--- Log opened Tue Jan 19 00:00:09 2016
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01:05  * andy-logbot is logging
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01:29 < fustkilas> hello
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07:16 < adlai> ;;later tell bramc PoM - proof-of-memory - because all you're really doing is trying to make an exabyte-scale proof-of-memory
07:16 < gribble> The operation succeeded.
07:18 < adlai> ;;later tell bramc er sorry, s/\w+$/memory-hard PoW/
07:18 < gribble> The operation succeeded.
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10:06 < ryan-c`> Anyone know of a faster-than-brute-force attack on secp256k1 when the first ~200 are known and a signature is available?
10:09 < ryan-c`> (replies may be directed to ryan-c)
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13:11 < maaku> ~200 what?
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13:31 < tromp_> presumably 200 bits of private key
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13:49 < bitcoin-wizards2> l
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14:03 < bramc> I'm tempted to write up a FAQ about Bitcoin for crypto experts
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14:04 < nsh> goforit
14:04 < bramc> Q. What's all this stuff about macroeconomics and golbuggism? Isn't goldbuggism not taken seriously by real economists? A. Yes, Bitcoin is a commodity not a currency, just ignore that discussion
14:04 < bramc> Q. What's keeping Bitcoin's price up? Couldn't it swing down to $10 tomorrow? A. Yes it could. Caveat Emptor.
14:05 < bramc> Q. Doesn't Bitcoin mining inherently waste lots of resources doing nothing? A. Yes, it does.
14:05 < gwillen> heh
14:07 < bramc> Q. Doesn't Bitcoin have a hard scaling limit at a not very high amount? What happens when it reaches that? A. Yes it does. At that point fees go up. People are working on net settlement mechanisms to dramatically improve scaling.
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14:09 < belcher> have you often come across crypto experts interested but ignorant of btc ?
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14:10 < bramc> Q. What is Bitcoin good for? A. Bitcoin is good for transferring value reliably and incontrovertibly. To a lesser extent it's good at sheltering assets from being seized, but they could be frozen much more easily than people think. There's also some interesting work on smart transactions going on.
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14:12 < bramc> belcher, Yes all the time in crypto circles. Often they've looked into bitcoin enough to be aware of its puke-inducing characteristics and are either turned off by them or think they misunderstand or think that bitcoin partisans are a bunch of liars who misrepresent what it is.
14:14 < kanzure> http://popeller.io/index.php/2016/01/19/weak-blocks-the-good-and-the-bad/
14:15 < bramc> These people always find it reassuring that there's a core group of devs who are well aware of all the problems and don't bullshit about them.
14:17 < kanzure> bramc: a cryptography-oriented FAQ about bitcoin might be particularly interesting for recruiting reviewers etc. iirc one in particular called bitcoin a "denial-of-service attack on crypto review time".
14:18 < kanzure> wait that's not the quote... what did djb say?
14:18 < kanzure> ah, i am thinking of dan kaminsky's slides here: http://www.slideshare.net/dakami/bitcoin-8776098
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14:19 < bramc> kanzure, It could certainly be expanded into something which is actually helpful for crypto people trying to learn, the basic idea here is to get across the message 'Yes those are all serious issues and we know about them and don't have great solutions'
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14:20 < kanzure> i suppose something like in the spirit of this document? (which was trying to document -wizards lore) https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/asic-faq.pdf
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14:22 < kanzure> ah the quote was "Bitcoin is a particularly effective DoS against security professionals"
14:30 < coinoperated> <bramc>: Q. What's keeping Bitcoin's price up?    <---  the more intriguing half of the question remains unanswered
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14:33 < zookolaptop> coinoperated: What's the more intriguing half? "What's keeping Bitcoin's price down?" ?
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14:35 < coinoperated> zookolaptop:  the less intriguing half was truncated
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14:41 < moa> What is keeping Bitcoin's price down?
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14:51 < bsm117532> moa: -> #bitcoin-pricetalk
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14:53 < moa> :( #bitcoin-pricetalk is invitation only, wish I never knew it existed now, thnx bsm117532
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14:53 < gwillen> moa: try ##bitcoin, I hear that's a place you can go
14:54 < gwillen> although I have not been in it myself
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15:11 < bramc> That is so annoying
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15:18 < PeterR> Statement: "The expectation value of the time between when a miner solves a block and when 50% of the hash rate has received and validated that block increases with the size of the block mined."
15:18 < PeterR> Choose the best answer:
15:18 < PeterR> A. TRUE
15:18 < PeterR> B. FALSE
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15:21 < bsm117532> PeterR: obviously true.
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15:21 < PeterR> What would be the best way to prove that?
15:22 < kanzure> validation cost
15:22 < bsm117532> Prove that if A > B, A takes more time to transmit across the network; and block B takes longer to validate.
15:22 < phantomcircuit> PeterR, your question is under specified, is there a single miner which is > 50% of the hash rate?
15:22 < bsm117532> haahaaa phantomcircuit
15:22 < rusty> bsm117532: um, no, consider pre-publishing solutions.  The publishing of the coinbase + nonce is all that is required then, which is not proportional to block size.
15:23 < rusty> This ground has been well covered previously.
