--- Log opened Tue Jan 26 00:00:15 2016 00:00 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:01 -!- murch [~murch@p4FE39BB2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:02 -!- zzyzx [~chatzilla@97-90-24-187.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [SeaMonkey 2.39/20151103191810]] 00:07 -!- T23WS [~textual@45.56.159.19] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:36 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:37 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:38 -!- tjader [~tjader@189.60.218.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:38 -!- murch [~murch@p4FE39BB2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:43 -!- tjader [~tjader@189.60.218.22] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:54 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:58 -!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 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[~p15@15.91.145.64.client.static.strong-tk2.bringover.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:06 -!- tjader [~tjader@189.60.218.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:12 -!- tjader [~tjader@189.60.218.22] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:15 -!- sparetire [~sparetire@unaffiliated/sparetire] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:18 -!- mkarrer [~mkarrer@211.Red-2-138-29.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:19 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:22 -!- mkarrer [~mkarrer@75.Red-83-43-123.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:26 -!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:38 < JackH> wow digital assets group is using sidechains for their ledger 02:38 < JackH> first time I heard of anyone using sidechains and not the usual ethereum/eris/wediditourselves protocol 02:39 -!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:40 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:40 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Quit: Bye] 02:41 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:42 -!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has quit [] 02:45 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:48 -!- gavink [~g@184.75.223.211] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:48 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: :)] 03:00 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:04 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:06 -!- RoboTedd_ [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:06 -!- adam3us [~Adium@46-127-137-205.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:07 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:08 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Client Quit] 03:08 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:11 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 03:12 < nsh> JackH, neat 03:12 < JackH> yes really is, finally some more movement and maybe some cool alternative features based on the original satoshi code 03:12 < nsh> (although sidechains-alpha is probably not to be used for any purpose requiring strong doublespend security) 03:12 < nsh> (unless experimental/testing) 03:13 < nsh> it's pegged to testnet still iirc which can be trivially rewritten by several people in china if they got bored enough 03:13 < JackH> I agre, but from a experimental point of view it is great, as we get more eyes on the Bitcoin code 03:13 < nsh> (like bitcoin, except they don't have millions tied up in testnet fidelity) 03:13 * nsh nods 03:14 < JackH> what I see as a really big advantage because of this, is that someone comes up with something that can later be merged into core 03:15 < JackH> right now its what? the same 50-100 people that have build all code 03:17 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:18 < erasmospunk> Question: was there a discussion to commit a UTXO diff for every block? So instead of committing the full UTXO set per block (that is IO heavy), we commit the removed and added UTXOs of this block. 03:19 < erasmospunk> it is much cheaper to calculate: take all the tx inputs and remove them from the UTXO set, and add the tx outputs 03:20 < JackH> doesnt segwit deal with some of these problems? 03:21 < erasmospunk> JackH: if I am not mistaken it only commits to the witnesses 03:21 < nsh> UTXO diffs/deltas have been proposed/discussed before 03:21 * nsh does not know/recall the upshot however 03:22 < nsh> mentioned here: https://botbot.me/freenode/bitcoin-wizards/2015-12-24/?page=1 03:22 < erasmospunk> nsh: thanks 03:23 < nsh> .title http://rustyrussell.github.io/pettycoin/2014/11/29/Pettycoin-Revisted-Part-I:-UTXO-Commitments.html 03:23 < yoleaux> Pettycoin by rustyrussell 03:23 < nsh> .title https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-September/011078.html 03:23 < yoleaux> [bitcoin-dev] Hash of UTXO set as consensus-critical 03:23 < nsh> .title http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/40396/what-are-the-main-technical-hurdles-to-implementing-utxo-commitments 03:23 < yoleaux> spv - What are the main technical hurdles to implementing UTXO commitments? - Bitcoin Stack Exchange 03:24 < nsh> also some musings in gmaxwell's alt-ideas post: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/alt_ideas 03:24 < nsh> a true masochist would also subject themselves to all of this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=204283.0 03:25 < JackH> there is no shortage of improvement proposals 03:25 -!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:25 < JackH> hence why it is probably a good thing that more people outside these channels start using the protocol and test different implementations 03:32 -!- frankenmint [~frankenmi@174-25-38-39.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:33 -!- frankenmint [~frankenmi@174-25-38-39.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:34 -!- mrkent 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[~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Quit: laurentmt] 06:41 < bsm1175321> erasmospunk: bramc has been working on a "merkle set" data structure which I believe is intended for UTXO set commitments and fraud proofs, using proof of set inclusion or absence. 06:41 -!- adam3us [~Adium@62-2-191-249.static.cablecom.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:41 < erasmospunk> bsm1175321: the full set or diffs? 06:42 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:42 < bsm1175321> I don't know whether it can handle diffs. Check the logs he posted a github in the last day or two with some prototype python code. 06:43 -!