--- Log opened Wed Jan 20 00:00:10 2016 00:05 -!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has quit [] 00:05 -!- jonasschnelli [~jonasschn@unaffiliated/jonasschnelli] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:07 -!- jonasschnelli [~jonasschn@2a01:4f8:200:7025::2] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:13 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:13 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:17 -!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:17 -!- IAmNotDorian [~OrphanedG@97.84.216.139.dynamic.dsl.dv.iprimus.net.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:17 -!- IAmNotDorian [~OrphanedG@97.84.216.139.dynamic.dsl.dv.iprimus.net.au] has quit [Changing host] 00:17 -!- IAmNotDorian [~OrphanedG@unaffiliated/orphanedgland] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:19 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:27 -!- tjader [~tjader@189.60.215.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:31 -!- tjader [~tjader@189.60.215.244] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:35 -!- jouke [~jouke@a83-163-42-163.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Changing host] 00:35 -!- jouke [~jouke@unaffiliated/komkommer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:37 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:38 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 00:41 -!- maaku [~quassel@botbot.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:41 -!- maaku is now known as Guest99685 00:41 -!- Guest99685 is now known as maaku 00:46 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:51 < Taek> What if... instead of giving transaction fees to the miner, you threw transaction fees into the void. Then, the amount of work that needed to be done by the block was decreased proportional to the amount of coins thrown away. This financially incentivizes the miner, but decreases the total revenue available to miners. Less revenue means less room for economies-of-scale sized mining operations, which might mean greater decentralization. It will 00:51 < Taek> definitely mean less POW on the chain though. 00:53 < smooth> and when the subsidy runs out? 00:53 < Taek> But, I might prefer a mining ecosystem that had 10x the miners and 1/10th the POW security. 00:53 < smooth> oh i know, negative difficulty :) 00:53 < Taek> when the subsidy runs out you give up :) 00:53 < smooth> pretty much my view anyway 00:55 < Taek> you could allow fees, and then have throwing away fees be worth some function of the number of fees thrown away vs. the total number of fees in the block, such that the optimal point means a miner is taking both transactions with fees and transactions that throw away fees. 00:56 < Taek> A related construction would allow transactions with POW in them to reduce the amount of POW needed in the block. This means someone has to do the POW on the txn in real time, but might encourage a bunch of users to get mini-miners or something 00:56 < smooth> why would a miner care between taking fees and lower difficulty ? seems the same to me 00:56 < Taek> if the reward is 0 then there's no reason to elimiate work. 00:56 -!- rustyn_ [~rustyn@unaffiliated/rustyn] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:57 < smooth> i thought we'd already given up on that :) 00:57 < Taek> At lower bounds, there's clearly a reason to take fees over work reduction 00:57 -!- rustyn [~rustyn@unaffiliated/rustyn] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:58 < smooth> the pow in tx is potentially interesting though. running numbers on it seems hard to have non-delegated pow on mobile though 00:58 < smooth> considering that an entire battery charge on a phone is like 1/10 cent 00:59 < Taek> and the people doing POW on their transactions still don't get to influence what other transactions the miner chooses to put into a block, which has become a bit of a holy grail for me 00:59 -!- stevenroose_ [~stevenroo@2a02:2c40:400:b000::1:9fa0] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:59 < Taek> I recently realized that miners are untrusted entities, and since that moment I've taken an interest in finding ways to limit their power or strongly incentive specific actions 01:02 < smooth> miners are untrusted in so far as either there are no thin clients or the half baked fraud proof scheme actually works entirely 01:03 -!- p15x [~p15x@52.91.145.64.client.static.strong-tk2.bringover.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:04 -!- p15 [~p15@127.91.145.64.client.static.strong-tk2.bringover.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:04 < smooth> if everybody waits a long time to accept payments, that's good enough for *individual* miners to not be trusted 01:05 -!- andy-logbot [~bitcoin--@wpsoftware.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:05 -!- andy-logbot [~bitcoin--@wpsoftware.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:05 * andy-logbot is logging 01:05 -!- p15 [~p15@100.91.145.64.client.static.strong-tk2.bringover.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:08 -!- rishobot [~quassel@c-73-252-176-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:08 < Taek> miners can still censor transactions 01:09 < MRL-Relay> [smooth] collectively yes 01:10 < smooth> assuming insufficient motivation for new mining entrants 01:11 -!- kinlo [peter@unaffiliated/kinlo] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:13 -!- kabaum [~kalle@h-13-35.a163.priv.bahnhof.se] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 01:13 < Taek> they'd do it the same way you'd do a soft-fork. If miners decide that they want a soft-fork, there's not much full nodes can do to fight back besides dump the price. 