15:23 < kanzure> pathological case of exotic block from non-cooperative-pre-publication miner
15:23 < kanzure> *non-pre-publication
15:23 < phantomcircuit> rusty, pre-publishing solutions do not work under adversarial conditions, which we must assume for security considerations
15:24 < phantomcircuit> rusty, the answer to his question is true, unless more than 50% of the hash rate is centralized then false for blocks found by that miner
15:24 < phantomcircuit> which is to say that larger blocks inherently cause centralization pressure
15:24 < phantomcircuit> but im sure he's just trying to manipulate people into answering an under specified question
15:24 < kanzure> i wonder if maaku would agree that bandwidth cost needs to be considered in validation cost metrics
15:25 < kanzure> for validation cost metrics purely for rating/scoring block contents, i think the answer is no
15:25 < PeterR> bsm117532: would you agree that--ceteris paribus--communicating more *information* takes more time, as per Shannon's carrying capacity theorem?
15:25 < rusty> phantomcircuit: depends on what you're trying to measure.   The question of "is it possible to mine s.t. costs are not proportional to block size" vs "can we force others to mine s.t. costs are not proportional to block size"
15:25 < phantomcircuit> rusty, "s.t." ?
15:25 < rusty> phantomcircuit: such that
15:26 < kanzure> PeterR: the more centralized the network the less information that needs to be propagated
15:26 < bsm117532> PeterR: yes of course.  But the block is artificially time-restricted to be "as fast as possible after creation" (my assumption) so that the weak block ideas spread it out over 10 minutes (rusty's correct comment).
15:26 < PeterR> Agreed.
15:26 < phantomcircuit> rusty, the answer is of course yes, but only if we assume a level of coordination between miners such that they are effectively a single entity
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15:27 < moa> kanzure: excellent point ... taking the converse we could show how decentralised the network is by how much information is being transmitted?
15:27 < kanzure> phantomcircuit: that's a non-statement. your other statements were better. :P
15:27 < PeterR> BSM117532: OK good.  Just going over the basics to find the points of contention.
15:27 < coinoperated> phantomcircuit:   is there a good reason to assume this is not the case?
15:28 < kanzure> moa: no? anyone can voluntarily saturate their bandwidth. that's not interesting.
15:28 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, if miners are cooperating on transaction selection and pre-propagation then they are effectively a single miner and the system has failed
15:28 < moa> kanzure: meaningful information
15:28 < bsm117532> PeterR: if blocks were so big that it takes 10 minutes or more to validate or transmit, you're back to entropy limits.
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15:28 < kanzure> phantomcircuit: huh? i think you mean "if it's mandatory for participation", right?
15:28 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, it *would* be mandatory to participate with sufficiently large block size
15:29 < kanzure> well okay. right, if centralization pressure (whatever the metric is in aggregate) passes some threshold, yea i could see a run-away effect being more pronounced.
15:30 < PeterR> bsm117532: Dr. Nicolas Houy and Andrew Stone (independently) showed that if a miner *expects* that a block would take > 10 min to propagate/verify, that the Nash equilibrium is to not bother mining on it at all.
15:30 < kanzure> PeterR: btw it is not just 50% of the miners that need to receive the block (or instead of 50%, whatever the largest consensus is necessary to achieve for that 10min period or w/e), it's also the validating nodes on the network that need to receive the block
15:31 < PeterR> In other words, if a miner publishes a block that I would expect to take 12 min to verify, then I should immediately orphan it.
15:31 < bsm117532> PeterR: You mean someone else's block that you just received?  That makes sense.
15:31 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, there is no known mechanism for improving block relay which works without coordination between miners in transaction selection
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15:31 < PeterR> kanzure: that point is orthogonal to my question.
15:31 < PeterR> bsm: yes.
15:31 < kanzure> PeterR: perhaps if you only want mining .... but nobody wants only mining. it's useless.
15:31 < maaku> kanzure: I suspect the concerns are separable. By adopting a validation-cost metric with a witness discount, and combining that with probabilistic validation we can remove validation cost as an active concern
15:31 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, and actually thinking about it more as blocks become larger the cost of that coordination would grow non-linearly unless there was a single central entity selecting transactions
15:32 < kanzure> maaku: oh. okay then.
15:32 < bsm117532> PeterR: likewise in the absence of code-imposed artificial restrictions on block size, there's a Nash equilibrium maximum block size that can be computed.
15:32 < maaku> kanzure: then we do something else (e.g. something weak blocks derived) to address bandwidth concerns
15:32 < PeterR> exactly!
15:32 < phantomcircuit> PeterR, are you going to at least re-state the question such that it is fully specified?
15:32 < kanzure> there's no possible way that it's orthogonal to your question unless you don't mean bitcoin mining
15:32 < kanzure> if you don't mean bitcoin mining then you should have said so :-)
15:33 < PeterR> No, because I asked for the "best" answer.
15:33 < maaku> kanzure: i mean both need to be addressed, but not necessarily by the same mechanism
15:33 < phantomcircuit> maaku, weak blocks at best result in a 50% bandwidth reduction (literally best case and unachievable in practice)
15:33 < kanzure> maaku: indeed. limit can be separate from the validation cost metric. seems reasonable to me.
15:33 < bsm117532> PeterR: You're one of those people that writes SAT tests, aren't you...
15:33 < phantomcircuit> PeterR, then your question is intentionally deceptive and you should feel bad
15:34 < PeterR> :P
15:34 < kanzure> i feel bad about almost everyone all the time. so it works out.
