--- Log opened Fri Jan 22 00:00:11 2016
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00:15 < kelly> do most miners order the transactions in a block according to the time in which they received them, or by largest fee?
00:15 < kelly> or do they select by largest fee, but then order temporally?
00:16 < Taek> transactions are generally ordered in the block by fee-per-kb, with some variations due to cp4p and rbf
00:16 < Taek> *I'm not a dev, info may be outdated or incorrect. Just remember some graphs I was staring at in HK
00:16 < kelly> thanks
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00:17 < kelly> I knew that they were selected by fee
00:17 < Taek> it should be noted that this is per-usual, there's no enforcement on how transactions are ordered
00:17 < kelly> right
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00:33 < phantomcircuit> Taek, that is certainly how it works
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00:55 < kelly> I'd be interested to see what % of txns have the highest fee/kb as the first transaction in the block
00:58 < kelly> if blockchain.info is to be trusted on the ordering (which is a big if) than bitfury isn't ordering like that
00:58 < kelly> https://blockchain.info/block/000000000000000001473c57509de66a33771f9dc46974f948fd94eba7fcab82
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01:32 < gmaxwell> hehe, trolls on reddit are sometimes entertaining:
01:32 < gmaxwell> "Personally I like the idea of hashcash if, and only if, it's structured like a real currency as opposed to simply proof of work. In the real world you pay for resources used. In many cases this should also apply to P2P and other computer systems.
01:32 < gmaxwell> Of course getting hashcash workable as a real currency is extremely difficult. I've thought of a scheme that would work (coins are signed by owner and can only be changed (signed to a different owner) by owner) except you need a decentralized "central" database of all the hashcash that's been minted. Unworkable. !@#$ spend-twice problem. :(" ... Peter Todd in 2001, on a mailing list with Hal and
01:33 < gmaxwell> Adam Back
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01:33 < gmaxwell> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/bluesky/2001-March.txt
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01:48 < nsh> gmaxwell, hi! :)
01:53 < fluffypony> gmaxwell: did they conclude that petertodd == satoshi?
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01:55 < smooth> "Hashcash at this scale makes me wince; all those wasted cycles..." --hal
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02:15 < frankenmint> how do i build bitcoin from source??? just ./autogen.sh ... make install ?
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02:16 < frankenmint> stock options want to build .12 to try out a benchmarking script by altoidnerd
02:17 < frankenmint> ah okay so added ./configure
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04:42 < adlai> frankenmint: wrong channel?
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06:34 < kanzure> scala-based lightning network implementation thingy https://github.com/ACINQ/eclair
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06:41 < frankenmint> adlai: pretty much I got it figured out I think
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06:54 < frankenmint> thank you kanzure, im reading the pdf on the bottom of the implementation page seems like a pt 2 to the orig. proposal
06:54 < frankenmint> seems like the jist is a soft fork version of lightning now???
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07:05 < nsh> tromp_, how much speedup would you get for your GO solver if you rewrote it as a quantum algorithm? just grover quadratic, or better?
07:05 < nsh> *Go
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07:05 < tromp_> what Go solver?
07:06 < nsh> did you do this? http://tromp.github.io/go/legal19.html
07:06 < tromp_> that's a counter, not a solver:)
07:06 < nsh> oh, sorry
07:06 < tromp_> there's no search involved there, so i don't see any quantum speedup
07:07 < nsh> i just wondered if there are better algorithms for solving than brute-force
07:07 < nsh> and where they sit in the complexity zoo
07:08 < tromp_> by solving, you mean finding the best result of a two player game?
07:08 < tromp_> those are generally PSPACE complete
07:09 < nsh> i guess i mean an algorithm that returns the perfect next play for a given board position
07:09 < nsh> there will be some minimal representation of the perfect strategy, by Kolmogorov
07:10 < nsh> (for a given board size)
07:10 < tromp_> yes, that will just be a minimax solver
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07:11 < tromp_> such as this one http://tromp.github.io/java/go/twoxtwo.html
07:12 < nsh> so i guess my quesiton resolves to whether or not minimax exhibits 'structure' that allows for quantum speedup
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07:13 < nsh> ' Performing any form of minimax search on a quantum computer in better than exponential time is ridiculously unlikely, and one would expect at most a modest (polynomial) speedup compared to now. This much is already proved by the existing literature.' -- http://senseis.xmp.net/?QuantumComputing
07:14 < nsh> heh
07:14 < nsh> 'However, the expression "solving go", as if we were doing sudoku, is wrong. It's like saying you could solve art, or solve mathematics (googleFor:Göedel). Simply, there are things you can not compute. Anyone who's played enough Go knows that this isn't a game a about mere calculations, there is a lot of right brain hemisphere activity going on as well. There are a lot of factors involved in a Go m
07:14 < nsh> atch, and understanding another person's intentions is no easy task for machines. It's a human capacity known as "empathy"; I just don't think machines might get right-hemisphere-type artificial intelligence someday, creative tasks and abstract reasoning, aesthetics perception, intuition, imaginative process.. result => does not compute, I think. '
07:15 < nsh> that's a very strong position contra computational church turing
07:15 < tromp_> i think that's enough way off topic for now:)
07:15 < nsh> i find it increasingly hard to think of any kind of physics as noncomputational. so the idea of a brain doing something other than calculations in some abstract sense seems pretty devoid of meaning
07:15  * nsh nods
07:15 < nsh> my bad
07:15 < kanzure> i think i solved 100 arts
07:15 < instagibbs> #bitcoin-wizards-offtopic
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09:19 < bsm117532> Can anyone provide any references on distributed, deterministic order matching?  i.e. imagine that instead of a block containing UTXO's, it contained an order book with bids and asks, which get matched deterministically. I know a few projects do this, effectively.