- tjader [~tjader@189.60.218.22] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:44 -!- adam3us1 [~Adium@blockstream.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:45 * bsm1175321 is very sad to see the arguments between Peter_R and gmaxwell. I am excited to see more peer review in this space. Systematic attribution (via paper citation) can solve some of this, I think. Reddit, IRC, blogs, etc are noisy cesspools and terrible places to place original ideas. That's no justification for dishonesty though. 06:45 -!- adam3us1 [~Adium@blockstream.com] has quit [Client Quit] 06:45 -!- adam3us [~Adium@62-2-191-249.static.cablecom.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:46 -!- adam3us [~Adium@blockstream.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:46 -!- voxelot [~voxelot@2605:e000:1525:802f:18f3:1d02:b6ff:edea] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:48 -!- conner_ [~conner@40.98.62.94.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:48 < bsm1175321> See I just have ideas that no one wants to touch with a 10 foot pole, and I'm safe. ;-) 06:49 < erasmospunk> http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/40396/what-are-the-main-technical-hurdles-to-implementing-utxo-commitments/42591#42591 06:49 -!- YankoRo [~YankoRo__@2001:1900:2104:2::86] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:50 < instagibbs> bsm1175321: it's an interesting strategy of yours ;) 06:51 < bsm1175321> erasmospunk: https://github.com/bramcohen/MerkleSet/blob/master/merkle_set.py 06:52 < erasmospunk> instagibbs: bsm1175321 has good ideas, only to put them in Bitcoin you need a "balanced unicycle fork" :) 06:54 -!- Tasoshi [~Tasoshi@unaffiliated/tasoshi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:59 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Quit: Bye] 07:01 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:02 -!- frappuccino_ [~chrome@37.142.35.136] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:02 * nsh distributes cookies and good-faith tokens 07:03 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-228-102-98.ip191.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:05 < coinoperated> @bsm1175321 you and psztorc should meet down at the bar and share ignore stories :D 07:06 -!- frappuccino [~frappucci@37.142.35.136] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:06 -!- frappuccino_ [~chrome@37.142.35.136] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:07 -!- Guest25__ [~textual@38.125.163.25] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 07:07 -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@216-15-125-203.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: GGuyZ] 07:08 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:08 -!- frappuccino_ [~frappucci@213.57.19.168] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:08 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-228-102-98.ip191.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:09 -!- frappuccino [~frappucci@37.142.35.136] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:09 -!- frappuccino_ [~frappucci@213.57.19.168] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:09 -!- frappuccino [~frappucci@213.57.19.168] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:10 -!- zooko [~user@c-73-217-96-13.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:12 -!- zooko` [~user@c-73-217-16-2.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:14 -!- zooko [~user@c-73-217-96-13.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:18 -!- jtimon [~quassel@126.31.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:18 -!- frappuccino is now known as nodester 07:18 -!- nodester is now known as frappuccino 07:23 -!- ebfull [~sean@73.34.119.0] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:25 -!- markus-k [~markus-k@designnet.work.de] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 07:25 < Taek> it would help if people who didn't know much about protocol design didn't have such strong opinions about how the protocol should be constructed 07:26 < Taek> people spend all their time talking about block size increases when all they really care about is scalability 07:27 < Taek> this is probably not the right channel for this... but I think a huge part of the core problem is the fundamental ideology of the developer majority is different from that of the masses 07:27 < Taek> the developers are prioritizing decentralization above everything else, but the masses are prioritizing scalability and features 07:28 < Taek> Ethereum prioritizes both scalability and featureset, I've been telling people with that ideology to strongly consider ethereum 07:28 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-228-102-98.ip191.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:29 < instagibbs> true, now that Eth has gone down the bonded validator path it's much more like what many people would seem to want. 07:29 -!- se3000 [~textual@38.125.163.25] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:29 -!- Guest25__ [~textual@38.125.163.25] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:31 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Quit: Bye] 07:33 -!- frappuccino [~frappucci@213.57.19.168] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:33 < nsh> it's all grist to the mill 07:34 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-228-102-98.ip191.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:34 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-228-102-98.ip191.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Client Quit] 07:36 -!- instagibbs_ [~instagibb@pool-100-15-134-80.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:37 -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:39 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 07:43 -!- zooko` [~user@c-73-217-16-2.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:44 -!- instagibbs [uid142535@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-emjozrzulddbfwpt] has quit [] 07:44 -!- instagibbs_ is now known as instagibbs 07:49 < bsm117532> Taek: Ethereum will have the same blocksize as bitcoin. 07:49 < bsm117532> Their bonded validator path will be badly broken and destroy the system if they insist on it... 07:50 -!- oleganza [~oleganza@AStLambert-651-1-189-30.w86-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: oleganza] 07:50 < bsm117532> *same blocksize *problem* as bitcoin. 07:51 < bsm117532> The load on individual nodes is proportional to the transaction volume/utxo set size -- they haven't solved that problem. 