01:13 -!- kabaum [~kalle@h-13-35.a163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:13 < Taek> especially when basically all of China is one coherent entitiy, that's not exactly comforting 01:13 < smooth> mostly agree 01:13 -!- stevenroose_ [~stevenroo@2a02:2c40:400:b000::1:9fa0] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:13 < smooth> but there is a bit of a fallacy of composition here 01:13 < smooth> "miners" is not an entity 01:14 < Taek> they do have to make a collective decision, and I do find it much less likely that they'd collectively make an evil decision, even when there are only 10 of them. But if government, police, or military pressure starts to appear, that might change. 01:15 < smooth> there also have to not be other potential entrants willing to enter 01:15 < smooth> and there indeed may not be, but that is a requirement 01:19 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:28 -!- kang_ [2d7fc076@gateway/web/freenode/ip.45.127.192.118] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:29 -!- Piper-Off is now known as Monthrect 01:37 -!- teslax [~teslax@80-110-44-54.static.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:43 -!- teslax [~teslax@80-110-44-54.static.surfer.at] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:51 -!- guruvan [~guruvan@unaffiliated/guruvan] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:54 -!- BananaLotus [~BananaLot@54.186.186.141] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:58 -!- risho [~quassel@c-73-252-176-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:21 -!- kinlo [peter@unaffiliated/kinlo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:26 -!- kinlo 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now known as Piper-Off 09:16 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-228-102-98.ip191.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Client Quit] 09:16 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-228-102-98.ip191.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:19 -!- NLNico [~NLNico@unaffiliated/nlnico] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:20 -!- Emcy [~MC@cpc3-swan1-0-0-cust996.7-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:20 -!- Emcy [~MC@cpc3-swan1-0-0-cust996.7-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Changing host] 09:20 -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:20 -!- conner [~conner@40.98.62.94.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:22 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:24 -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.39.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:24 -!- phiche [~Adium@193.89.191.214] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:25 -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.186.26] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:26 -!- conner [~conner@40.98.62.94.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:27 -!- tjader [~tjader@189.60.215.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:32 -!- tjader [~tjader@189.60.215.244] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:36 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-228-102-98.ip191.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:37 -!- Piper-Off is now known as Monthrect 09:39 < instagibbs> zookolaptop, congrats on the unveiling of zcash. Looking forward to hearing about the latest tech 09:40 < zookolaptop> instagibbs: thanks! 09:40 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:41 -!- mihar [~mihar@4.16.87.162] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:47 -!- Tomiii [~Tommiii@garza.riseup.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:48 -!- nonaTure [~happy@94.155.72.86] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:49 -!- brg444 [18257df2@gateway/web/freenode/session] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:51 -!- conner [~conner@40.98.62.94.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:52 < kanzure> Taek: welp, it would particularly suck to throw away "erroneous" transaction fees, into the void, e.g. no more "oops i sent you 250 BTC as a transaction fee" recovery stories. 09:53 < kanzure> Taek: so was this transaction fees thrown away only, or the entire subsidy? 09:54 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-228-102-98.ip191.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:56 < waxwing> zookolaptop: the forum link at the bottom of your blog post has a dangling '.' 09:57 < zookolaptop> waxwing: thanks! 09:59 < waxwing> zookolaptop: has the need for special setup as in earlier designs been avoided? 10:02 < instagibbs> I'm more interested in the finit-size accumulator 10:03 -!- MoALTz [~no@78-11-180-214.static.ip.netia.com.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:04 -!- zookolaptop [~user@2601:281:8001:26aa:4082:cc6c:6b05:4bd0] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:05 < kanzure> where is the zcash-dev mailing list? 10:05 -!- melvster1 [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:06 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-228-102-98.ip191.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:07 -!- Guest43031 [~luigi1112@static-216-176-69-170.consolidated.net] has quit [Changing host] 10:07 -!- Guest43031 [~luigi1112@unaffiliated/luigi1111] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:07 -!- Guest43031 is now known as luigi1111w 10:12 -!- hashtagg_ [~hashtag@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:14 -!- zookolaptop [~user@c-73-217-16-2.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:14 -!- zookolaptop [~user@c-73-217-16-2.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:15 -!