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15:34 < maaku> phantomcircuit: by weak blocks I'm including a whole category of things like bitcoin-ng, braids, dag trees, etc.
15:34 < PeterR> The tongue out was at BSM, not you phantomcircuit
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15:34 < maaku> phantomcircuit: that's less about bandwidth reduction so much as not making transmission of the tx data in the critical path for block relay
15:34 < bsm117532> Speaking of which, I'm gonna switch locales and pound out, now that I'm done with company stuff for the day... *sigh*
15:35 < phantomcircuit> maaku, all of those require the transaction data to be sent at least once
15:35 < phantomcircuit> maaku, ok, still doesn't even begin to address initial block synchronization costs
15:35 -!- PeterR [cdfa7ea5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.205.250.126.165] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
15:35 < kanzure> PeterR: "use the same pool" is not the same thing as "use slightly more efficient block propagation techniques"
15:36 < dgenr8> PeterR: you might need to say "does not decrease"
15:36 < maaku> phantomcircuit: yes, but right now in an adversarial case the entire block must be sent within say 30s of the block being found
15:36 < kanzure> wtf he left that's not fair
15:36 < maaku> if we can at least spread that out over the full 10min we could reduce bandwidth requirements by an order of magnitude
15:36 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, i told you it was a trap
15:37 < phantomcircuit> he's a genuinely bad person
15:37 < maaku> but existing ways for doing that (e.g. IBLT, relay network) do not have adversarial guarantees. it's possible an advsarially secure alternative exists with weak blocks, dag trees, etc.
15:37 < phantomcircuit> maaku, uhm... an adversarial miner simply doesn't send their weak blocks
15:37 < kanzure> i am confused as to why phantomcircuit has had to explain adversarial mining to rusty and maaku
15:37 < kanzure> is there an actual disagreement here? what is it.
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15:38 < maaku> kanzure: phantomcircuit is confused about what things like bitcoin-ng are promising
15:38 < smooth> bad person is unfair but i do think his behavior has deteriorated over this conflict
15:38 < smooth> not alone in that either
15:38 < kanzure> he didn't say propagation efficiency improvements aren't promising
15:38 < kanzure> he jsut says they have at most a 50% bandwidth improvement
15:38 < kanzure> 50% is pretty great
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15:39 < coinoperated> the guy gers pilloried in here every time i see his name mentioned.  surprised he even pops in
15:39 < coinoperated> gets
15:39 < kanzure> oh i see, maybe some disagreement about initial block synchronization costs
15:39 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, maaku's point is that their goal is to pre-stage the transaction data to avoid a bandwidth spike when a block is found
15:39 < maaku> kanzure: 50% is great. But I'm more interested in the 2000% improvement it would yield if it make block transmission not dependent on tx relay
15:39 < kanzure> have we been actively monitoring initial block synchronization costs
15:39 < kanzure> because that's sort of something we must not let explode
15:40 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, which i do not believe can be accomplished if a miner with significant hashing power is acting adversarially
15:40 < kanzure> where is the 2000% coming from? why talk about the average case?
15:40 < coinoperated> kanzure:  has there been a DDoS attack built around spurious initial sync requests yet?   seems like such an obvious exploit
15:41 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, he's talking about latency improvements, not total bandwidth reduction
15:41 < kanzure> single packet based on IBLT + weak blocks? that's... look, we're not designing a system where we assume there is agreement.
15:41 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, which is interesting for mining centralization risks; but is completely un-nteresting if you look at the cost to operate a full node
15:41 < phantomcircuit> un-interesting*
15:41 < coinoperated> just keep asking for more sync blocks, never save them to disk.  BottomlessBit
15:41 < kanzure> if we want efficient agreement we know how to do that in centralized models
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15:41 < kanzure> but yea i agree that latency can be improved
15:41 < kanzure> ... in the average case.
15:42 < bramc> Has anybody read and understood this paper https://eprint.iacr.org/2016/035.pdf
15:42 < kanzure> but also, phantomcircuit points out that efficiency improvements might also be centralizing pressures
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15:42 < kanzure> bramc: i haven't looked at that one yet.