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09:23 < nsh> which projects?
09:23 < nsh> i mean, there are obvious trivial impossibility results unless you loosen the notion of strict sequential matching because a distributed system does not have a common proper time
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09:24 < nsh> and loosening that without it being open to gaming or other problems seems tricky
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09:27 < bsm117532> nsh: that's exactly what I was hoping to find literature on.  CounterParty, NXT, etc claim to do it.
09:28 < nsh> shout if you find any!
09:28 < bsm117532> I was thinking naively of publishing all orders in a "block" (bids and asks would overlap) and having deterministic resolution rules.  But I'm sure it can be gamed...
09:28 < nsh> you can make it so the expected utility of gaming is below some cost threshold
09:28 < nsh> that's the generic solution i suspect
09:29 < bsm117532> obviously, a time based first-in-first-out isn't possible in a distributed system...
09:29 < nsh> but when a single trade can be massively valuable, that's hard
09:29 < nsh> so might result in having to set a maximum order-differential value delta
09:29 < nsh> if that makes sense?
09:29 < nsh> which will mean some bid/asks will have to be broken up
09:29 < bsm117532> Partial fills are a requiremenet.
09:29 < nsh> or else another way to prevent a reordering changing value too much
09:29 < nsh> what's a partial fill?
09:30 < bsm117532> Two people place orders for 100 units against an existing sell of 100 units, each would get 50.
09:30 < bsm117532> (only fair way to do it if you don't have time ordering)
09:31 < nsh> ah i see
09:31 < nsh> yeah, in that case if you define the degree of order overlap and apply partial fill, then it's pretty much optimally fair
09:31 < bsm117532> The gaming I think would come down to non-random oracle of your hash function.  Taking all the orders to be matched you can make a PRNG to decide (e.g. rounding of partial fills).
09:32 < nsh> but because that depends on latency which is hard to predict, you probably end up having to fine-tune the err
09:32 < nsh> hmm
09:32 < bsm117532> Why would latency matter?
09:32 < bsm117532> Just imagine a "tick" sending out the order book once per time interval, just like blocks.
09:32 < nsh> because 'now' depends on the now of elsewhere getting to you
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09:32 < nsh> and that depends on network stuff that's out of our hands
09:32 < bsm117532> Imagine the tick is long enough that all participants have a chance to see the order book and react (so, more than a second, roughly0
09:33  * nsh nods
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09:33 < bsm117532> I think this is what CounterParty does...
09:33 < nsh> so i characterised bitcoin this way once, in terms of conflict-free replicated data types
09:34 < nsh> in which you have operation-based and state-based, but bitcoin ends up being a hybrid of these due to blocktime 'tick' as you say
09:34 < nsh> --
09:34 < nsh> Operation-based CRDTs are called commutative replicated data types, or CmRDTs. CmRDT replicas propagate state by broadcasting the state update operation itself, which must be commutative. For example, a CmRDT of a single integer might broadcast the operations (+10) or (-20). Replicas receive the updates and apply them locally. The operations are commutative, so can be received and applied in any ord
09:34 < nsh> er; however, they are not idempotent, and additional network protocol guarantees are required to ensure unique delivery.
09:34 < nsh> -- block propagatoins
09:34 < nsh> State-based CRDTs are called convergent replicated data types, or CvRDTs. In contrast to CmRDTs, CvRDTs send their full local state to other replicas. CvRDTs have the following local interface:
09:34 < nsh>     query - reads the state of the replica, with no side effects
09:34 < nsh>     update - writes to the replica state in accordance with certain restrictions
09:34 < nsh>     merge - merges local state with the state of some remote replica
09:34 < nsh> -- transaction propagation
09:35 < bsm117532> egads you should read some of the things I've written privately. It's like you read my mind...
09:35 < nsh> hehe :D
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09:35 < bsm117532> One side thought I've been having is the notion of commutative updates, conflict-resolvable, and conflicting updates.
