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06:24 < bsm1175321> In case anyone looked at the above graph: one can generalize the concept of "sibling" to say 3rd order siblings.  That is, find a common ancestor and descendant of 3 sibling beads (analogous to orphans -- produced at the same time). This becomes possible as the size of a cohort increases, due to faster bead/block time and lower difficulty targets. One then can measure the relative work along each path to the commo
06:26 < bsm1175321> This might tell us something interesting about the behavior of miners, that could be used in an incentive formula. I think 2nd order siblings is sufficient to eliminate selfish mining attacks, but I wonder what one could do with a higher order analysis of the structure. Any ideas?
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06:28 < bsm1175321> It's worth noting that as you increase the number of simultaneous siblings you're going to consider the complexity of the algorithm increases.  e.g. a naive implementation of siblings as shown in the graph is O(n^3) and 3rd order siblings should be O(n^4) where n is the number of beads in the cohort.  This can certainly be improved by clever use of subgraph analysis though.
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08:51 < bsm117532> I invented my own language.  I talk mostly to myself.  Voices in my head... ;-)
08:52 < amiller_> every voice starts out in someones head
08:53 < zooko> ☺
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08:54  * adlai isn't sure which bsm117532 to highlight
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08:55 < adlai> bsm117532: can you please explain how graph structure indicates miner strategy?
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08:57 < adlai> it might help to reverse the direction of arrows in these graphs. genesis doesn't point to anything, everything points back towards it.
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09:00 < bsm117532> adlai: Everything does point to genesis.  The arrows are pointing to the parent.
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09:01 < adlai> "genesis is on the left, braid tip is on the right" is that backwards?
09:01 < bsm117532> adlai: A withhheld block will have an old parent but will be followed quickly by a child.
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09:01 < bsm117532> adlai: Yes I said it backwards.
09:03 < bsm117532> So a rank (m,n) with m>n indicates that the sibling was withheld.
09:03 < bsm117532> m<n indicates other miners are withholding.
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09:04  * adlai can't figure out the rank labelling either :-\
09:04 < bsm117532> That's probably because I just made it up..s.
09:04 < adlai> shouldn't the (1,3) bead in that same chart be (1,1) ?
09:05 < bsm117532> The (1,3) is relative to the bead circled in black.
09:05 < bsm117532> I think you're right, my arrows are backwards.
09:06 < bsm117532> Darnit
09:07 < adlai> if the arrows are backwards then now the (2,1) ranks are incorrect. shouldn't those be (1,1)?
09:09 < bsm117532> With (m,n), m is the number of steps you have to go from the black bead to find a common ancestor with the (m,n) labelled sibling; n is the number of steps toward the orange bead to find a common descendant.
09:10 < bsm117532> It's steps *from* the black bead.  It's not symmetric.  Viewed from the (1,3) labelled bead, the steps to get to the black bead is not (1,3) or (3,1) it is something else entirely, in general.
09:10  * adlai gets it now (confusion was interpreting n as the number of steps from MRCA to sibling)
09:11 < bsm117532> Viewed from the (1,3) bead, the black bead would be labelled with rank (1,1).
09:12 < adlai> rank = (m = distance to Most Recent Common Ancestor, n = distance to Least Recent Common Descendent), calculated from reference bead to sibling
09:12 < bsm117532> A bit confusing.  Every time I look at these graphs I think my code is broken, but many iterations now I convince myself it's actually correct.
09:12 < bsm117532> adlai: correct.
09:12  * adlai initiates coffee ritual
09:12 < bsm117532> In my code I call it "oldest common descendant" and "youngest common ancestor"
09:13  * adlai stole "MRCA" from biology, it's an actual thing
09:13 < adlai> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_recent_common_ancestor
09:13 < bsm117532> aha cool.  Terminology escapes me often in this project.  I keep making up words.
09:14 < adlai> further down this rabbit hole are https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Adam
09:14 < adlai> sadly, they never met.