15:42 < maaku> kanzure: the design question is can we add consensus rules which punish blocks that include transactions not previously seen
15:42 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, this is yet another point where the optimal strategy for miners and the optimal strategy for regular users are radically different
15:42 < kanzure> bramc: thanks for the link
15:42 < bramc> I'm puzzling over what they're claiming their construction does. It seems to be a single thing which is an either/or between proof of space and proof of time
15:42 < phantomcircuit> for regular system users the optimal strategy is almost always to operate in blocks only mode such that they receive only the block data and maintain nothing in their mempool
15:43 < maaku> kanzure: it is surprising that the answer is not a downright no, but more research is needed
15:43 < phantomcircuit> for miners the optimal strategy is to have all of the transactions possible pre-staged in memory to avoid signature validation and bandwidth costs when a new block is found
15:43 < kanzure> punishment wont work for censorship resistance, unless you can convince miners to somehow commit to transaction details they haven't seen
15:43 < kanzure> also, centralizing pressures around punishment could probably harm low-bandwidth miners
15:44 < maaku> kanzure: my assumptions regarding maximum acceptable blocks is predicated on block relay taking no more than 30s. if you can presume all txns are pre-staged, then you can take the full 10minute block window to relay for a 20x improvement
15:44 < phantomcircuit> the only proposal so far that even attempts to reduce the cost of operating a full node is segregated witness and that only works because we dont validate most of the signatures anyways
15:44 < phantomcircuit> maaku, if that's your metric then you are going to end up overstating what the system is capable of by many hundreds of times
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15:45 < kanzure> yeah i am not sure about that assumption
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15:45 < maaku> kanzure: there's basically two approaches. one is mining policy for a majority of miners to share weak blocks and not build on blocks that diverge too far from the "pre-consensus" the weak blocks established
15:45 < kanzure> there is no such thing as pre-consensus :-)
15:45 < kanzure> that's like a pre-photon
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15:45 < maaku> kanzure: the other is to have a block contain NO transactions, but with a one-use-only signature that they later use to sign the blocks
15:45 -!- zookolaptop [~user@c-73-217-16-2.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
15:45 < maaku> *sign the list of transactions
15:46 < coinoperated> kanzure:  pre-photons conditions exist though
15:46 < kanzure> pre-photon conditions are subject to the same constraints as regular reality
15:46 < kanzure> nsh where are you we need you
15:47 -!- adnn [adnn@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-rtoarwuxhbislier] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:47 < nsh> (certainly not lurking in the scrollback, muttering to himself)
15:48 < phantomcircuit> maaku, even if the cost to relay blocks could be reduced to effectively zero under adversarial conditions the cost to complete initial block synchronization must not be so large that no new participant can complete it
15:48 < maaku> kanzure: ok. imagine that a >50% mining cabal decided to only build on p2pool blocks, and recent p2pool blocks at that
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15:49 < nsh> '<PeterR> In other words, if a miner publishes a block that I would expect to take 12 min to verify, then I should immediately orphan it.'
15:49 < nsh> (game-theory does not work that way)
15:50 < nsh> (the utility of mining on a block is dependent on how others are going to treat it, not your personal calculation)
15:50 < coinoperated> nsh:  isn't this the same thing as saying that calculating a 12 min block time is impossible
15:50 -!- PeterR [cdfa7ea5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.205.250.126.165] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:51 < coinoperated> or any arbitrary verification time estimate
15:51 < PeterR> nsh: that
15:51 < nsh> you can always calculate something that approximates the propagation time, that's just a terribly poor proxy for the decision of other miners to proceed on the tip
15:51 < PeterR> that wasn't my statement
15:51 < nsh> (or wait for a block below the propagation threshold)
15:52 < PeterR> Apparently there's a Nash equilibrium.  Miner's should orphan any block they believe will take longer than 10 min to propagate/verify.
15:52 < nsh> i don't think anyone who is doing mining is even making such assessments, or has the tools so to do, or knows how to make the tools if they wanted them
15:52 < PeterR> *miners
15:52 < PeterR> Nsh: agreed.
15:52 < nsh> well, yes, that's how toy maths works
15:52 < nsh> but the real work depends on what code is running
15:52 < nsh> not what the Nash equilibrium is
15:52 -!- Tiraspol [~Tiraspol3@unaffiliated/tiraspol] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:53 < PeterR> And the code converges to the Nash equilibrium
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15:53  * nsh rolls eyes compassionately 
15:53 < PeterR> As miners learn more
15:53 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r179-25-255-61.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:53 < nsh> it would be good to simulate what happens when blocks are no longer propagating to some kind of node saturation before the expectation time for the next block
15:54 < nsh> that's definitely something to investigate, as empirically as possible
15:54 < PeterR> kanzure: sorry for leaving for a moment.
15:54 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:54 < kanzure> in the absence of anything but mining, it would make sense to say that 50% (or less) of the hashrate needs to receive a block during propagation, but since the network does intentionally have non-mining fully-validating nodes, they also have to receive their money and blocks
15:54 < phantomcircuit> PeterR, i like how you're listening to the channel after you leave
15:54 < PeterR> On my phone
15:54 < PeterR> yes
15:55  * nsh smiles
15:55 < PeterR> No I'm back on my computer
15:55 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:55 < PeterR> phantomcircuit: you can watch the channel here: https://botbot.me/freenode/bitcoin-wizards/
15:56 < coinoperated> nsh:  would it be simpler to just do this with Tx alone, and pretend blocks don't exist, for a naive model.
15:56 < nsh> how do you mean sorry?
15:56 < coinoperated> ultimately even if block prop is "solved"  Tx prop is next
15:57 < PeterR> phantomcircuit: why was my question deceptive?
15:58 < PeterR> Statement: "The expectation value of the time between when a miner solves a block and when 50% of the hash rate has received and validated that block increases with the size of the block mined."
15:58 < coinoperated> nsh:  model bitcoin network as if it propagated Tx without need for consensus mechanism that filters out double spends.  just:  broadcast a Tx, model how fast 51% of the network sees it and can trivially ack to 49%, 48%, 47% that has not seen it.   how long would this take if everyone plays fair
15:59 < phantomcircuit> PeterR, I appreciate that you are giving me the opportunity to educate you on basic logic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma
15:59 < deego> PeterR: doesn't deception start in the very name, "classic"?
15:59 < coinoperated> ofc everyone wont play fair, but assume they do for a start
15:59 < nsh> coinoperated, right
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15:59 < AndChat|435584> coinoperated: in principle tis  is similar to one tx per block
15:59 < deego> you migth as well go a step further and called it "original"
16:00 < deego> call*
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16:00 < PeterR> deego: what does that have to do with block propagation?