- wpalczynski_ [sid55851@gateway/web/irccloud.com/session] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:15 -!- zookolaptop [~user@c-73-217-16-2.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:16 -!- nonaTure1 [~happy@94.155.72.86] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:16 -!- warren_ [~warren@fedora/wombat/warren] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:16 -!- deego1 [~user@unaffiliated/deego] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:17 -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has quit [Disconnected by services] 10:17 -!- petertod1 [~pete@ec2-52-5-185-120.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:17 -!- OxADADA_ [~OxADADA@alumni-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:17 -!- [7] [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:17 -!- ShadeS_ [shades@milliways.ramdrive.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:17 -!- azariah_ [~azariah@Tricholoma.Update.UU.SE] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:17 -!- lclc_ is now known as lclc 10:17 -!- sdaftuar_ [~sdaftuar@static-100-38-11-146.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:17 -!- morcos_ [~morcos@static-100-38-11-146.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:18 -!- melvster1 [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:20 -!- jl2012_ [uid133844@unaffiliated/jl2012] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:21 -!- stevenroose|BNC [stevenroos@bnc1.sollidi.us] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:22 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: warren, morcos, deego, stevenroose, ShadeS, wpalczynski, sdaftuar, binaryFate, adlai, nonaTure, (+6 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 10:22 -!- jl2012_ is now known as jl2012 10:22 -!- stevenroose|BNC is now known as stevenroose 10:22 -!- sipi [~sipi@165.64.broadband12.iol.cz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:22 < kanzure> setup procedures don't seem to be described https://github.com/Electric-Coin-Company/zcash/blob/293e4f015b811a03e4059cab38c92e7b42978bcc/zcutil/fetch-params.sh 10:24 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:25 -!- Netsplit over, joins: Tenhi 10:25 < waxwing> kanzure: is there some kind of paper for zcash, do you know? 10:25 < zookolaptop> There are two relevant papers. 10:25 < kanzure> there are many papers about zerocoin things. 10:25 < zookolaptop> Unofrtunately only one is linked from https://z.cash/tech.html at the moment. 10:25 < zookolaptop> We're busy updating the site right now. 10:25 < zookolaptop> I haven't even had time to read the Wired article yet! 10:25 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/snarks/SNARKs%20for%20C:%20Verifying%20program%20executions%20succinctly%20and%20in%20zero%20knowledge.pdf 10:25 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/Zerocash:%20Decentralized%20anonymous%20payments%20from%20Bitcoin%20(extended%20version)%20-%202014-05-18.pdf 10:26 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/Zerocoin:%20anonymous%20distributed%20e-cash%20from%20bitcoin.pdf 10:26 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/zerocash-extended-20140518.pdf 10:26 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/zerocash-oakland2014.pdf 10:26 -!- Tromer [4d7d9e84@gateway/web/freenode/session] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:27 < WyzBTC1> What is this zcash 10:27 -!- sdaftuar_ is now known as sdaftuar 10:27 < kanzure> and this is sorta relevant http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/snarks/Secure%20sampling%20of%20public%20parameters%20for%20succinct%20zero%20knowledge%20proofs.pdf 10:27 < r0ach> the wired article basically says it's a narco money laundering applicatoin which will result in "more sex slaves being sold" or something or other 10:27 < zookolaptop> kanzure: that's the one I was thinking of! Thanks. 10:27 < zookolaptop> r0ach: shit. I'm glad I don't have time to read it then. ☹ 10:28 < zookolaptop> Does it mention rhino poaching? 10:28 < waxwing> so do i understand that the paper linked here (the zerocash technical paper): http://zerocash-project.org/paper is what we should read? 10:28 < r0ach> yes, it does actually 10:28 < zookolaptop> HAHA 10:28 < kanzure> your server is slow, dropped to 2 MB/sec for your massive mpc setup common reference string key thing 10:29 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:29 -!- nabu [~nabu@172.98.67.113] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:29 -!- adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:32 -!- Oizopower [uid19103@gateway/web/irccloud.com/session] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:32 -!- zookolaptop [~user@c-73-217-16-2.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:33 -!- Oizopower [uid19103@gateway/web/irccloud.com/session] has quit [Client Quit] 10:34 -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@dhcp-18-111-16-180.dyn.MIT.EDU] has quit [Quit: GGuyZ] 10:34 -!- Oizopower [uid19103@gateway/web/irccloud.com/session] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:34 -!- zookolaptop [~user@c-73-217-16-2.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:34 -!- nabu [~nabu@172.98.67.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:35 -!- nabu [~nabu@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/nabu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:35 -!- wpalczynski_ is now known as wpalczynski 10:35 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: Oizopower, Tenhi 10:36 -!- Netsplit over, joins: Oizopower 10:36 -!- zookolaptop [~user@c-73-217-16-2.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:37 -!