09:14 < bsm117532> Ooooh concestor.  Didn't know that word.  Sounds dirty though :-/
09:15 < adlai> concise yet precise terminology is indispensable... otherwise we end up with colloidal sporks and electroweak subjectivity
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09:17  * bsm117532 googles both those.  Is confused.  Wrote Ph.D. thesis on Electroweak Symmetry Breaking... ;-)
09:17 < bsm117532> That's why I'm making up words.  Want to be clear when I'm talking about a blockchain and blocks and when I'm not.
09:18 < bsm117532> But for a time it means I talk to myself...
09:18  * adlai is being uncharitable to the "hard / soft fork" [false(?)] dichotomy, and "weak subjectivity"
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09:18 < bsm117532> Ha!  I like it.
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09:21 < adlai> we should just avoid all general terms and refer to proposed changes by their git commit hash. people who want memorable names must mine vanity-IDs...
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09:22 < bsm117532> `git mine b6a1d`
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09:23 < adlai> git mine c1a551c
09:23 < adlai> is the 6 a vertically-mirrored rho?
09:24 < bsm117532> Best I could do with hex.
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09:24 < adlai> git mine dag
09:25 < adlai> er, da9
09:25 < bsm117532> eeewww incest is bad.
09:25  * adlai is suddenly reminded of `21 mine` :D
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09:37  * bsm117532 is suddenly reminded that his 21.co is not mining...
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09:52 < instagibbs> adlai, lol watch out I think people might take you seriously
09:55 < adlai> my serious complaint is that "hard/soft fork" have very specific technical definitions that are rather easy to grasp, and give people a false sense of understanding the entire landscape of {for,back}wards-{in,}compatible changes to CRDT structure
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09:56 < adlai> the terms definitely have meaning and everybody can reach consensus on whether a specific proposed change is hard or soft; but the issues that matter (economic effects, who has to update, who gains/loses security, etc) are rather independent of the hardness bit
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09:58 < zooko> adlai: I think a lot of folks have misunderstandings about those terms.
09:58 < zooko> A lot of folks that I observe seem to think that a "hard fork" means a fork that changes fundamental economics.
09:58 < zooko> Others seem to think that a "hard fork" means a fork that is contentious.
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10:01 < kefkius> Coming the world of shitcoins, I think a "hard fork" is a regular wallet upgrade
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10:20 < bsm117532> I've been disappointed that certain actors have been spreading misinformation too.  The argument is that in a soft fork miners can lose money.  But if a miner is not keeping his software up to date, he's *not*doing*his*job*.  Miners are transaction validators and that's why they are paid.  They shouldn't expect to get paid if they refuse to validate a new tx type.
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10:26 < adlai> every node is a transaction validator, miners only provide consensus
10:27 < adlai> you can rephrase a softfork as a majority of consensus producers colluding to exclude the minority... which is why softforks should only trigger with supermajority support (for easy justification of majority tyranny)
10:27 < bsm117532> Only miners commit to their validation cryptographically and communicate that fact.
10:28 < bsm117532> (SPV mining not withstanding -- which is a thing we should seek to destroy)
10:28 < adlai> regular nodes *must* validate, without trusting miners to have done so; otherwise miners can get away without validating
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10:56 < amiller_> i think "soft fork" should be qualified by exactly what kind of service is maintained for old nods
10:57 < amiller_> by default, i think the service everyone has in mind when saying "soft fork" is "can identify the current head of blockchain"
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10:57 < amiller_> but there are other services too, such as ability to receive SPV payments (that tends to come along for free)
10:59 < amiller_> as an extreme example to illustrate the distinction here, it would be possible to "soft fork" to a rule that says: "no more transactions ever, maxblocksize=0bytes"
11:00 < amiller_> legacy nodes would be able to identify the head of the blockchain, but they wouldn't be able to spend their money or receive payments so it's preserving one kind of service and interrupting another
11:00 < amiller_> this distinction is useful because there are actually some potentially meaningful edge cases
11:00 < amiller_> for example a soft-fork that sets a minimum fee and flat-out abandons free tx
11:01 < amiller_> because right now you could have a legacy wallet that only makes free tx, and it will at least work when the coins get old enough,
11:01 < amiller_> whereas after this hypothetical work it would no longer work
11:02 < amiller_> so, question to ask is, for a "soft-fork that breaks service X", is X a service that people actually use or are reasonably justified in using?