16:00 < phantomcircuit> coinoperated, there are essentially two basic strategies for reducing block propagation times
16:00 < phantomcircuit> coinoperated, one is to send the transaction data which is likely to be in the block in advance of the block, such that sending the block is roughly averaged out over the full 10 minute window; these all require the miners to cooperate (obviously)
16:01 < PeterR> Phantomcircuit: agreed
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16:02 < AndChat|435584> O(1) block propagation essentially
16:02 < phantomcircuit> coinoperated, the other is to send transaction data after the block is found, the block simply contains a single key and the miner signs new "mini-block" things; at the very best these schemes are significantly more difficult to reason about and the incentives much less clear
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16:03 < maaku> AndChat|435584: what people incorrectly called O(1) block propagation, yes
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16:03 < phantomcircuit> none of these schemes do anything to address the cost of completing initial block synchronization and as such do not really change the underlying scaling properties of the network
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16:03 < AndChat|435584> maaku: why incorrect?
16:03 < maaku> AndChat|435584: there is overhead
16:03 < AndChat|435584> right
16:03 < phantomcircuit> AndChat|435584, to be clear none of the proposals are O(1), they are at best O(n) where n is the transaction id instead of the transaction data
16:04 < phantomcircuit> but as i keep saying... the best case is a 50% bandwidth reduction
16:04 < maaku> phantomcircuit: if validatoin from genesis is your metric
16:04 < AndChat|435584> phantomcircuit: Even if the mempools are synced?
16:05 < phantomcircuit> maaku, the only metric that matters is validation cost from a trusted point
16:06 < phantomcircuit> the only trusted point at the moment is the genesis block
16:07 < maaku> phantomcircuit: there is room for starting with SPV security from e.g. one year back
16:09 < phantomcircuit> maaku, that wont matter much if transaction rates increase exponentially
16:09 < phantomcircuit> by definition most of the validation cost will be in the part being validated
16:12 < PeterR> phantomcircuit: I still don't understand why you think the statement:
16:12 < PeterR>  "The expectation value of the time between when a miner solves a block and when 50% of the hash rate has received and validated that block increases with the size of the block mined."
16:12 < PeterR> is deceptive
16:13 < PeterR> Apples-to-apples, is it true or false?
16:17 < nsh> it's more true than not true
16:17 < nsh> will that do?
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16:18 < coinoperated> phantomcircuit:  latter one is the generic description of all weak block strategies, right?   ty btw
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16:19 < phantomcircuit> coinoperated, the former is weak blocks, the latter is bitcoin-ng
16:21 < coinoperated> phantomcircuit oh ok I though bitcoin-ng was itself a form of weak block proposal.
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16:23 < dgenr8> PeterR: s/increases/is nondecreasing/
16:23 < PeterR> nsh: are you saying that there are certain apples-to-apples cases where it is not true?
16:25 < PeterR> dgern8: yes I think it would be always true if I said nondecreasing.
16:25 < PeterR> Sounds like nsh thinks it there are apples-to-apples cases where it is not true, if I say "increasing"
16:26 < phantomcircuit> coinoperated, no bitcoin-ng proposes that miners do PoW on a block that contains a signing key and then create mini blocks after that with the signing key until a new miner finds a PoW block
16:26 < phantomcircuit> coinoperated, it complicates the incentives for a number of reasons
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16:27 < nsh> it's just not a linear relationship and one should be cautious suggesting it is beyond the regime in which that is a fair approximation. it's a nonlinear relationship that's monotonic until you reach a point where either logic or human behaviour changes result, imposing nonlineararity and unpredictability
16:28 < nsh> *changes as a result
16:28 < PeterR> increasing does not mean linear
16:28 < nsh> i know
16:28 < PeterR> t^2, log(t) are increasing functions
16:28 < nsh> common people read between the lines. bad people write between the lines
16:28 < nsh> :)
16:29 < PeterR> Sounds like you think the statement is true then, as long as it is clarified that increasing != linear.
16:29 < PeterR> Yes?
16:30 < nsh> the problem, and i may be assuming a lot, is that the way the question is phrased makes it sound like a point in a larger argument, and i can just foresee that larger argument being predicated on an assumption of simplified behaviour that doesn't hold
16:30 < nsh> and that would be bad
16:30 < nsh> but it's true enough with whatever caveats you think are appropriate. where you take it matters more :)
16:31 < nsh> (of course i'm probably just jaded and cynical because i've observed a lot of poor arguments based on seemingly reasonable observations, by virtue of being alive and paying attention for a few decades)
16:31 < kanzure> nsh: http://pastebin.com/jFgkk8M3 (read this very carefully)
16:32 < kanzure> (re: assumptions)
16:32 < coinoperated> phantomcircuit, OIC.  Sort of a HAM mode for PoW,  get more Tx per 10 minute consensus frame than normally possible by spreading them out, chained to a base block
16:33 < nsh> (it seems inevitable that we will move eventually to spread out the network block load, through some mechanism that or another)
16:33 < nsh> (segwit seems as good as any other to me, but i'm not remotely authoritative)
16:34 < PeterR> Personally, I like weak blocks / subchains.