09:36 < bsm117532> e.g. multiple sequential spends from a single UTXO could in principle be merged, instead of being a double spend in bitcoin.
09:37 < nsh> right
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18:27 < gmaxwell> tromp_: CONGRATS ON L19 computation!
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18:54 < tromp_> thanks, Gregory!
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18:59 < bsm1175321> Whazzat?
18:59 < tromp_> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10950875
19:00 < bsm1175321> Darn.  There goes my PoW algorithm...
19:00 < tromp_> perfect for a 9 month block interval:-)
19:01 < bsm1175321> Hey, if my landlord accepts yearly rent...
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19:03 < bsm1175321> I actually typed: isprime(2**74207281-1) into Maple today.  Perhaps I was over-optimistic.
19:04 < bsm1175321> there must be special techniques for merseinne primes...
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19:11 < tromp_> i think it's called the lucas-lehmer test
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19:12 < bramc> Okay, so I'm partway into writing the insertion code now, and somewhat unrelatedly have run into a bit of a moral dilemma
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19:15 < bramc> For fairly obvious reasons it's much faster to check for inclusion in a hashtable than in a tree, so when doing significant inclusion checking operations it's a good idea to have a parallel standard set for doing those operations. Some goes if you want a map.
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19:17 < bramc> So there's this ridiculous is_included() method sitting here. On the one hand, someone might have a good reason for using it in case of emergency. On the other hand, it's inclusion would seem to imply that it's a good idea to use it. I'm tempted to remove it completely. What does everybody think?
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19:17 < bsm1175321> You really want this fast, don't you?
19:18 < bsm1175321> log(n) vs O(1) is a good problem to have.
19:18 < bramc> The method is_included_make_proof() of course stays. The advantage of is_included() is that it's much more performant, but nowhere near as performant as the same call on a normal set is.
19:18 < bsm1175321> I'm wrestling with O(n^3) on some braid algorithms.
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19:18 < bramc> bsm117532 It's already log(n), The whole point of this exercise is to get cache misses from log(n) to log(log(n)). Constant factors matter.
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19:19 < bramc> Technically log(log(n)) isn't a constant factor, but it acts a lot like it in practice.
19:19 < bsm1175321> Hashes should be O(1) no?  You're probably using a more sophisticated analysis of the buckets than me...
19:20 < bramc> Yes hashes are O(1). It's my set which is O(log(log(n))
19:20 < bramc> )
19:20 < bsm1175321> Uh...How did you add another log?
19:21 < bramc> The location of nodes in memory is set up so that they're near each other.
19:21 < bramc> In the case of is_included() it skips to the bottom of a block directly thus avoiding a bunch of lookups, making its behavior much closer to that of a hashtable.
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19:22 < bramc> At least, it does that for balanced blocks. Basically it's treating balanced blocks as hashtables, which is a fairly accurate description of them
19:22 < bsm1175321> So it's a binary tree, which is log(n) in general, or O(1) modulo bucket reallcation... Explain how memory locality is modifying this?
19:23 < bsm1175321> What is a "block" in this context?
19:23 < bramc> The fanout within a block is limited, it only goes so many levels deep before pointing to another block
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19:24 < bsm1175321> I see, so the n of the block-based algorithm is log(n) for the blocks.
19:25 < bsm1175321> Wait, that can't work...
19:26 < bramc> So a block might represent, say, 5 bits. If you're doing a lookup at, say, 33 bits, you'll have cache misses at bits 4, 9, 14, 19, 24, 29, and then you're in a leaf so there are lookups for 30, 31, 32, and 33, but they're probably all in close memory proximity because they're in the same block.
19:26 < bsm1175321> The cache size shouldn't turn it from O(log(n)) to O(log(log n)) butt it might turn it into O((cache)*log(n/cache)), no?
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19:27 < bramc> My brain is too addled from writing 100 lines of code just now to make such subtle distinctions. There are ugly practicalities in this code.
19:27 < bsm1175321> I'm afraid you know a lot more about caches than me.
19:28 < bramc> The l1 and l2 cache are fairly simple. If you do a lookup to a place in memory too far from any of the places you've recently looked, you have to wait for it to be swapped into cache, which is fairly expensive.
19:28 < bramc> Some concept as disk accesses, but smaller distances and smaller times.
19:29 < bsm1175321> I guess my argument is that if you have an O(log(n)) algorithm (a binary tree), and you play caching games, this can't possibly get it to O(log(log(n))), can it?  It can just insert funny constant factors, but not another log.
19:30 < bsm1175321> If I graphed it, it should be A*log(n) + B*log(n) + C*log(n) as n gets larget, with discrete jumps between A,B,C as the caches get full, no?
19:30 < bsm1175321> *larger
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19:30 < bsm1175321> Jumps due to the speed of the caches.