11:05 < adlai> alternatively, is the mining cartel reasonably justified in denying a service even if its not in frequent use today?
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11:05  * adlai uses "the" hypothetically, not accusing anybody today of doing this; but once a [super]majority collude to push through a softfork, they become a cartel, even if they joined it voluntarily
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11:50 < r0ach> amiller_: finally someone besides Satoshi understands bitcoin needs a forced min transaction fee and free tx is just an attack vector
11:51 < amiller_> well i'm not aiming to espouse any opinions on which services should and should not be discontinued, just that that's a better way than lumping everything ambiguously into "soft-fork", and it's also better than making up one-off names for everything else, firm fork, jelly fork, brittle fork, spork
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11:53 < AdrianG> adlai: mining cartel?
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11:56 < instagibbs> amiller_, lots of e-ink is spilled trying to figure out if things are out in the wild using things that will be soft-forked. High-S transactions I think are an example.
11:57  * adlai doesn't see why free transactions are an attack vector, provided that they "cost" coinage, by an amount dictated by supply&demand (same as the coin cost for paid transactions is also dictated by the market)
11:57 < instagibbs> you also can't enforce a fee floor, so kind of DOA
11:58 < adlai> AdrianG: a hashpower majority can arbitrarily soft-fork the minority off the network, and increase their own relative hashrate. doing this would be stupid as it would rapidly erode confidence in the entire system, but it's still technically possible.
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11:58 < instagibbs> but yes being more specific is helpful. Lots of (intentional?) confusion floating around.
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12:00 < AdrianG> adlai: i think we will see such scenarios. right now we have a hard fork threat, and miners are behind it, even though it is very damaging.
12:00 < AdrianG> so anything that is possible will likely be attempted.
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12:02 < adlai> ehh, Bitcoin will always be under various threats... it actually seemed to me (from the little exposure I suffered to the latest drama) that a) miners are coming to their senses about the senselessness of intentionally wrecking consensus systems, and b) Bitcoiners are coming to their senses about the irrelevance of miner opinions about this kind of consensus breakage
12:02 < r0ach> adlai: It's a fact that Bitcoin has central bankers.  The only way for it not to is to set block size to unlimited and min transaction fee to 0.  Once you've established it does have them, it's only a question of who should be doing what with those powers.  Miners have incentive to make as much profit per tx as possible, so there's no reason for them to support 0 fee transactions.
12:02 < r0ach> and devs should be supporting a min transaction fee to prevent a perma back log or they're not fulfilling their duty
12:03 < r0ach> so both parties should technically be pro min fee
12:03 < adlai> nobody has any "duty", all parties are free to act in as altruistic or antagonistic a manner as they choose
12:04 < adlai> but your comment about "central bankers" and their consequence is news to me :)
12:04 < AdrianG> r0ach: who are the central bakners?
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12:05 < r0ach> devs and miners, and you need to understand the maxwell + theymos argument about block size
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12:07 < AdrianG> i think thats a bad analogy.
12:08 < AdrianG> central bankers cannot be forked away from.
12:08 < adlai> ad hominems and arguments from or against authority fall under "short-term Bitcoin development" and are thus off-topic
12:09 < AdrianG> adlai: how is decentralization going to be assured in the long term?
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12:11 < bsm117532> By requiring everyone to mine at the input.  (mine your own tx's).  Not that this is a near-term possibility for bitcoin...
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12:12 < AdrianG> without such changes there simply could be no long term.
12:12 < bsm117532> AdrianG: agreed.
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12:14 < AdrianG> bsm117532: if you would require mining at the input, couldnt you just borrow hashpower for a little bit?
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12:15 < bsm117532> AdrianG: possibly, and I don't think one can prevent outsourcing of hashing in this manner.  But then the centralization force is not part of the protocol itself.
12:16 < bsm117532> But see the "scratch-off puzzles" paper...
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12:16 < AdrianG> bsm117532: what do you think about cuckoo cycle, where asics are replaced with RAM chips
12:17 < AdrianG> idk how that will prevent centralization, you'd just have ppl warehouse DRAM chips instead.