16:34 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:34 < PeterR> But I'm interested to learn more about bsm's work on braids / DAGs
16:35 < nsh> if you just reason in terms of the utility/urgency of network communications between nodes, there's a large spike at block discovery. that is not required by the cryptographic nor incentive system
16:35 < nsh> it's just a byproduct of how those were wed initially
16:35 < phantomcircuit> of course you would like something that only works under non-adversarial conditions
16:35 < maaku> guys let's be civil
16:35 < nsh> +1
16:35 < PeterR> agreed.  We slowly build up the block over the full 10 min.
16:35 < PeterR> *should
16:36 < phantomcircuit> maaku, why? he's obviously trying to get an out of context quote for something
16:36 < kanzure> maaku: talking about adversarial conditions is civil
16:36 < phantomcircuit> i see no reason to treat someone with any respect who is so obviously being manipulative
16:36 < PeterR> I assume you're referring to me.  How am I being manipulative?
16:36 < kanzure> what disrespect has been shown? it's highly respectful to remember someone's previous behavior and assumptions and falsities.
16:37 -!- Tiraspol [~Tiraspol3@unaffiliated/tiraspol] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:37 < PeterR> I am trying to understand the way certain people here think about block propagation.
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16:37 < kanzure> does that include full node block propagation?
16:38 < PeterR> Specifically, I was interested in a true/false answer to the statement:
16:38 < PeterR> "The expectation value of the time between when a miner solves a block and when 50% of the hash rate has received and validated that block increases with the size of the block mined."
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16:39 < PeterR> Sounds like is we clarify that increase != linear, then people agree the answer is TRUE (apples-to-apples)
16:39 < kanzure> yes he is saying it is manipulative because you have failed to share broader context and other assumptions
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16:41 < moa> it is a slippery tactic that has been used repeatedly, particularly when then refusing or disassembling later when challenged about omitted assumptions
16:41 < PeterR> This is how we would explain it in physics:  we place an observe near all miners on the network, each observer has a synchronized clock.  We observe the network produce a great number of blocks and measure the results.
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16:41 < phantomcircuit> PeterR, it is deceptive to request a true/false answer to a question for which neither true nor false is an appropriate answer
16:41 < PeterR> Will the empirical answer be TRUE or FALSE?
16:42 < moa> is PeterR TRUE or FALSE ... you decide
16:42 < phantomcircuit> oh i see you have gathered some data and are looking to show how stupid we are
16:42 < moa> it is FOX news level discussion
16:42 < PeterR> Clearly there would be an answer, phantomcircuit.
16:42 < phantomcircuit> maaku, i dont think my previous statement that he's a bad person is strong enough
16:42 < phantomcircuit> PeterR, you're a terrible human being
16:43 < MrHodl> ^
16:43 < PeterR> Because my questions and comments force you to re-think your assumptions?
16:44 < phantomcircuit> no because you have clearly gathered data which shows the answer to be either true or false under the current network conditions and are looking to gather answers to the question such that you can discredit people without acknowledging that your data does not cover more adversarial network conditions
16:44 < moa> you are now going to draw an absolute conclusion form your spherical cow analysis, say that bitcoin-wizards "agreed" and then make a pretty coloured gif animation and post it all over the forums for dramatic effect ... we know how this movie ends
16:44 < bsm1175321> Are you guys still arguing this?  I just thought it was a bit deceptive because of the word "best" when there are multiple valid answers, depending on your assumptions...
16:45 < PeterR> This is science; we ask questions and run experiments to answer them.  The outcome of an experiment is the ultimate arbtrar.
16:46 < PeterR> bsm1175321: I clarified the thought experiment:  You place an observe with a synchronized clock near each miner and observe thousands of blocks while making measurements.
16:46 < moa> expect you are cherry-picking analysis and data to support you pre-determind outcomes ... that's called pseudo-science
16:46 < moa> s/except/expect
16:46 < PeterR> What data?
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16:46 < phantomcircuit> PeterR, True or False, Larger blocks result in a super-linear increase in the cost of joining the bitcoin peer-to-peer network
16:47 < PeterR> Apples to apples, I would say true.
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16:47 < PeterR> If by join you mean verifying the entire blockchain.
16:48 < maaku> I think we should all try to be professional here. If someone is asking a legitimately on-topic question relevant to the discussion at hand, and it is not inappropriately loaded or framed, I'd prefer that we engage with good intentions.
16:48 < maaku> For example recent events have certainly given me some negative emotion towards Gavin, yet he showed up recently asking about cost metrics and I helpfully pointed him towards nickler and instagibbs.
16:48 < bsm1175321> ^^^^^ maaku
16:48 < maaku> Turns out he just wanted to make sure segwit was using an updated metric, but if I assumed it was something XT related I'm sure things would have gone sour unnecessarily.
16:49 < bsm1175321> hear hear
16:49 < phantomcircuit> maaku, i agree; but his original question was clearly loaded
16:49 < coinoperated> i was about to ask what join means, but, hmm..
16:49 < zookolaptop> Hooray for professionalism and tolerance.
16:50 < PeterR> phantomcircuit: by the way, I haven't gathered any data as you suspected.  I am trying to figure out how certain people think about block propagation.
16:50 < phantomcircuit> coinoperated, the purpose of the question was to demonstrate that an under specified question requiring a true/false is not useful
16:50 < eamonnw> is that called a false dichotomy?