07:51 < instagibbs> bsm117532, not saying it's a good idea, but it's very similar logic. "full nodes that aren't me will keep people honest" 07:51 < Taek> yeah, but Ethereum has made the choice to give miners control over t he max block size. All the reasons we believe that's a bad idea are being properly tested in Ethereum, people who don't believe the dialog can test that theory in a system that's not got my money in it 07:51 < bsm117532> instagibbs: zero knowledge proofs will keep people honest. But that's a ways out. 07:52 -!- c-cex-yuriy [uid76808@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fawaiczlbztsgsjk] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 07:53 < bsm117532> I'd like to meet psztorc, he and I seem to agree on a great many things... 07:53 -!- zzyzx [~chatzilla@97-90-24-187.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:54 < Taek> he was in Montreal, and he'll probably be at the MIT bitcoin expo 07:56 < bsm117532> Taek: There's precious little info at http://mitbitcoinexpo.org/ -- what's it all about? 07:56 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@4.15.217.43] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:57 -!- AusteritySucks [~Austerity@unaffiliated/austeritysucks] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:58 -!- ebfull [~sean@73.34.119.0] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:59 < Taek> MIT Bitcoin expo is a conference that focuses on academics and cool stuff, and is not necessarily Bitcoin related, but is all cryptocurrency related 07:59 < Taek> this year the speaker selection has been more strict than last year, though last year was ultimately a pretty good conference 08:01 < maaku> Taek: where's the list of spekaers? 08:03 < Taek> I'm not sure if the list is published yet, I will contact the organizers. I believe all the speakers and backup-speakers have been chosen, but not everyone has confirmed yet 08:05 -!- ebfull [~sean@73.34.119.0] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:05 < maaku> Taek: it's already kinda last-minute to arrange travel... 08:05 -!- ebfull [~sean@73.34.119.0] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:06 < Taek> I believe most of the speakers have been contacted at this point 08:07 -!- tjader [~tjader@189.60.218.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:09 -!- fkhan [weechat@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-iazkszllpqwnufyx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:11 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:14 -!- tjader [~tjader@189.60.218.22] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:15 -!- ebfull [~sean@73.34.119.0] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:16 -!- jtimon [~quassel@126.31.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:18 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Quit: laurentmt] 08:19 -!- nuke1989 [~nuke@176.92.212.166] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:22 -!- jtimon [~quassel@126.31.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:26 -!- erasmospunk [~erasmospu@46.166.188.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:27 < nsh> telepresence robots for everywizard! 08:29 -!- adam3us [~Adium@blockstream.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:29 -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@dhcp-18-111-18-208.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:31 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:32 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-228-102-98.ip191.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:35 -!- fkhan [weechat@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-iazkszllpqwnufyx] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:39 -!- voxelot [~voxelot@remote.digitalmoneycorp.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:42 < maaku> Task I mean for attendees 08:42 -!- tjader [~tjader@189.60.218.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:43 -!- arowser [~quassel@106.120.101.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:44 -!- tjader [~tjader@189.60.218.22] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:45 -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@dhcp-18-111-18-208.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: GGuyZ] 08:48 -!- fkhan [weechat@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-ukgqlaaamwglhafr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:48 -!- tjader [~tjader@189.60.218.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:48 < amiller_> gmaxwell, i've forwarded on all of your concerns about Peter R to the other managing editor, Chris Wilmer, who is in the best position to deal with them 08:49 < amiller_> the editorial board is ultimately accountable for Ledger, they're all listed here http://ledgerjournal.org/ojs/index.php/ledger/about/editorialTeam 08:51 -!- zooko [~user@c-73-217-16-2.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:51 -!- arowser [~quassel@106.120.101.38] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:52 -!- zooko [~user@c-73-217-16-2.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:54 -!- phiche [~Adium@193.89.191.214] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:03 -!- WyzBTC1 [~Adium@72.10.98.195] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:03 -!- veleiro [~veleiro@fsf/member/veleiro] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:03 -!- zooko [~user@c-73-217-96-13.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:05 -!- veleiro [~veleiro@fsf/member/veleiro] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:06 -!- [ace]_ [~ace@128.199.135.61] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:06 -!- DougieBot5000_ [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:06 -!- frankenm_ [~frankenmi@174-25-38-39.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:06 < Tasoshi> peer-review is not about the ultimate aim of truth, but about incremental improvements which advance towards a truth 09:07 -!- WyzBTC [~Adium@72.10.98.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:07 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:07 -!- [ace] [~ace@128.199.135.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:07 -!- frankenmint [~frankenmi@174-25-38-39.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:07 < Tasoshi> whether Peter_r or gmaxwell is correct is not the point, not more than the discussion itself anyway, which by incremental steps leads to a better understanding of issues. 