12:18 < AdrianG> non-outsourceable puzzles prevent pools. you could still end up with massive farms.
12:19 < r0ach> non-outsourceable puzzle gets rid of pools but gives an even higher barrier of entry to mining, so kinda making small, pool hopping type of home miners extinct
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12:20 < AdrianG> i am not sure its possible to discourage economies of scale in principle.
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12:21 < erasmospunk> can you check this, working on a block relay format https://gist.github.com/erasmospunk/23040383b7620b525df0
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12:22 < tromp_> cuckoo cycle is pool unfriendly
12:22 < erasmospunk> there is a description of a blockdag format that the soft blocks can form
12:22 < zooko`> tromp_ why is that?
12:22 < instagibbs> AdrianG, tromp made a good point(in HN?) that commodity hardware would make "mining as donation" easier.
12:22 < tromp_> because proof attempt can be set to take let's say 1% of block interval
12:22 < instagibbs> I'd like to mine a bit even at a loss, but most machines are way too large and loud for my use
12:23 < AdrianG> instagibbs: mining chip in every phone charger? to give you magix dust to spend online?
12:23 < tromp_> which keeps difficulty pretty low
12:23 < AdrianG> instagibbs: oh you are talking about pure altruism. it's not going to work at scale.
12:23 < tromp_> and leaves less room for easy shares
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12:23 < instagibbs> AdrianG, eh? you actually don't need "that much" altruism
12:24 < zooko`> Where's the discussion on HN?
12:24 < AdrianG> instagibbs: unless we are in a fully bitcoinized economy and mining as donation transforms into a security service
12:24 < tromp_> but i guess you can use cycles of wrong length as shares
12:24 < erasmospunk> With the blockdag, there are 2 possible DOS attacks
12:24 < erasmospunk> attacker miner spams the network with low difficulty soft blocks and then leaves when diff is high
12:24 < erasmospunk> attacker creates a soft-block with non-standard or 0-fee transactions that everybody must rebroadcast
12:26 < erasmospunk> the blockdag is a kind of a global mining pool but it doesn't deal with rewards
12:26 < erasmospunk> only the propagation delay
12:26 < instagibbs> zooko`, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10957765
12:27 < instagibbs> typically the discourse there is a bit behind the current lore, but alas
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12:28 < zzyzx> Adrian.mining chip in every phone...! Google ARA
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12:28 < AdrianG> instagibbs: what makes you think its possible to sustain a global system on altruism? and how much altruism will be necessary?
12:29 < zooko`> instagibbs: thank
12:29 < zooko`> s
12:29 < AdrianG> if mining at residential rates does not result in outrageous bills, it might be easier to charge your phone overnight and have some dust to spend vs going thru AML/KYC. but amounts mined in this fashion  might be too low to boostrap this.
12:30 < erasmospunk> or pay with hashing power for content
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12:31 < erasmospunk> a kind of off-chain microtransaction
12:31 < amiller_> don't think about it as sustaining a network with altruism, think of it as leverage
12:31 < amiller_> how do you best utilize and leverage the existing altruism hwerever it is
12:34 < AdrianG> erasmospunk: same thing in the end
12:35 < erasmospunk> AdrianG: only if you have Lightning, even in that case you need >dust to open a channel
12:36 < AdrianG> erasmospunk: maybe chips will come with pre-opened channels?O
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12:36 < AdrianG> sort of like factory activation.
12:37 < AdrianG> or preloaded with 100 satoshis or something.
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12:37 < erasmospunk> this assumes that you mine for the chip manufacturer
12:37 < AdrianG> the US has ~300 mio phones.
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12:38 < AdrianG> even if they all mine 1 satoshi every night, that would be 3 bitcoins daily.
12:40 < AdrianG> at 1watt consuption it would be a 300 megawatt facility.
12:40 < AdrianG> what are the roadblocks for such commoditization?
12:42 < tromp_> phone needs to access to full node in order to mine
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12:43 < AdrianG> connect to a node in p2pool?
12:43 < AdrianG> spv mine.
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12:44 < tromp_> yes, mining should be integrated into wallet for ease of use
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13:03 < bsm117532> erasmospunk: "blockdag" is not sufficiently specific to identify attack vectors.  There are multiple visions of a dag with different advantages/drawbacks.