16:50 < phantomcircuit> coinoperated, you'll notice that he qualified his answer by first specifying what he defined as "joining the network"
16:50 < phantomcircuit> eamonnw, yes
16:54 < phantomcircuit> PeterR, frankly i do not believe you; that being said
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16:56 < moa> phantomcircuit: I don't believe him either ... he has argued in bad faith on multiple forums for too long to be trusted a priori
16:56 < phantomcircuit> "The expectation value of the time between when a miner solves a block and when 50% of the hash rate has received and validated that block increases with the size of the block mined; unless a single entity performs transaction selection for more than 50% of the hashing power." is True (and maybe it's the selfish mining threshold and not 50%)
16:57 < PeterR> Thanks for answering.
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17:24 < nsh> (even this assumes, e.g. that there is no propagation-affecting mechanism being run by nodes/miners on the basis of blocksize. there's no reason a priori to believe that larger blocks will be relayed differently, but there's not much more reason to assume they won't, especially as saturation starts to affect behaviour as people try to compensate/game the resultant instability)
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17:31 < PeterR> Alright, thanks for everyone's time. Have a good night.
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17:46 < kanzure> "the outcome of an experiment is the ultimate arbitrar" that's not how science works
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17:51 < Taek> I think it will end up being possible to establish "preconsensus" in adversarial modes. If someone strays too far from preconsensus, you ignore their blocks. And if full nodes commit their txns to preconsensus structures (like weak blocks), you get full nodes that can participate in the transaction selection process without needing mining hardware
17:52 < Taek> at that point it's less preconsensus and more consensus around a whitelist of transactions
17:52 < Taek> the whitelist is allowed to contain double spends
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17:52 < Taek> and uncertain ordering
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17:53 < Taek> and then the full block finalizes the whitelist in to a single, ordered, nonconflicting set of transactions
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17:54 < instagibbs> can you give an example of non-mining pre-consensus?
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17:55 < Taek> most of my ideas involve weak blocks. Anything else I can think of is somehow permissioned
17:55 < Taek> i.e., NG
17:55 < instagibbs> hashcash rules everything around you
17:55 < instagibbs> ah yeah sure NG fits that
17:55 < Taek> hashcash is a great way to ratelimit things without needing identity :)
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18:22 < phantomcircuit> Taek, i've yet to see a proposal for pre-staging of transactions which credibly provides an incentive to actually use the mechanism
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18:23 < Taek> phantomcircuit: for sufficiently small miners, increased propagation speed is incentive enough, isn't it? (granted, we don't have an ecosystem of 'sufficiently small miners', but still)
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18:28 < phantomcircuit> Taek, the incentive must exceed the advantage for miners larger than 33%
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18:32 < Taek> if miners refuse to acknowledge blocks that don't leverage preconsensus, then there is incentive. You have to be careful though that you don't introduce subjectivity
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18:34 < phantomcircuit> Taek, there's no guarantee of a weak block, so you cannot use them in consensus enforcement
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18:36 < maaku> phantomcircuit  handwave, miners could preferentially not build on blocks violating the pre-consensus, weighted by how much they differ, at least getting us back to 50% security, or 33% with active withholding
18:36 < maaku> Handwave again
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18:37 < phantomcircuit> maaku, me thinks there's too much handwaving there :P
18:38 < Taek> phantomcircuit: if there are no weak blocks, you could just enforce that the block size be 0
18:38 < Taek> more realistically, you'd leverage weak blocks from the previous N strong blocks, and there'd be little chance of 0 weak blocks in total
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18:45 < ryan-c> maaku: yes, first 200 bits of private key (are zero)
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18:47 < kanzure> would it make sense to not reward miners for mining a merged-mined chain? e.g. zero subsidy on the merged-mined chain.
18:47 < ryan-c> maaku: in some cases, more than that.
18:47 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, why?
18:48 < kanzure> phantomcircuit: trying to think of how to do a hard-fork without double minting. you know, plausibly-safe-ways to do a hard-fork or sidechain or merged mined chain that doesn't completely destroy everything.
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18:49 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, the extension blocks thing adam3us mentioned
18:49 < phantomcircuit> basically sidechain merged mined and enforced
18:50 < kanzure> yep that's right, don't know what i was thinking.
18:50 < kanzure> oh right, it's not a hard-fork.
18:52 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, at this point i really dont see any strong argument for doing a hard fork... ever
18:53 < kanzure> security emergencies
18:54 < bsm1175321> phantomcircuit: The number of UTXO's that will ever fit in a 1MB block is fixed.  1MB/10min will forever limit the scalability of bitcoin.  A hard fork will be necessary eventually.
18:54 < kanzure> phantomcircuit: other thing to point out is that a hard-fork for changing, say, block size, actually upgrades the capacity of the hard-forked chain, not the original chain :-).
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18:54 < bsm1175321> phantomcircuit: even if every tx in the 1MB block was pay-to-any and everything else hidden, the tx rate is still way too low for worldwide domination.
18:54 < kanzure> bsm1175321: there's a number of alternatives on the horizon, such as segwit for zero-conf smart contract transactions, which allow for massive scalability of zero-conf transactions with non-zero security
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18:55 < kanzure> bsm1175321: also, there are handwavy moon math methods to have a blockchain theoretically grow sublinearly over time instead of linearly or higher.... so i don't think your assumption is correct.
18:56 < bsm1175321> kanzure: handwavy moon math refs?