09:07 < Tasoshi> No one can say for certain what is absolutely true. Every idea has two sides. 09:09 < Taek> Tasoshi: the issue is less about who is right or what idea should prevail, and more about academic dishonesty and unprofessional behavior 09:10 < Tasoshi> So I find it troubling when gmaxwell takes the attitude of I am right and all else are wrong, instead of the academic attitude of debating the matters and in so doing reaching a greater understanding for the entire humanity. In academia, the way such debates are carried forward is by a counter-paper. If we look for example at all great ideas, they all had two people ferociously arguing against each other. To try and shut down or silence 09:10 < Tasoshi> or dehumanise a party is in no way in the spirit of seaking truth. 09:11 < Tasoshi> Taek, those are just unsubstentiated accusations. There is no judge in science. No one can say what is utterly not true, not by a simple statement anyway. Truth is reached by discussing in an academic form, not by dehumanising or childish accusations of dishonesty. 09:11 < Tasoshi> I am sure edison had a lot of ugly things to say about tesla, or jobs about gates, etc 09:12 < Taek> Tasoshi: have you read the conversations? I have a hard time believing you'd stand by your statements if you have read the exchanges and discussion. 09:12 < pigeons> Tasoshi: please go back and look t the actual actions taken and the actual concerns 09:12 < amiller_> apropo of nothing, i found a bunch of neat (well, depends on your taste) flowcharts about how to handle plagiarism allegations.... although they all seem to kick in once a paper's already published http://publicationethics.org/resources/flowcharts 09:12 -!- DougieBot5000_ is now known as DougieBot5000 09:12 < Tasoshi> You are missing my point. If gmaxwell wishes to engage in an academic discussion he should write an academic paper, rather than try and silence. 09:13 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-228-102-98.ip191.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:13 < Tasoshi> If it is the case that peter_r, an academic, with a phd from my undrstanding, is engaging in dishonest behaviour, then a counterpaper should be so written to explain his factual incorrections 09:13 < Tasoshi> but to sit on irc and dehumanise and call names etc is childish, not academic behaviour, nor a behaviour which seeks truth 09:14 < Tasoshi> it further creates a stiflinf environment in bitcoin as all would wish to not in any way contribute when a judge, mr gmaxwell, suddenly can claim to be the arbiter of truth 09:15 < Tasoshi> these are very basic principles that have been derived from enlightenment 09:15 < Taek> > 09:16 < pigeons> again i suggest you review the situation. you have a misunderstanding 09:16 < Taek> "these are very basic principles that have been derived from enlightenment" -> that's quite the plattitude 09:16 < Taek> *platitude 09:16 < Tasoshi> Taek, truth is sought not by dehumanising 09:16 < Tasoshi> but by research 09:16 < Tasoshi> if gmaxwell wishes to present his own research to rebute that of Peter Rizun then he is welcomed to do so 09:16 < Tasoshi> but to dehumanise is not science 09:17 < Tasoshi> to claim one has absolute truth is not science either 09:17 < Tasoshi> and to try and silence an academic is a moral crime in my view 09:18 < bsm117532> Tasoshi: I don't think the academic high-horse is helpful. I do think people should publish their ideas in a more formal manner than a reddit/bitcointalk thread. 09:19 < JackH> what is their argument about anyway? 09:19 < JackH> rizun/maxwell 09:19 < bsm117532> scroll back... 09:19 < JackH> above when I wrote last as well? 09:19 -!- fkhan_ [weechat@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-rlfbzhglvkibbllt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:19 < Tasoshi> it doesn't matter, basic principles still apply 09:19 < kanzure> http://www.dtcc.com/~/media/Files/PDFs/DTCC-Embracing-Disruption.pdf 09:20 < bsm117532> This morning gmaxwell explained it, there's a post on reddit. 09:20 < Tasoshi> if gmaxwell wishes to rebute an academic paper he should do so with an academic paper 09:20 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-228-102-98.ip191.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:20 < Tasoshi> not by in effect trying to exile knowledge 09:20 < kanzure> Tasoshi: it is wrong to say that good arguments can only be published in papers, that's false. 09:20 -!- fkhan [weechat@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-ukgqlaaamwglhafr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:20 -!- murch [~murch@p4FE39BB2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:20 < kanzure> the barrier for peer review is **not** "all peer review must be submitted in the form of a pdf file" 09:20 < JackH> kanzure, ? that PDF is the argument? 09:20 < instagibbs> do people have to publish an academic paper for lack of citation/plagarism? 09:21 < bsm117532> kanzure: It is true however that papers establish a formal chain of provenance of ideas that is useful. 09:21 < kanzure> bsm117532: nah, that's false too. 09:21 < Tasoshi> kanzure, science has a process for a reason. That process came from enlightenment. If we all recall, prior to the enlightenment we had priests declaring what is true and what is not. 09:21 < kanzure> anyone can make a pdf. 09:21 < instagibbs> bsm117532, he was personally involved in the email chain where the idea was discussed. 09:21 < bsm117532> kanzure: *peer*reviewed*. Peer review generally helps track down citations... 09:21 < Tasoshi> Gmaxwell is acting no different than a priest by trying to excile a very smart academic 09:21 < kanzure> Tasoshi: you are basically claiming that his peer review is invalid because he didn't publish a pdf. you're not making sense. :) 09:22 < bsm117532> pdf is not peer review. 09:22 < Tasoshi> take the ideas to the arena and battle them out, out of it truth comes, but to declare arbitrarily you are right or wrong, this is middle ages behaviour 09:22 < kanzure> that's not how peer review works, Tasoshi 09:22 < pigeons> ok this seems intentional and not misunderstanding 09:22 < instagibbs> ^ 09:22 < Tasoshi> seems 09:22 < instagibbs> Tasoshi, please go somewhere else 09:22 < Tasoshi> many things seem many things 09:23 < bsm117532> This seems to be departing substantially from !topic 09:23 < kanzure> we have explained why you are wrong, your response is something about religion, get lost. 09:23 < bsm117532> !!topic 09:23 < gribble> Error: "!topic" is not a valid command. 