13:04 < bsm117532> But there should be a minimum difficulty as well as a maximum difficulty.
13:04 < bsm117532> The minimum difficulty is related to the dag complexity of the analog of a bitcoin block, and the computational resources involved in analyzing it.
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13:06 < erasmospunk> bsm117532: an attacking miner could easily mess with the dag when it is supported by a small minority of the hashing power
13:06 < bsm117532> How?
13:06 < erasmospunk> I am a 30% pool
13:07 < erasmospunk> and the dag is used by miners with 1%
13:07 < bsm117532> FYI the three DAG ideas I know of are: Iota, "Inclusive Blockchains" and Braids.
13:07 < tromp_> not rootstock?
13:08 < erasmospunk> I can create 30 times more soft blocks than the minority
13:08 < erasmospunk> increase the difficulty
13:08 < erasmospunk> and then leave
13:09 < bsm117532> erasmospunk: Sharechains like p2pool (not a dag) will drop you out of the payouts when you leave.
13:09 < erasmospunk> bsm117532: I am only familiar with Braids (that I borrowed the "no-incest" rule)
13:10 < bsm117532> Also, the sharechain shouldn't have such a dumb difficulty calculation...
13:10 < bsm117532> erasmospunk: That would be me...the braid authro.
13:10 < erasmospunk> hi Bob
13:11 < erasmospunk> this design does not deal with shares
13:11 < bsm117532> So the sharechain needs an estimate of its own hashrate that is more sophisticated than Bitcoin's.
13:11 < erasmospunk> only propagation
13:11 < bsm117532> Ok.  Then I'm not sure what you're talking about with a more specific design.
13:12 < bsm117532> I can tell you mine though...
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13:12 < erasmospunk> the dag is used to form a consensus about what miners are mining at the same time
13:13 < erasmospunk> and when a solution is found, only about 350bytes need to be relayed
13:13 < erasmospunk> to reconstruct the block
13:13 < bsm117532> erasmospunk: So you're trying to build a "soft block" scheme on top of a DAG?
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13:14 < erasmospunk> the opposite, a dag using soft block extensions
13:14 < bsm117532> Egads, why would you want that?
13:15 < bsm117532> Soft blocks are a mechanism for eliminating orphans.  Braids don't have orphans.
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13:15 < erasmospunk> a soft block can be standalone, just to propagate a block. In that case you use transaction ids to describe the merkle tree
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13:16 < erasmospunk> but this still takes 10K+
13:16 < erasmospunk> it is possible to further drop the size
13:16 < bsm117532> But the reason you want to propagate it so fast is because you might get orphaned.  Braids have no orphans.
13:16 < bsm117532> 10k is not a problem...
13:17 < bsm117532> You might be interested in a recent development since my Scaling Bitcoin talk: sibling rank.
13:17 < bsm117532> http://imgur.com/6aPWbqY
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13:18 < bsm117532> The numbered beads are siblings of the black circled bead.  The "rank" is how many beads away the youngest common ancestor and oldest common parent are.
13:18 < bsm117532> This is an indication of miner behavior, and can be used explicitly in an incentive formula to remove the problems you're worried about (I think).
13:19 < erasmospunk> do you have a document to look it better?
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13:19 < bsm117532> Still working on it.  Code to generate that graph works, and will be on github this week.
13:20 < bsm117532> I think we still have work to do on developing and proving a correct incentive structure.
13:20 < erasmospunk> btw, you say that braids don't have orphans. This is not true for the bitcoin blockchain
13:20 < bsm117532> Bitcoin blockchain is not a braid.
13:20 < bsm117532> What do you mean?
13:20 < erasmospunk> yes
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13:21 < erasmospunk> creating a braid structure can only be via a soft fork at best
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13:21 < bsm117532> Yep.  It can be done in a manner similar to how segwit is being done.
13:21 < erasmospunk> so we would still have the blockchain
13:22 < bsm117532> The idea is that every bead would be a valid bitcoin block.
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13:23 < bsm117532> At some point, when 95% of miners are mining the beads, you allow there to be more txs in beads than in the bitcoin block.  This becomes a soft-fork capacity increase.