- zookolaptop [~user@c-73-217-16-2.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:37 < ebfull> kanzure: those keys are not MPC, MPC will have to come in a few months after those papers are revised and the code is completed 10:37 -!- nuke1989 [~nuke@46.198.192.230] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:37 -!- Tenhi [~tenhi@static.100.25.4.46.clients.your-server.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:38 < zmanian_> My mental model is that being able to trade in and out of a full fungible currency like zcash will increase the effective fungibility of bitcoin, et al. Effectively asking as a fully trust worthy coin mixer assuming reasonably liquidity. 10:39 < zmanian_> *asking = acting as 10:39 -!- nabu [~nabu@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/nabu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:40 < fluffypony> zmanian_: no, moving in and out currently requires trusted third-parties 10:40 < fluffypony> so there's no more advantage for Bitcoin, at least no more than using Monero for that purpose 10:40 < fluffypony> JoinMarket does a much better job of adding privacy to Bitcoin than Monero or ZeroCash 10:41 -!- T23WS [~textual@78.129.233.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:44 -!- nabu [~nabu@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/nabu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:46 < zmanian_> fuffypony: Thinking about the differences between ledger analysis can deanonymize you vs your counter parties can deanonymize you 10:47 < MRL-Relay> [othe] as long as the main chain does not provide you any privacy it´s questionable; and miners can still censor transactions etc 10:48 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: Tenhi 10:48 -!- Netsplit over, joins: Tenhi 10:49 -!- veleiro [~veleiro@fsf/member/veleiro] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:49 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:54 -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@dhcp-18-111-16-180.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:54 -!- raedah [~raedah@mc90536d0.tmodns.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:57 -!- tjader [~tjader@189.60.215.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:58 -!- brg444 [18257df2@gateway/web/freenode/session] has quit [Changing host] 10:58 -!- brg444 [18257df2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.37.125.242] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:58 -!- wpalczynski [sid55851@gateway/web/irccloud.com/session] has quit [Changing host] 10:58 -!- wpalczynski [sid55851@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mijblurjlbsmuaur] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:59 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: Tenhi 10:59 -!- jl2012 [uid133844@unaffiliated/jl2012] has quit [Changing host] 10:59 -!- jl2012 [uid133844@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-khnquzktwnpmejha] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:59 -!- Tromer [4d7d9e84@gateway/web/freenode/session] has quit [Changing host] 10:59 -!- Tromer [4d7d9e84@gateway/web/freenode/ip.77.125.158.132] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:59 -!- Oizopower [uid19103@gateway/web/irccloud.com/session] has quit [Changing host] 10:59 -!- Oizopower [uid19103@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ebkdwqhgggmzlklv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:00 -!- Netsplit over, joins: Tenhi 11:01 -!- morcos_ is now known as morcos 11:02 -!- tjader [~tjader@189.60.215.244] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:03 -!- mihar [~mihar@4.16.87.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:06 -!- Erik_dc [~erik@d54C620ED.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:07 -!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:08 -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@dhcp-18-111-16-180.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: GGuyZ] 11:09 -!- mihar [~mihar@4.16.87.162] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:09 -!- mihar [~mihar@4.16.87.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:10 -!- mihar [~mihar@4.16.87.162] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:14 -!- veleiro [~veleiro@fsf/member/veleiro] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:14 -!- warren_ is now known as warren 11:15 -!- unlord_ is now known as unlord 11:21 -!- atgreen [~green@rrcs-23-246-114-91.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:23 -!- jposner [~jposner@172.98.67.30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:25 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:27 -!- phiche [~Adium@2.68.10.44.mobile.tre.se] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:27 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:32 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 11:41 -!- zookolaptop [~user@c-73-217-16-2.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:44 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:46 -!- MrChrisJ [~MrChrisJ@cpc73828-dals21-2-0-cust929.20-2.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:52 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:57 -!- chjj_ [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:02 < nwilcox> fluffypony> zmanian_: no, moving in and out currently requires trusted third-parties 12:02 -!- AndChat|435584 [~AndChat43@45.127.192.118] has quit [Quit: Bye] 12:02 < nwilcox> What's the status of atomic cross chain swaps? I had the impression that mechanism works today with Bitcoin, except for potential malleability issues. 12:02 -!