09:23 < bsm117532> !topic 09:23 < gribble> This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja 09:23 < Tasoshi> I am sure the pope said Galileo seemed intentional in his declaration, e puo si move 09:23 < Tasoshi> I suppose the judges who hanged socratees thought it was all intentional too 09:23 < kanzure> have you ever heard of plato? socrates? galileo? morons. 09:24 < instagibbs> let's not ignore the fact that Tasoshi can not seem to read at all, much less philosophy 09:24 -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@dhcp-18-111-18-208.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:24 < kanzure> ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18ulbI9k5eA ) 09:24 < JackH> lol this guy is the second crazy in here in the past 2 weeks 09:25 < OxADADA> bsm117532: where is the thread on reddit? 09:25 < maaku> The hanging of Socrates is one if my favorite works by David 09:26 -!- e4xit [~e4xit@cpc92302-cmbg19-2-0-cust1369.5-4.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:26 < kanzure> btw where are our moderators 09:26 < bsm117532> (2016-01-26 00:10:07) gmaxwell: coinoperated: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1274102.msg13679080#msg13679080 provides some context if you care to dig. 09:26 -!- e4xit [~e4xit@cpc92302-cmbg19-2-0-cust1369.5-4.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:26 < bsm117532> (00:42:45) gmaxwell: petertodd: Peter_R himself published most of it, http://pastebin.com/jFgkk8M3 more of it was also described in this channel with him in the room. 09:26 < bsm117532> Let's end this topic. 09:28 -!- jojva [~jojva@53.ip-158-69-209.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:30 < Tasoshi> Sure, why discuss the atmosphere of medieval priesthood around here - I mean the priests don't benefit from that. Let us fully ignore all that enlightenment has told us about truth processes. Let's instead banish the heretics... I mean, if you wish to operate in that sort of atmosphere, then your choices of course, but I am sure everyone agrees that sort of atmosphere has been fundamentally proven to be very wrong. 09:30 < fluffypony> "This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies" 09:31 < fluffypony> please stick to the subject matter. 09:31 -!- zooko [~user@c-73-217-96-13.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:31 < Tasoshi> It wasn't chatting theoretical ideas up to now, but plotting on suppressing academic input. 09:31 -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [+o maaku] by ChanServ 09:31 -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [+o kanzure] by maaku 09:32 < coinoperated> Tasoshi, Peter_R can come in here and defend himself just fine, he has been willing to do so many times. You aren't going to help matters by gradually reworking your hypothesis about in-group behavior into simple ad hominem. 09:33 < Tasoshi> I just thought to defend the principles that have come out from the enlightenment. If you guys disagree, that is perfectly fine, of course. Plenty of places where academic input is actually valued. 09:33 < coinoperated> you're going the wrong direction 09:34 -!- jojva [~jojva@53.ip-158-69-209.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:35 < JackH> talking about theoretical ideas, has anyone seem the MIT paper btw? 09:35 <@maaku> What paper? 09:35 < JackH> Enigma 09:35 < bsm117532> Oh yes, discussed here many times. 09:36 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:36 < JackH> quite a great concept and one of the very few proposals with some sense to it 09:37 -!- frankenm_ is now known as frankenmint 09:37 < bsm117532> I think it needs some work but i generally agree. 09:37 -!- frankenmint [~frankenmi@174-25-38-39.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [] 09:37 < Taek> I had a long conversation with one of the creators (GguyZ) last night, I feel like I have a good grip on what it can and cannot do 09:37 < Taek> though not a good grip on how it works 09:37 <@kanzure> generic multiparty computation stuff? 09:37 < JackH> do we know when there is code for it? 09:37 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:37 -!- frankenmint [~frankenmi@174-25-38-39.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:37 <@kanzure> i feel sort of stupid, i just noticed that i am an op, but minutes ago i was asking for a moderator 09:37 <@kanzure> i would like to apologize to everyone for my negligence 09:38 < bsm117532> Dunno if you saw the message, someone gave you op about 5 mins ago. 09:38 <@kanzure> i'mma mute Tasoshi now until he submits me an essay about the enlightenment 09:38 -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [+q Tasoshi!*@*] by kanzure 09:38 <@kanzure> bsm117532: oh perfect. thanks. 09:39 < Taek> JackH: I believe that there is code that is working now, you can do computation on encrypted data using scripts written in a subset of python 09:39 < Taek> though, I believe as a part of their business model they are keeping portions of the codebase closed source 09:39 < JackH> I like the idea of shared computational resources, although I am not sure if they aim at a "grid" or something lighter 09:40 <@kanzure> Taek: welp if they release it then we can reverse engineer it. 09:41 < JackH> like, could this be used for protein folding? mass distributed computational processing of such? 09:41 < Taek> JackH: I think it's fairly complicated. You pick a group of people to hold the data, and they each get different keys for computing on pieces of the data. The slowdown is somewhere between 10x and 100x 09:41 < bsm117532> Too slow. It's the world's slowest computer. It's effective clock rate is ~kilohertz. 09:41 -!- zooko [~user@50.141.117.12] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:42 < Taek> bsm117532: the enigma team is reporting that the slowdown is at worst 100x, meaning clockrates would be closer to 10MHz, not too bad at all if the claims are true 09:42 < bsm117532> It can do arithmetic but multiplication requires inter-node communication. So that limits your computatoin. 09:42 <@kanzure> garbled circuit compiler thingy https://github.com/tjim/smpcc 09:42 < JackH> yes I would agree if it is general purpose computing, but if its specialized computing that is required, for example like the IBM neural network in a grid, it could work 09:42 < bsm117532> Taek: I don't know how that can possibly be true. It's ping time that limits multiplies. Though you could get MHz on addition... 09:43 -!- phiche1 [~Adium@2.68.205.13.mobile.tre.se] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:43 < Taek> hmm, that was not mentioned in our discussion last night. Though, multiplication is technically just repeated addition, it wouldn't surprise me if they have techniques to optimize that stuff. 