13:23 < erasmospunk> hmmm
13:23 < bsm117532> The mechanism is completely analagous to segwit.
13:24 < erasmospunk> but you still need to put everything in the normal blocks
13:24 < bsm117532> Until you hit 95% on the soft fork, yes.
13:24 < bsm117532> Before you hit 95%, the braid becomes a de-facto mempool synchronization tool.
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13:24 < erasmospunk> and the pow target?
13:25 < bsm117532> TBD.
13:25 < bsm117532> There's a min and a max though.
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13:25 < erasmospunk> one of the beads will be be the one?
13:25 < bsm117532> One of the beads will be the one bitcoin block.
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13:25 < erasmospunk> trying to think about it in a backwards compatible way
13:25 < bsm117532> If I mine one surpassing the braid's minimum difficulty, I remove the tx's that have already been seen in the braid, and transmit the bead to other braid-aware miners.
13:26 < erasmospunk> so there will be nodes that doesn't understand beads
13:26 < erasmospunk> as they don't have enough POW
13:27 < bsm117532> Yes.  But since all beads contain in their Merkle tree everything that's in the Bitcoin block...
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13:27 < bsm117532> So it's kind of a side-channel for communicating mempool synchronization, very akin to "weak blocks".
13:27 < bsm117532> Except structured as a DAG.
13:27 < erasmospunk> yes, what I am working on
13:27 < bsm117532> Of course once the soft fork takes effect, then one can drastically increase the capacity.
13:28 < bsm117532> Also one needs to trigger the new incentive mechanism of the braid, and payouts that are backward-looking, instead of miners creating their own coinbase txn.
13:28 < erasmospunk> yeah, a kind of future coinbase, right?
13:30 < bsm117532> Yes.  The coinbase would refer to a state 100 cohorts in the past.
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13:32 < erasmospunk> bsm117532: there is one change from the last time we talked. Remember that the ASICs need time to warm up and you cannot change often the work?
13:33 < bsm117532> erasmospunk: Turns out I was wrong about that.
13:33 < erasmospunk> what do you mean?
13:33 < bsm117532> The real issue is validating a block.  So there's a window in which miners are SPV mining after they receive a block.
13:34 < bsm117532> There's a separate issue that has a lot to do with misunderstandings of how p2pool works.
13:34 < bsm117532> But all hardware currently available can retarget in ~ms.
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13:34 < bsm117532> rather, reload work.
13:34 < erasmospunk> ok
13:34 < bsm117532> I'm just about ready to post my code, if you'd like a preview I can send something tonight.
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13:35 < erasmospunk> The SPV mining is due to miners seeing a different previous hash from the stratums of other miner pools
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13:36 < erasmospunk> before they get the block themselves
13:36 < bsm117532> That too
13:37 < bsm117532> But that's what's going on, it's not that the hardware is slow.
13:37 < erasmospunk> in fact the block validation takes very little time if all the transactions are in the mempool
13:37 < erasmospunk> good to know about the hardware
13:37 < bsm117532> Yeah, relief for me. ;-)
13:37 < erasmospunk> this is why I think a sub 512-byte block is important
13:38 < erasmospunk> it can be propagated extremely fast
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13:38 < bsm117532> How about one block per transaction?  ;-)
13:38 < erasmospunk> but you need miner commitments
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13:39 < erasmospunk> I like the idea
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13:39 < bsm117532> You only need super-fast because you're worried about orphans, but you can't completely eliminate that, no  matter how fast or how small your block.
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13:39 < erasmospunk> true
13:40 < erasmospunk> but even with soft fork braids, a node needs to see blocks every 10 minutes
13:40 < bsm117532> if transactions were individually mined, they couldn't conflict anyway unless there's a double-spend.
13:40 < bsm117532> erasmospunk: yes, the bitcoin difficulty target will always remain as the upper difficulty limit.
13:41 < bsm117532> Even if there's only one transaction in that block!
13:41 < bsm117532> That's required to keep the minority non-upgraded nodes following the highest PoW.
13:41 < erasmospunk> so there will be always a bead that meets that target and becomes the true block
13:41 < bsm117532> Yes, always.
