs reference to external value to work, however, or its consensus argument is circular) Central entity identification is of course possible ("Permissioned Distributed Ledgers"). 06:04 < bsm117532> Given that rate limiting seems easy, the remaining task is a distributed, Sybil-resistant mechanism to distribute identities (let's say they're keys for block-signing). 06:04 -!- rustyn [~rustyn@unaffiliated/rustyn] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:05 -!- smk [b903879a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.185.3.135.154] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:09 < kanzure> bsm117532: how is that any different from the "dynamic membership multiparty signature" concept? 06:09 < bsm117532> kanzure: It's not. It's identical. Just trying to noodle where Sybil resistance comes from. The DMMS concept doesn't specify who gets to make the signatures. 06:10 < bsm117532> A DMMS, by itself, is not automatically Sybil resistant. 06:11 < kanzure> neither is bitcoin, above the difficulty threshold. 06:11 < kanzure> (er, there are probably some additional parameters beyond just difficulty threshold, but w/e) 06:13 < bsm117532> Indeed. Bitcoin's difficulty target is a poor proxy for "number of participating entities". 06:14 < kanzure> why does the number of participating entities matter? 06:14 < bsm117532> A Sybil attack is by definition the creation of a large number of fraudulent identities. 06:15 < kanzure> bitcoin tries to fix this by not caring whether an identity is "fraudulent" 06:15 < bsm117532> Yes, which is why I call it a "poor" proxy for "number of participating entities". 06:16 < bsm117532> (At least from the perspective of a Sybil attack) 06:17 < kanzure> in the absence of good-sounding metrics for decentralization, i suggest that a cost minimization trend would be a good thing to pursue 06:17 < bsm117532> From this perspective, bitcoin is outsourcing block creation to Sybil attackers (large mining pools). 06:17 < bsm117532> kanzure: can you elaborate on "cost minimization"? How does that come into a Sybil argument? 06:18 < kanzure> bitcoin puts a floor on the cost of you getting tricked about consensus. the floor is in terms of proof-of-work, but other resource requirements do play a role (like validation requirements, bandwidth requirements, even for non-mining nodes). 06:19 < stonecoldpat> bsm117532: PoW doesn't have a reputation system that can be sybilled? all that matters is hash power, regardless if its 1 or 1,000 people, the protocol doesn't necessarily care 06:20 < stonecoldpat> which i think kanzure was alluding too when saying it doesnt care if the identity is fraudulent 06:31 -!- zookolaptop [~user@2601:281:8001:26aa:3497:5ba3:9f3c:cb4e] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:31 -!- tjader [~tjader@189.60.213.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:34 -!- zookolaptop [~user@50.141.117.128] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:35 -!- zookolaptop is now known as zooko 06:36 -!- tjader [~tjader@189.60.213.1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:37 -!- 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quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:29 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:34 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:35 -!- adam3us [~Adium@63.138.18.50] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:40 -!- malte [~malte@alkaid.uberspace.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:40 < kanzure> "I know it's not on a mainframe but if you think 8,000 vms is a lot (which it is!) Ron Minnich ran 1,000,000 Linux VMs on the Thunderbird supercomputing cluster with Dell supplied 4,480-nodes." https://share.sandia.gov/news/resources/news_releases/sandia-computer-scientists-successfully-boot-one-million-linux-kernels-as-virtual-machines/ 10:42 -!- pinhead [b81718b8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.184.23.24.184] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:42 < kanzure> "“Eventually, we would like to be able to emulate the computer network of a small nation, or even one as large as the United States, in order to ‘virtualize’ and monitor a cyber attack,” he said." 10:43 -!- pinhead [b81718b8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.184.23.24.184] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 10:43 < rusty> kanzure: yeah, Ron's hack was cool: AFAIK he's the only serious user of lguest, like, ever. 10:46 < jgarzik> heh 10:51 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:59 -!- malte [~malte@2a00:d0c0:200:0:b9:1a:9c2c:300] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:01 -!- fkhan_ [weechat@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-bkbszwdodgvizjkv] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:01 -!- atgreen [~green@38.104.156.251] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:01 -!- tjader [~tjader@189.60.213.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:02 -!- Erik_dc [~erik@d54C620ED.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:06 -!- tjader [~tjader@189.60.213.1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:07 -!- frankenmint [~frankenmi@67-5-247-11.