09:44 < Taek> this is outside of what I know about it though, so I'll stop speculating here 09:44 < bsm117532> There's information loss in multiplication, and you have to recompute the sharing, IIRC 09:44 < bsm117532> It's pretty fundamental. 09:44 -!- mihar [~mihar@4.16.87.162] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:44 < JackH> they mention this: 09:44 < JackH> Every request in the network for storage, data retrieval, or computation has a fixed price, similar to 09:44 < JackH> the concept of Gas in Ethereum. Unlike Ethereum where every computation is run by every node, 09:44 < JackH> in Enigma different nodes execute different parts of each computation and need to be compensated 09:44 < JackH> according to their contribution, which is measured in rounds. 09:45 < JackH> can be interpreted many ways. either many small proofs or multiple proofs to solve a larger set of data 09:46 < bsm117532> Taek: you can't use the repeated addition trick when you're multiplying two homomorphically-encrypted numbers, because you don't actually know the numbers. 09:46 < Taek> ah yeah, bummer 09:47 < bsm117532> And the domain of x*y is larger than x+y, so if you're operating mod Z you have to recompute the sharing for x*y mod Z. (hence information loss) 09:56 -!- atgreen [~green@CPE687f74122463-CM00fc8d24cab0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:58 -!- voxelot [~voxelot@remote.digitalmoneycorp.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:58 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:59 -!- voxelot [~voxelot@remote.digitalmoneycorp.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:02 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 10:03 -!- nonaTure [~happy@94.155.72.86] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:03 -!- supasonic [~supasonic@172-11-188-117.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:06 -!- brg444 [18257df2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.37.125.242] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:11 -!- CaptChadd [~CaptChadd@2.31.111.47] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:14 -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@dhcp-18-111-18-208.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: GGuyZ] 10:18 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-228-102-98.ip191.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:20 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:27 -!- mihar_ [~mihar@4.16.87.162] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:27 -!- mihar_ [~mihar@4.16.87.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:28 -!- mihar_ [~mihar@4.16.87.162] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:30 -!- erasmospunk [~erasmospu@179.43.176.130] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:30 -!- Yoghur114 [~jorn@g227014.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:31 -!- mihar [~mihar@4.16.87.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:31 -!- rishobot [~quassel@c-73-252-176-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:31 < AdrianG> altcoins are not offtopic here/ 10:32 < AdrianG> ? 10:33 -!- rishobot [~quassel@c-73-252-176-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:33 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:34 < Taek> not at all, as long as the discussion pertains to their academic merits and shortcomings 10:34 < Taek> sales pitches, tech help, etc. are not okay 10:35 < AdrianG> and technical merits only, i assume? 10:36 -!- Emcy_ [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:36 < Taek> yeah pretty much 10:36 < CaptChadd> Hi everyone 10:36 < AdrianG> i just find it very odd, that in a currency/assets area, economic discussions are discouraged. 10:36 < AdrianG> isnt that part of the 'technical' 10:37 < Taek> economics tends to be much more of a dark art, meaning it's hard to understand what causes what 10:37 < Taek> with something like an algorithm, you can break it down and digest it easily 10:37 -!- Starduster [~SD@unaffiliated/starduster] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:37 < Taek> it's a lot harder to talk about the macroeconomic effects of an inflationary vs. deflationary currency. Those discussions typically don't go anywhere, and therefore are avoided 10:38 -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:38 < bsm117532> That said, we depend on incentive mechanisms for Satoshi consensus. 10:39 < AdrianG> which is entirely economic at heart. 10:39 < bsm117532> which are economic. So there's game theory too... 10:39 -!- Burrito [~Burrito@unaffiliated/burrito] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:41 < Taek> and I think it is on topic to say something like 'funding POW security through inflation of the currency is a proven mechanic, however it's unclear what happens when the POW is provided by a fee market, and is a potentially inhibiting factor for scale if, for security, you need to make an artificial supply-shock' 10:44 < r0ach> if it's a discussion of inflationary vs deflationary, all you're really doing by making a currency inflationary is attempting social engineering, but that social engineering is usually bypassed entirely because deflationary options always exist whether it's something like gold, or in current day times, stocks act *mostly* as a finite austrian currency 10:44 -!- CaptChadd [~CaptChadd@2.31.111.47] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:45 < r0ach> so Gresham's law just bypasses your social engineering and goes there 10:51 -!- bramc [~bram@216.9.110.8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:51 -!- bramc is now known as Guest95596 10:52 < nsh> now you're just making up words and putting them in random sequences 10:52 < nsh> that's why we don't do economics chat :) 10:52 < nsh> somewhere between 'we'd like the estimated expectation value of mining to be positive' and 'stocks act *mostly* as a finite austrian currency' is the on/off-topic line. the exact boundary depends on other factors, generally quality and interactability of the ideas being discussed 10:52 < nsh> where an idea is interactable if it's expressed in a scientific manner, using generally well-understood terms of reference as they are generally understood and not requiring too esoteric assumptions or prior lore/theory that will not be received by the plurality of the channel 10:52 < nsh> or something like that. i just clean telephones 10:53 < gmaxwell> r0ach: and yet ethereum exists and has a non-trivial market cap; even though not only is it inflationary, but the future inflation rate isn't even known or commited to. 10:54 < gmaxwell> (they're only commited to it being positive) 10:54 < smooth> gmaxwell: true about not committed to but planned to switch to proof of stake which effectively makes it non-inflationary 10:54 < smooth> of course, when matters 10:55 < gmaxwell> smooth: the POS will still be inflationary. 