13:42 < bsm117532> It's existence is also tied to Satoshi's payout schedule, which must be kept.
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13:46 < erasmospunk> bsm117532: this could work as a sidechain
13:47 < erasmospunk> I was think about the possibility of an internal sidechain
13:48 < erasmospunk> where you can sent in and out in a single transaction
13:51 < erasmospunk> all the coins that are in this sidechain are kept in "anyone can spend" UTXOs
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13:52 < erasmospunk> and once you send to the main chain, the transaction burns the sidechain coins and the miner spends one UTXO to send to your destination
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13:58 < bsm117532> That's one possibility that's been discussed for "extension blocks" as sidechains.
13:58 < bsm117532> And one can view braids this way too.
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13:58 < bsm117532> This is why I tried to avoid the conversation about "how to get this into bitcoin" at Scaling...the conversation often goes off to the weeds, and there are many options.
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14:17 < kanzure> bsm117532: "the only way to get this into bitcoin is using a balanced unicycle fork"
14:17 < bsm117532> Are you quoting someone in particular?  ;-)
14:17 < amiller_> i really like balancing unicycles
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15:11 < jaromil> irc is forever ❤
15:11 < Luke-Jr> ♥ looks nicer
15:11 < Luke-Jr> IMO\
15:11 < jaromil> true
15:11 < jaromil> gosh
15:11 < jaromil> how you do that
15:11 < aknix> <3
15:11 < kanzure> speaking of moderation....
15:12 < aknix> ♥
15:12 < aknix> lololololol
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20:30 < gmaxwell> amiller_: I have to insist now that you reign in peter_r's plagerism.
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20:36 < coinoperated> gmaxwell:  joined channel just now,  what plagiarism has Peter_R committed?
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21:10 < gmaxwell> coinoperated: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1274102.msg13679080#msg13679080 provides some context if you care to dig.
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21:40 < petertodd> gmaxwell: have you published that correspondence?
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21:42 < gmaxwell> petertodd: Peter_R himself published most of it, http://pastebin.com/jFgkk8M3  more of it was also described in this channel with him in the room.
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21:43 < petertodd> gmaxwell: mind editing that post to link directly to that correspondence? want something nicely self-contained to send to others
21:43 < gmaxwell> petertodd: I did, I'll make the link more clear.
21:43 < petertodd> gmaxwell: thanks
21:44 < petertodd> gmaxwell: I delibrately didn't look too closely, precisely to make sure this case is easy to understand :)
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21:44 < petertodd> *deliberately
21:45 < gmaxwell> petertodd: I should probably also add a link to the log discussing this in here.
21:45 < petertodd> gmaxwell: good idea
21:45 < gmaxwell> Though more distant forms of these ideas have been described for a long time (including by you)
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21:46 < petertodd> yeah, and IIRC, I pointed out the potential incentive compatibility problem that you're giving other miners info on what's valid
21:46 < gmaxwell> petertodd: yea, I'm actually unconvinced that it has an incentives problem; but I think it needs to be analyized carefully for strategic behavior.
21:46 < gmaxwell> I just don't know.
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21:47 < gmaxwell> I think it might be fair to say that it's not worth doing an incentives analysis without it fully implemented, as fine design decisions might matter.
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21:47 < petertodd> gmaxwell: with my proof-of-prior-block proposal the problem probably goes away, at least in practice
21:48 < petertodd> also, it's the type of thing where we can't prevent people from doing it
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21:53 < gmaxwell> Yes, so even if it vulnerable to strategic behavior it may be best to normalize it rather than leave it so that only some have access to it.
21:54 < deego> gmaxwell: following the bitcointalk thread. That's the tragedy, isn't it? The cheater can continue to say outrageous things and continue to pretend he's not been proven wrong; he can even continue to "deny, then appropriate."   But, to a lay person, it just looks like two "equal" mathematicians  quibbling over something deeply technical.  The tragedy of being involved in anything that involves other people :(
21:54 < petertodd> gmaxwell: yup, the SPV mining thing has a big problem there, as no-one else has the software
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21:55 < gmaxwell> deego: I really wouldn't care that much except elsewhere he and others attack my crediblity while trying to make a political push to make radical changes to the bitcoin system.