19:33 < bramc> The tricks are that (a) branch blocks are in fixed position, so you can jump to the place where they point out most of the time, (b) everything within a block is in close proximity, so you can traverse the whole thing with possibly only a single cache miss
19:33 < bramc> I'm of course not directly referencing caches in my code. Just doing really weird-looking manual memory management to behave well with them.
19:34 < bramc> Mostly I have a giant byte array called self.memory
19:35 < bsm1175321> Shouldn't this just smooth out the transition between size(L1), size(L2), and size(L3) rather than make it log log?
19:36 < bsm1175321> I mean, the asymptotic limit, for a very large set, the cache doesn't help, no?
19:36 < bramc> Caches don't exactly get full. The simple model is to imagine that the computer has a small number of caches of fixed size: Say 16 of size 16 kilobytes, and whenever a part of memory is pulled in it's either part of one of the last 16 or the general neighborhood of size 16 kilobytes gets pulled into cache, and the least recently used gets booted.
19:37 < bramc> So if you can be very clever about making memory lookups have a lot of local affinity things can be very fast. Tree operations tend to bottleneck on waiting for memory.
19:37 < bsm1175321> I'd think it would be e.g. B*log(n/b) to find the block plus A*log(n/a) within the bloc, for example, for an overall B*log(n/b) + A*log(n/a) = (A+B)*log(n) - B log b - A log a...
19:38 < bsm1175321> So the cache is adding constant factors and modifying the coefficient of the log.
19:38 < bramc> No blocks are indexed by position, pulling data from one is a single cache miss
19:39 < bsm1175321> It sounds to me like your locality argument is increasing the "effective size" of the cache. No?
19:41 < bramc> Uh, sort of. The root block gets pulled in first, then you go several bits deep without having to leave that block, then you get referred to another block, which is of course a cache miss, which leads you a few more bits deep, then refers to another block...
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19:43 < bramc> There's a big difference between branch and leaf blocks, in that branch blocks are balanced and fixed position while leaf blocks do dynamic memory allocation using append to the end and sweep once they hit the end
19:43 < bramc> of the block
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19:43 < bsm1175321> So I'd argue that there's a range of set sizes where these optimizations are important.  e.g. with 16 caches of 16kb it smooths out the log curve of a < 16kb set to one of 256kb which is entirely in the L2 cache.  Likewise a smoother transition from L2 to L3. So what is your use case, and do you expect the set size to be in a range where these optimizations will make a big difference?
19:44 < bramc> This is for the utxo set, which I think is about 200 million entries, although maybe I just made that number up
19:44 < bsm1175321> So much larger than the largest cache around.
19:45 < bsm1175321> And growing :-
19:45 < bsm1175321> :-(
19:45 < bramc> Yes vastly larger.
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19:45 < bsm1175321> Are you sure these optimizations are noticeable on a set size very much larger than the cache?
19:45 < bramc> The TODOs at the top of this file are terrifying. Starting with porting to C.
19:45 < bsm1175321> heheee
19:46 < bramc> They matter more the larger the set size is
19:46 < bsm1175321> I think you're changing the coefficient of the log A*log(n)
19:46 < bramc> The trick is to make the block size reasonable. I have that as a parameter, it goes up by (roughly) factors of 2.
19:46 < bramc> If the block size is too big it gets cache misses within block, if it's too small there are cache misses elsewhere.
19:47 < bsm1175321> Ok I have no doubt these kinds of optimizations could change A by a factor 2 or more.
19:47 < bramc> My computer's about to die, have to leave the coffee shop and head home, be back in a bit.
19:48 < bramc> I'm guessing my implementation will be about a factor of 4 better than a simple one. It could easily be anywhere in the range 2-20 though.
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19:58 < bsm1175321> ;;tell bramc Wait I see.  In a block of blocks, that can be entirely loaded into the cache, you can search for the next sub-block.  And a sub-block fits within the cache. So in principle the search could be composed from (# cache loads)*(log(cache size)) + (# cache loads)*(cache load time)
19:58 < gribble> Error: I haven't seen bramc, I'll let you do the telling.
19:58 < bsm1175321> wtf
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20:03 < bramc> bsm117532 I think that's right although my brain is jello at the moment
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20:06 < bsm1175321> Which is A*log(# caches)*log(n) + const
20:06 < bsm1175321> Well, cool, nonetheless, to give L1 cache speed to a much larger data structure.  :-)
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20:07 < bsm1175321> Have a good night.  I'll make you do O(n) analysis on graph algorithms when you least expect it!  ;-)
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22:34 < Luke-Jr> random idea: would it cost much for blocks to commit to the heights of each tx input? this would be to make it possible to fraud-proof that inputs don't exist
22:34 < Luke-Jr> (maybe possible to bundle into segwit?)
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--- Log closed Sat Jan 23 00:00:12 2016