10:55 -!- raedah [~raedah@mb00536d0.tmodns.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:55 < MRL-Relay> [othe] Not really, you always own the same % of total coins 10:55 < smooth> gmaxwell: i guess it depends how many people stake. if distributed to the existing coin holders, that's redenomination, not inflation 10:56 < instagibbs> MRL-Relay, but it's clearly the people with more Eth that will stake more. 10:56 < instagibbs> well, I say clearly, i mean i think so 10:56 < smooth> instagibbs: most likely, although there are pools 10:56 -!- AaronVW [~ewout@f055179095.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:57 * instagibbs underlines "clearly" to "prove" it 10:57 < gmaxwell> smooth: go look at any of the other POS coins for that: besides, one could make the same argument for mining. 10:59 < smooth> gmaxwell: it is not the same argument for mining, but ill just leave it there 11:01 < Guest95596> gmaxwell, Do you know of anything which gives a good explanation of the cpu/space tradeoffs in the 'obvious' proof of space algorithm? 11:02 -!- Guest95596 is now known as bramc 11:02 -!- Starduster [~SD@unaffiliated/starduster] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:02 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:03 < bramc> I have some thoughts about possible approaches to fixing it, but need to know the underlying problem better first 11:04 -!- tjader [~tjader@189.60.218.22] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:08 -!- oleganza [~oleganza@AStLambert-651-1-189-30.w86-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:08 -!- tjader [~tjader@189.60.218.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:09 -!- tjader- [~tjader@189.60.218.22] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:09 < AdrianG> fixing what? 11:09 -!- tjader- is now known as tjader 11:09 -!- bit2017 [~linker@27.75.174.138] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:10 < bramc> AdrianG, The proof of space algorithm which consists of demonstrating a preimage whose hash is a partial collision with the challenge 11:11 -!- bramc [~bram@216.9.110.8] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:13 -!- zooko [~user@50.141.117.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:13 -!- arowser [~quassel@106.120.101.38] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 11:14 -!- bit2017 [~linker@27.75.174.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:14 -!- arowser [~quassel@106.120.101.38] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:18 -!- raedah [~raedah@mb00536d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:18 -!- AaronVW [~ewout@f055179095.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:19 -!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:19 -!- tjader- [~tjader@189.60.218.22] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:20 -!- Luke-Jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:20 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@104-6-36-162.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:20 -!- Luke-Jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:21 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:22 -!- tjader [~tjader@189.60.218.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:22 -!- tjader- is now known as tjader 11:23 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:25 -!- ale______ [~alex@96.82.80.25] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:26 -!- ale______ is now known as tachys 11:28 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:30 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:30 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:32 -!- raedah [~raedah@mb00536d0.tmodns.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:33 -!- raedah_ [~raedah@mb00536d0.tmodns.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:33 -!- mihar [~mihar@4.16.87.162] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:34 -!- Erik_dc [~erik@d54c620ed.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:36 -!- raedah [~raedah@mb00536d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:36 -!- mihar_ [~mihar@4.16.87.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:38 -!- jannes [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:38 -!- mihar [~mihar@4.16.87.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:39 -!- zooko [~user@c-73-229-199-227.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:43 -!- kang_ [67efe99f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.103.239.233.159] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:45 < nsh> i wonder if you could use rainbow tables as a proof-of-space, which have to be regenerated at each block and must be custom to the private key claiming the mining reward 11:46 < nsh> issue is the challenge being generated without a trust issue due to retention of the key/pt 11:46 -!- mihar [~mihar@4.16.87.162] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:52 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:52 -!- mihar [~mihar@4.16.87.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:52 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:56 < AdrianG> nsh: i.e. network-based RNG? 11:56 -!- mihar [~mihar@4.16.87.162] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:57 < nsh> generating entropy is easy enough. allowing a challenge to be set that can be solved by anyone and validated by everyone without the setting computer having an advantage is more difficult unless it's a preimage search 11:58 < nsh> i don't know about rainbow-tables in the context of hash reversal, only symmetric ciphers really 12:01 < nsh> if you could share the computation of a ciphertext of the input to a hash function in a way that prevents the reconstruction of the input afterwards by some threshold of colluding parties, then i think it's doable 12:02 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:04 -!- blackwraith [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:04 < nsh> oh well actually the tables used to decrypt A5/1 are actually a large amount of reversals of the one-way function of the internal state of the A5/1 stream 12:05 -!