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:07 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:08 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 11:12 -!- frankenmint [~frankenmi@67-5-247-11.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:13 -!- fkhan_ [weechat@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-fpbetoxdefhmqdsy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:15 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:15 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 11:40 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:42 -!- smk [b903879a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.185.3.135.154] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:44 < nsh> .t http://blog.sldx.com/proof-of-location/ 11:44 < yoleaux> nsh: Sorry, I don't know what timezone that is. If in doubt, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tz_database_time_zones for a list of options. 11:44 < nsh> .title http://blog.sldx.com/proof-of-location/ 11:44 < yoleaux> Proof of Location – SolidX Blog 11:44 < nsh> this is you, isn't is bsm117532? 11:44 < bsm117532> Yes. 11:45 < nsh> awesome 11:45 < nsh> i had the idea of GPS sats sending nowness hashes years back for space-time bound decryptability 11:46 < bsm117532> Cool. I was pretty proud of that blog post. ;-) 11:46 < nsh> but had an interesting conversation with zooko over the weekend about using something like this to distribute blockmining geographically 11:46 < bsm117532> Hmmm...I've been thinking about that a lot WRT braids. You end up in a situation where you want geographically distributed mining. 11:47 * nsh nods 11:47 < bsm117532> But I can basically get that by incentivization of fast block creation instead. 11:47 < nsh> oh? 11:48 < bsm117532> Yes, if you win more BTC by creating a bead/block quickly, you get geographic distribution. 11:48 < bsm117532> Where "quick" is determined by the DAG structure order, relative to the quickness of other miners. 11:49 < bsm117532> This was in my talk, I called it "cohort difficulty" -- your target difficulty relative to other miners separated from you by the light cone should be similar. 11:49 < nsh> so why doesn't someone with a bunch of concentrated hashpower mine fast blocks in one spot? 11:50 < nsh> so there is some entropy incorporated from other participants who are distal? 11:50 < nsh> how do you ensure they are distal? 11:50 < kanzure> speed-of-light constraints could be used for a proof of location as long as you are okay with people delaying evidence of them having received something 11:50 < bsm117532> Good question. 11:50 * bsm117532 ponders 11:51 < nsh> kanzure, this is why - i think - you need a lot of beacons of nowness [nonce-cones] that originate from a geographical distributed constellation (like GPS-sats) 11:52 < nsh> but you can use other infrastructure as long as it's mapped and you can compensate for the topography 11:52 < bsm117532> nsh: In principle you can tell the topography from the graph itself. 11:53 < nsh> yeah, that's a fascinating idea 11:53 < nsh> i need to think hard about it 11:54 < bsm117532> e.g. imagine a uniformly distributed set of nodes on the surface of a sphere, each generating blocks. 11:54 < nsh> right 11:54 < bsm117532> This will generate a particular set of DAG connections that will differ from e.g. if the points were distributed on the surface of a pyramid. 11:54 < nsh> this already assumes we stop the creation of artificial extent through delayed relaying/mining? 11:55 < bsm117532> You mean the delay caused by PoW? 11:55 < kanzure> in the logs in here there was osmtehing about using orbital telescopes for infrared imaging to confirm heat generation from hashing. 11:55 < nsh> (waiting before acting on your source of now (hashes) is equivalent to introducing more distance) 11:55 < nsh> or nodes gaming for whatever reason 11:56 -!- belcher [~user@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:56 < nsh> well, we have to probably limit ourselves to what can reasonably be part of the consensus rules 11:56 < nsh> big brother telescopes are hard to codify 11:56 < kanzure> you don't need big brother telescopes 11:56 < kanzure> you can use orbital rainbow technique 11:56 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/space/Orbiting%20rainbows%20-%20optical%20manipulation%20of%20aerosols%20and%20the%20beginnings%20of%20future%20space%20construction%20-%20NASA.pdf 11:56 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:57 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/space/Image%20restoration%20from%20a%20sequence%20of%20random%20masks.pdf 11:57 < bsm117532> Well with braids I'm adding a faster layer. So you want, on average, there to be many beads/blocks created within the time interval defining the light cone. 11:57 < nsh> i'm suggesting you can't couple the measurement of IR with the logic that decides is a block is valid without pathological degree of complexity 11:57 < nsh> *if 11:57 < bsm117532> The fundemental propagation time across the network is ~1s, so the bead rate will be many per second. 11:58 < bsm117532> One can then create a metric of "were these distributed on the surface of a sphere", and use it in the incentive formula. 