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04:02 < kang_> cuckoo : a memory-bound graph-theoretic proof-of-work system https://github.com/tromp/cuckoo
04:25 < fluffypony> kang_: been discussed here many times, tromp_ is a regular a participant in this channel
04:25 < kang_> I realized
04:26 < kang_> Sorry. Is it really trivial to verify?
04:26 < kang_> How can a solution to TSP be trivial to verify?
04:27 < fluffypony> it's outside my wheelhouse, but I'm sure when he's around tromp_ will comment
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08:24 < tromp__> it's not TSP; it's a cycle of 42 edges
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08:25 < tromp__> it's trivial to check whether 42 given edges form a cycle
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08:26 < tromp__> cuckoo cycle just appeared on Hacker News at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10957765
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09:26 < AdrianG> nice
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09:58 < maaku> Luke-Jr: that was in sipa's original segwit presentation (backpointers, an idea due to rusty)
09:59 < maaku> it's not yet in the segwit branch
10:00 < maaku> tromp__: how mature is the cuckoo codebase?
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10:40 < Luke-Jr> maaku: yet? :x
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11:26 < maaku> Luke-Jr: patches welcome
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11:31 < wallet42> maaku: what kind of backpointers?
11:33 < maaku> wallet42: a merkle tree of the block nth block, mth transaction where the output being spent originated
11:34 < maaku> it's actually quite trivial, probably a dozen lines of code
11:36 < maaku> the merkle sum tree of fees is only slightly more complicated
11:37 < maaku> Luke-Jr: is you patricia trie implementation in C hosted anywhere?
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11:38 < Luke-Jr> maaku: never got it finished still :<
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11:40 < zookolaptop> maaku: what do you want a patricia trie for?
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11:40 < zooko> maaku: I mean, I see it is for this backpointer index thingie.
11:41 < zooko> maaku: but I don't know -- is this something you'd need to deploy to others, integrate into bitcoin-core or anything like that?
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11:59 < maaku> no it is not for that, unrelated request :)
12:00 < maaku> it is not consensus code (for bitcoin, anyway)
12:02 < zooko> How important is concrete performance?
12:02 < zooko> I've had great success using Judy Trees for some computational linguistics hacking with my then-wife.
12:03 < zooko> Performed beautifully.
12:03 < tromp__> maaku: somewhat mature in terms of performance. but written in my overly concise and underdocumented style.
12:03 < gmaxwell> zooko: just don't read the source code for libjudy.
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12:09 < zooko> gmaxwell: oh I know.
12:09 < zooko> gmaxwell: that's why I asked what the purpose of this was before recommending it. :-)
12:11 < maaku> zooko: it woud be for consensus code (merged mining, among other things) just not on bitcoin core
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12:11 < maaku> so clean and concise is preferred :)
12:12 < zooko> maaku: ooh, ok.
12:12 < zooko> Then I do not recommend libjudy.
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12:16 < zooko> I wonder what *is* the cleanest, simplest implementation of some kind of nice tree structure for such a purpose…
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13:06 < tromp__> btw, earlier versions of my Go counting code used judy arrays
13:07 < tromp__> back when the data sets all fit in main memory
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13:22 < maaku> zooko yeah I'm assuming we'll have to roll our own
13:23 < maaku> I didn't find anything in my previous search
13:24 < zooko> What programming language?
13:25 < Guest76435> I'm currently working on a patricia trie https://github.com/bramcohen/MerkleSet
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13:27 < bramc> Not sure what a judy tee is
13:29 < gmaxwell> a radix-256 trie with an implementation that is something like 30k lines of highly macrofied C code. :) Pretty fast though.
13:35 < zooko> gmaxwell: it's not *just* a radix-256 trie, either... It switches among representations at each node based on the density of that node's population ...
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13:40 < bramc> This sounds similar to what I'm doing, but I'm being much cruder and simpler about it
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13:41 < bramc> What I'm doing is a patricia trie, and has different representations but there are only two: branch and leaf
13:42 < zooko> *nod*
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14:03 < zooko> bramc: https://github.com/bramcohen/MerkleSet/blob/master/merkle_set.py Cool! ☺
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14:12 < bramc> zooko, Note that that file isn't done being written yet, much less debugged, but the comment at the top explaining the data format is fairly comprehensive, if a bit ad-hoc in its notation.
14:13 < zooko> *nod*
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18:34 < ebfull> what is the most common `vin` arity for a bitcoin transaction in practice? is there a tool equipt to calculate that easily via the blockchain?
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18:35 < ebfull> oops meant to ask that in #bitcoin-dev
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19:27 < kanzure> "E.g., instead of using PoW to designate the winner, use the hash of the last block to appoint the decider of the next block.  If you can get the hash to be truly unpredictable (e.g., I can't frontrun myself by pre-predicting myself as the winner) then a more perfectly distributed lottery would remove the need for energy burning at all."
19:27 < kanzure> (from ian grigg)
19:27 < kanzure> but.... then you still need sybil resistance. so i'm not sure what he's thinking.
19:29 < bsm1175321>  You have to be sure the selected node is online.
19:30 < bsm1175321> And I can get the hash to favor me (statistically), by submitting transactions.
19:31 < bsm1175321> The ex-post-facto block publication mechanism of bitcoin is a significant advantage in a byzantine enviroment.  Sounds like he's advocating something closer to traditional leader election, which is best left to non-byzantine environments.
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19:32 < bramc> In proof of stake you inherently have a tradeoff with functioning while peers are offline. If you want to be able to function with only x% online then you have a serious risk that something greater than x% will do retroactive re-mining, especially if you get into a state where there really is only x% online
19:33 < bramc> In practice it seems that most cow systems are completely controlled by one entity who stays online all the time, so problem solved.
19:33 < adlai> CoW?
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19:45 < tromp__> CoW == proof of steak in Cohenese
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20:14 < bramc> Update on the stuff I was babbling about yesterday: I've now consolidated is_included() and is_included_make_proof() to both use the same underlying function. It's only a few lines of code to support the optimized but still not great is_included() without proof, so I'm not sweating it any more.
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21:58 < catfish> what do I need to start minining bitcoins
21:58 < catfish> or how can I start earning bitcoins
21:59 < bramc> catfish, Ask in #bitcoin
22:02 < catfish> k thanks
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22:42 < coinoperated> tromp__ Proof of Steak is also, technically, Cohenese
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23:20 < RoboTeddy> tromp__: are you the L19 Tromp?
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23:34 < fluffypony> RoboTeddy: he is
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23:39 < RoboTeddy> tromp__: congratulations then :)
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--- Log closed Sun Jan 24 00:00:13 2016