- veleiro [~veleiro@fsf/member/veleiro] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:05 < nsh> so maybe it's possible to generate a puzzle without having an advantage using some hash structure 12:05 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:06 -!- supasonic [~supasonic@172-11-188-117.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:06 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:06 -!- mihar [~mihar@4.16.87.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:06 -!- conner_ [~conner@40.98.62.94.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:06 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:07 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 12:07 < nsh> .title https://opensource.srlabs.de/projects/a51-decrypt/wiki/Backclocking 12:07 < yoleaux> Backclocking - A5/1 Decryption - SRLabs Open Source Projects 12:12 <@kanzure> backclocking was outlawed by clock and tower associates 12:13 < JackH> and good tech reason to why we cannot have multiple ports in use for sync on core? 12:13 -!- voxelot [~voxelot@remote.digitalmoneycorp.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:15 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:16 -!- conner_ [~conner@40.98.62.94.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:22 -!- AusteritySucks [~Austerity@unaffiliated/austeritysucks] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:30 -!- mihar [~mihar@4.16.87.162] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:30 -!- iddo [~idddo@csm.cs.technion.ac.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:30 -!- fkhan_ [weechat@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-rlfbzhglvkibbllt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:31 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:35 -!- oleganza [~oleganza@AStLambert-651-1-189-30.w86-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: oleganza] 12:35 -!- adam3us [~Adium@62-2-191-242.static.cablecom.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:36 -!- iddo [~idddo@csm.cs.technion.ac.il] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:37 -!- erasmospunk [~erasmospu@179.43.176.130] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:38 -!- tjader [~tjader@189.60.218.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:39 -!- adam3us1 [~Adium@blockstream.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:40 -!- adam3us [~Adium@62-2-191-242.static.cablecom.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:43 -!- e4xit [~e4xit@cpc92302-cmbg19-2-0-cust1369.5-4.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: Right I'm out!] 12:43 -!- e4xit [~e4xit@cpc92302-cmbg19-2-0-cust1369.5-4.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:43 -!- ericbsb [62abae7a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.171.174.122] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:43 -!- tjader [~tjader@189.60.218.22] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:50 -!- fkhan_ [weechat@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-ygojbeknmhjovatd] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:51 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:52 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:54 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:55 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:57 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:57 -!- voxelot [~voxelot@remote.digitalmoneycorp.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:58 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Client Quit] 12:59 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:02 -!- oleganza [~oleganza@AStLambert-651-1-189-30.w86-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:05 -!- mihar_ [~mihar@4.16.87.162] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:05 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:09 < MRL-Relay> [shen] ring ct crypto library ready for testing : https://github.com/ShenNoether/RingCT 13:09 -!- mihar [~mihar@4.16.87.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:11 -!- e4xit [~e4xit@cpc92302-cmbg19-2-0-cust1369.5-4.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: Right I'm out!] 13:11 < AdrianG> nice. 13:12 -!- memymo [~textual@184-23-230-94.dedicated.static.sonic.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:14 -!- supasonic [~supasonic@172-11-188-117.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:15 < MRL-Relay> [shen] thx 13:18 -!- c-cex-yuriy [uid76808@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lvbvtdanfwcwgxdw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:22 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:22 -!- fkhan_ [weechat@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-ygojbeknmhjovatd] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:23 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:32 -!- blackwraith [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:34 -!- mihar_ [~mihar@4.16.87.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:35 -!- fkhan_ [weechat@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-vudjoqgxntzmbrhg] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:36 -!- adam3us1 [~Adium@blockstream.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:36 -!- conner_ [~conner@40.98.62.94.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:37 < instagibbs> what is "reasonable efficiency" in this case? Cool stuff regardless. 13:39 -!- arowser [~quassel@106.120.101.38] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 13:39 -!- arowser [~quassel@106.120.101.38] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:39 -!- mihar [~mihar@4.16.87.162] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:39 -!- oleganza [~oleganza@AStLambert-651-1-189-30.w86-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: oleganza] 13:40 -!- adam3us [~Adium@62-2-191-242.static.cablecom.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:41 -!- WyzBTC1 [~Adium@72.10.98.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:43 < MRL-Relay> [shen] instagibbs, efficiency is essentially if you did a current xmr transaction and a CT transaction at the same time 13:44 < MRL-Relay> [shen] possibly slightly better since it uses the Liu Wei Wong version of ring signatures instead of XMR current fujisaki/suzuki based ring sigs 13:45 < MRL-Relay> [shen] also much of the storage cost of the CT part should be prunable 13:50 -!- gielbier [~giel____@a149043.upc-a.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:50 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