- AndChat|435584 [~AndChat43@45.127.192.118] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:03 < nwilcox> -and some of CLTV, CSV, and/or segwit will fix the lingering issues. 12:04 -!- frankenmint [~frankenmi@174-25-38-39.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:04 -!- markus-k [~markus-k@p549953DC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 12:06 -!- zookolaptop [~user@c-71-229-205-98.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:12 -!- atgreen [~green@rrcs-23-246-114-91.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:17 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:18 -!- binaryFate [~binaryFat@2a02:2788:9a6:71a:b596:a928:5dea:7897] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:18 -!- mihar [~mihar@4.16.87.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:18 -!- Tomiii [~Tommiii@garza.riseup.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:19 -!- vdo [~vdo1138@unaffiliated/vdo] has quit [Quit: hopp!] 12:20 -!- voxelot [~voxelot@unaffiliated/voxelot] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:21 < pigeons> nwilcox: all i know are the scripts from amiller and TierNolan. Then sergio lerner was going to do a whole project or exchange with something similar, but that seemed to go away 12:21 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:22 < maaku> nwilcox: atomic cross chain swaps works today, yes 12:23 < fluffypony> I would've added "right now" to the end of that, but I thought it was implicit 12:25 -!- Logicwax [~Logicwax@c-76-126-174-152.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:26 -!- Logicwax [~Logicwax@c-76-126-174-152.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:26 < nwilcox> I guess even with ACCS there's a coordination problem that is only served by third parties today (eg: no third-party-free order book). 12:27 -!- tjader [~tjader@189.60.215.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:28 -!- MrChrisJ [~MrChrisJ@cpc73828-dals21-2-0-cust929.20-2.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: MrChrisJ] 12:28 -!- r0ach [~r0ach@107-217-214-192.lightspeed.jcvlfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 12:28 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: binaryFate 12:32 -!- tjader [~tjader@189.60.215.244] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:32 < pigeons> put the orders in a dht 12:32 < pigeons> can you say dht in this channel again? 12:35 < helo> dht 12:36 < fluffypony> just put the orders on the blockchain! 12:36 < pigeons> need to pull request "classic" if they've thought of switching to a dht 12:38 < fluffypony> pigeons: just tell them to synchronise the mempool 12:38 < fluffypony> with voting 12:41 -!- Tomiii [~Tommiii@garza.riseup.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:42 -!- Netsplit over, joins: binaryFate 12:42 < pigeons> you know that's next for real 12:43 -!- joecool [~joecool@no-sources/joecool] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:46 -!- Oizopower [uid19103@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ebkdwqhgggmzlklv] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 12:47 -!- PeterR [cdfa7ea5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.205.250.126.165] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:51 -!- arowser [~quassel@106.120.101.38] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 12:52 -!- arowser [~quassel@106.120.101.38] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:52 -!- OxADADA_ [~OxADADA@alumni-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:53 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: binaryFate 12:53 -!- OxADADA [~OxADADA@alumni-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:57 < nwilcox> broadcasting orders to a dht/blockchain allows some participants in said medium to front-run orders (by reacting to them before they are generally known to the public). 12:58 < nwilcox> -at least with the naive approach. 12:58 -!- zookolaptop [~user@c-71-229-205-98.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:58 < nwilcox> I don't know how much of an issue that would be. 12:59 < adlai> nwilcox: ACCSs are "frequent batch auctions" so to front-run effectively, you need to mine your own swaps 13:00 -!- WyzBTC1 [~Adium@72.10.98.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:00 < pigeons> doesn't namecoin do some encoding or locking to keep name operations from being censored or grabbed first 13:01 -!- mihar [~mihar@4.16.87.162] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:01 < nwilcox> adlai: I'm not familiar with frequent batch auctions, nor exchange protocols in general. Doesn't ACCS require two committed participants who agree on a price up front? (If so, it must initialte after an order is matched, right?) 13:02 < nwilcox> pigeons: For the namecoin case a simple commit / reveal suffices. 13:02 < pigeons> yeah i see they just broadcast a hash first 13:02 < nwilcox> There's not much incentive to block a reveal since you cannot insert a commitment before the targetted commitment. 13:03 < nwilcox> By contrast, revealing an order is different, because the MITM can choose whether or not to drop that information or to place their own matching order before the general public gets to decide. 13:03 < nwilcox> So there *is* an incentive to block or "front-run". 13:05 -!- LeMiner2 [LeMiner@5ED1AFBF.cm-7-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:05 -!- LeMiner [~LeMiner@unaffiliated/leminer] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:06 < adlai> http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/eric.budish/research/HFT-FrequentBatchAuctions.pdf 13:07 < adlai> even once you've found (a) counterparty/ies, ACCS doesn't guarantee trade execution until all 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