18:56 < Taek> security emergencies are a good reason to hardfork without warning. But then that also means that nobody is going to be sleeping for at least a week
18:56 < bsm1175321> And thank you for being our de-facto librarian!  ;-)
18:57 < kanzure> Taek: sha256 broken would be an amazing reason to lose sleep over, it would be my privilege
18:57 < maaku> ryan-c I would not have said what those bits are on an open channel
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18:57 < kanzure> bsm1175321: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/bitcoin/scalingbitcoin-review.pdf
18:58 < kanzure> 10:06 < ryan-c`> Anyone know of a faster-than-brute-force attack on secp256k1 when the first ~200 are known and a signature is available?
18:58 < kanzure> 10:09 < ryan-c`> (replies may be directed to ryan-c)
18:59  * bsm1175321 comforts kanzure for having to explain big-o notation...
18:59 < ryan-c> maaku: The wallets are already empty.
19:00 < bsm1175321> kanzure: you weren't at scaling bitcoin II were you?
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19:00 < ryan-c> maaku: If they had BTC in them I'd be more subtle.
19:00 < kanzure> i was watching you and judging you the whole time
19:01 < bsm1175321> bastard.  You should have introduced yourself.  :-P
19:01 < kanzure> i was on the interwebs. not in person.
19:01 < bsm1175321> Booo electronic tubes.
19:02 < bsm1175321> So, moon math aside, old nodes must see, at a minimum, address and balance for every utxo.  This implies a scaling limit. Moon math implies payment channels?
19:02 < ryan-c> maaku: Mind if I PM you?
19:02 < maaku> Sure
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19:11 < phantomcircuit> bsm1175321, extension blocks as a soft fork essentially increase the size of the block without forcing current users to move to new software
19:12 < phantomcircuit> personally i do not want to be even a little responsible for someone losing money because everybody else has moved to a new chain
19:12 < bsm1175321> phantomcircuit: That is not a soft fork.  Old nodes do not have a full utxo set.
19:12 < bsm1175321> You have to know that the recipient has upgraded their wallet, communicating node.
19:12 < phantomcircuit> bsm1175321, extension blocks are essentially a sidechain which is enforced in the main consensus by "upgraded" nodes
19:13 < phantomcircuit> bsm1175321, that's true, but coordinating with the recipient on which extension blocks they support is systemically easier than literally everybody moving to a new chain
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19:14 < bsm1175321> Oh, that mechanism.  There are many ideas about extension blocks.
19:15 < bsm1175321> I don't fully understand that... who holds the keys for the extension block UTXO?  Are they publicly distributed to upgraded nodes?
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19:16 < phantomcircuit> bsm1175321, keys?
19:16 < phantomcircuit> bsm1175321, the extension block is merged mined at 1:1 difficulty with bitcoin
19:17 < bsm1175321> Bailing-in to an e.g. CLTV locked txn requires a key, no?
19:17 < bsm1175321> Otherwise the old node can't validate it.
19:17 < bsm1175321> Or is it an anyone-can-pay situation?
19:18 < phantomcircuit> bsm1175321, it would look like anyone-can-spend
19:18 < maaku> bsm1175321 for the record, that's the only extension block propoaal
19:18 < phantomcircuit> but actually can only be spent if the extension block allows
19:18 < bsm1175321> maaku: I admit to not having studied it or understand it.
19:18 < bsm1175321> Ok cool, will look.
19:18 < bsm1175321> Where is the proposal?
19:19 < maaku> There are many other misconceptions about what extension blocks are, but all actual proposals involve segregated utxo sets
19:20 < bramc> Uh... what are extension blocks?
19:22 < phantomcircuit> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-May/008356.html
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19:24 < bramc> phantomcircuit, Ah that, thanks
19:27 < bsm1175321> FWIW, we all need to make more noise about segregated utxo sets, and the possibility to soft-fork capacity increases.
19:27 < bsm1175321> I'm fucking tired of this hard-fork debate.
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19:29 < kanzure> bramc: extension blocks are also mentioned here, in a summary post about different soft-fork types, http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/012173.html
19:29 < bramc> bsm117532 classic seems to view making a hard fork as a value unto itself, absent any technical justification whatsoever
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19:30 < bsm1175321> bramc: I think people don't understand the nuances, and want desperately to see a capacity increase.  A commitment by core to an expansion block mechanism (regardless of what's in that expansion block or how it's created) would help.
19:31 < kanzure> they have been shown many non-hard-fork capacity increases, so i would submit to you, bsm1175321, that their concern is not actually about capacity increases :)
19:31 < bsm1175321> kanzure: This topic is far more than a non-software-dev can reasonably absorb, I would submit.
19:31 < bramc> bsm117532 But capacity increases can have very negative consequences: Fewer full nodes, lower mining rewards
19:31 < bsm1175321> bramc: That's better than forking non-upgraded nodes off the chain, no?
19:31 < kanzure> bsm1175321: (indeed i would say that their concerns are actually the result of too much technical explanation, and not enough soft explanation, but this is quickly becoming off-topic for this channel)
19:32 < bsm1175321> kanzure: Happy to go to bitcoin-dev or elsewhere, this is clearly near term.
19:32 < kanzure> bsm1175321: how about pm?
19:32 < bsm1175321> sure
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--- Log closed Wed Jan 20 00:00:10 2016