21:55 < gmaxwell> when the preprint of his work went out I immediately contacted andrew miller privately with the hope that it would be handled informally, with Peter R responding that I was "cited" there, ... I see it has not been handled.
21:56 < deego> :|
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21:58 < gmaxwell> I think it's a real shame too, there is a tremendous amount of contribution that can be made in explaining, formalizing, and analizing specific approaches; which doesn't require being disingenious about the origins of ideas. Unfortunately, it seems Peter R's motivations are primarily political, trying to push a large block reparameterization into the bitcoin system without regard for intellectual
21:58 < gmaxwell>  honesty-- and when doing so demands that he dismiss me as some kind of coding monkey, apparently he'll do so.
21:58 < kanzure> i wrote about this too,
21:58 < kanzure> https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/3xkok3/reduce_orphaning_risk_and_improve/cy60r4y
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21:59 < kanzure> https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3ycizh/decentralizing_development_can_we_make_bitcoins/cycex9t?context=1
21:59 < kanzure> https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3yod27/greg_maxwell_was_wrong_transaction_fees_can_pay/cyfluso
21:59 < kanzure> https://np.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3ycizh/decentralizing_development_can_we_make_bitcoins/cycex9t?context=1
21:59 < gmaxwell> I was thinking perhaps my correspondance with PeterR was just too opaque-- communication is a difficut art-- but several people in that thread read the correspondance I had with PeterR and understood the idea just fine.
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21:59 < deego> glad
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22:00 < kanzure> gmaxwell: i think that people don't understand the pastebin, they need their attention directed to specific sections, unfortunately. and additional elaboration/repetition is often helpful when communicating.
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22:00 < petertodd> kanzure: +1
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22:01 < petertodd> kanzure: a writeup with a summary of the situation would help; why I wrote my opt-in rbf article the way I did: https://petertodd.org/2016/are-wallets-ready-for-rbf (and even it needs improvement)
22:01 < deego> (I learned that sad truth a long time ago in my own lifge.  Most everyone pretends; everyone  wants their fame; and will say anything for it.  Never mind what they will do when there's actual control of a money-system at stake! The PHBs (or the general public) is never wiser and is easily fooled.)  I hope in the case of bitcoin, though, that "smart money" sees what's actually smart.
22:02 < gmaxwell> I stand on the shoulders of giants (often petertodd's it seems!); hell I would have been not angry if the paper -- unable to bring itself to mention me-- had attributed the knoweldge to 'folklore'.
22:02 < gmaxwell> (several of my other inventions-- like the ZKCP-- have been cited as folklore in recent academic works)
22:03 < kanzure> i thought your other concern was the paper rested on the usual false assumptions of the author
22:03 < kanzure> btw your bitcointalk post leaves out peter rizun's current signature ("The fall of Blockstream Core draws near.") it's literally his signature on his posts.
22:03 < gmaxwell> kanzure: yes, this paper is also in error, in that it breaks the pre-consensus design in such a way as to try to retaining the size==orphaning.
22:05 < deego> gmaxwell: sad to see that. (the folklore "attribution")
22:05 < kanzure> no he says that attribution was missing
22:05 < deego> yeah
22:05 < kanzure> huh?
22:05 < gmaxwell> deego: Unlike academics attribution is not the primary currency I work with, at least. It matters somewhat but mostly for ego; except in cases where my reputation is under attack.
22:06 < gmaxwell> kanzure: I said in other things my work has been attributed to folklore.
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22:11 < TD-Linux> the most upsetting part of that pastebin is the lack of RFC2822 compliance
22:11 < petertodd> TD-Linux: lol
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22:21 < TD-Linux> in fact it bothered me so much that I at least fixed the quoting (though not line length) http://pastebin.com/gPKm0QcD
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22:24 < kanzure> TD-Linux: part of the value of the other link is that it was originally created by rizun
22:26 < TD-Linux> kanzure, yes, I saw it when it was first posted, but as far as the actual review of the paper goes that part isn't relevant
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--- Log closed Tue Jan 26 00:00:15 2016