11:59 < bsm117532> Which will end up after a long time incentivizing people to put mining hardware in the middle of the Pacific, or using artificial delays to make it look like there is mining hardware in the Pacific. 11:59 < nsh> i think there's a boottrapping problem: you can't use sequence to determine geometry and at the same time use geometry to induce sequencing. if you already had some distributed notion of proper-time then you could project back from the braid-structure to the likely space on which it was mined 11:59 < nsh> but i think if you're trying to use the network itself as the clock, then you get a catch-22 12:00 < bsm117532> Hmmm... 12:00 < nsh> but maybe i'm just being intuitively pessimistic 12:00 < nsh> need to puzzle it out formally 12:00 < bsm117532> It's certainly true I can create any topography I want in the graph structure by introducing artificial delays. 12:01 < bsm117532> BTW the topography is defined by the set of parent links in a DAG, not by the hashrate. 12:01 < nsh> right. so that's why i asked if there's already something that's putting spacetime tension on nodes so that they fall behind if they delay at all 12:01 < nsh> which we already get a low resolution with blocktime anyway 12:02 < nsh> it's just that light goes so awfully fast and we can't hold everyone to a statistical mining tick that's small enough 12:02 < nsh> (but this is probably because i don't understand your bead mining model properly) 12:02 -!- jannes [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:02 < nsh> *at low 12:02 < bsm117532> nsh: You don't actually need a clock. Instead you use the fact that one node "couldn't possibly have seen" beads that come later in time. 12:03 < nsh> right, hash generation is a lock 12:03 < nsh> *clock 12:03 < nsh> any hash generated with input from a past event makes a later event 12:03 < bsm117532> Still puzzling over your question about all the mining in the same geographic area. 12:04 < nsh> gtg now, but will think more on this :) 12:04 < bsm117532> I'd prefer to have all nodes mining. In particular, have every transaction mined (even if CPU mining) so that you can't separate the mining from the geographic distribution of currency holders. 12:04 < nsh> thanks for the blogpost! 12:04 < bsm117532> Sure, glad you enjoyed it! 12:06 -!- atgreen [~green@38.104.156.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:07 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:16 -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:18 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:18 -!- zookolaptop [~user@2601:281:8001:26aa:2570:26be:1433:31b8] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:19 -!- atgreen [~green@38.104.156.251] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:21 -!- bit2017 [~linker@171.250.100.197] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:21 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Quit: laurentmt] 12:24 -!- stevenroose_ [~steven@2a02:2c40:400:b000::1:9fa0] has joined 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ZZZzzz…] 16:30 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:30 -!- JoiIto_ [~textual@c-73-4-165-131.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:33 -!- jtimon [~quassel@126.31.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:35 -!- JoiIto_ [~textual@c-73-4-165-131.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:38 -!- rustyn [~rustyn@unaffiliated/rustyn] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 16:39 -!- rustyn [~rustyn@unaffiliated/rustyn] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:40 -!- brg444 [415ce066@gateway/web/freenode/ip.65.92.224.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:42 -!- stevenroose|BNC [stevenroos@bnc1.sollidi.us] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:43 -!- pizzalvr- [~pizzalvr-@static-50-53-74-188.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:45 < pizzalvr-> could nodes simply reject a block as invalid if it includes a double-spend? 16:49 < dgenr8> pizzalvr-: not quite. but there are ideas whereby they could deprecate those blocks, if the double-spend were obvious enough 16:56 -!- Tiraspol [~Tiraspol3@c-98-212-187-224.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:56 -!- Tiraspol [~Tiraspol3@c-98-212-187-224.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:56 -!- Tiraspol [~Tiraspol3@unaffiliated/tiraspol] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:03 -!- brg444 [415ce066@gateway/web/freenode/ip.65.92.224.102] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:06 -!- licnep [uid4387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-steqnoxonmbcatnw] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 17:07 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:07 < pizzalvr-> dgenr8, so that code would delay the transmission of blocks X seconds if the miner were acting poorly? 17:08 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 17:09 -!- voxelot [~voxelot@remote.digitalmoneycorp.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:13 -!- 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