--- Log opened Fri Jan 29 00:00:18 2016
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00:19 < adam3us> ext-blocks are bad - i am not sure, clearly there are issues however the alternatives evidently have issues also: viz the contentious hard-fork mess
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00:19 < adam3us> maybe side-chain > soft-fork > ext-block > hard-fork > firmsoft-fork > firmhard-fork in increasing coerciveness
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00:50 < adam3us> (and in some ways seg-wit is a simplified ext-block)
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01:05 < smooth> BlueMatt> generally, it seems very anti-bitcoin-ideals...puts too much control in the hands of miners <= how is it not the case that for something implementable as a soft fork the control is not already in the hands of miners?
01:05 < smooth> i.e. if not implemented that is a miner decision
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01:23 < adam3us> yes. that's what i'm thinking what we want is opt-in features. i'm not sure a soft-fork in terms of parameter changes is very opt in either - either drop your economic fullnode permanently to SPV, or opt-in. a rock/hard place "choice"
01:26 < adam3us> however the adopted features should (as far as possible) be opt-in so you can update a fullnode to get security and then elect to not use the feature.  I think the grey area is you can make fungibility reducing or other issues via soft-fork or hard-fork. and another grey area is you can change parameters that affect decentralisation via soft-fork (or other forks)
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08:09 <@kanzure> would it be possible or meaningful to have a transaction format where the transaction to be valid has to include some hashed data from a "random" subset of ancient blockchain history?
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08:36 < Eliel_> Well, at least it would decimate any ideas of ever running a fully validating node without full history.
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08:48 < AdrianG> That would also pad the blocks some.
08:49 < AdrianG> extra 10% minimum?
08:50 < AdrianG> Eliel_: how do you run a fully validating node without full history today?
08:50 < AdrianG> either you have history, or you are not fully validating.
08:52 < smooth> AdrianG: you dont need history only validated UTXO
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09:06 < Eliel_> AdrianG: you only need to have validated the history once to trust it. Doing it more often is superfluous unless you doubt the validation code you ran last time.
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09:07 < Eliel_> so, you really only need the UTXO for a fully validating node.
09:08 < AdrianG> i dont think anyone deletes history after validating it today.
09:10 < AdrianG> Eliel_: if your db becomes corrupted, are you going to trust it? i would keep full history around just to make sure i can re-validate again.
09:10 < adlai> AdrianG: deleting history after validating is precisely what pruning does
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09:13 < AdrianG> adlai: its actually default now?
09:14 < AdrianG> i would keep it around just so that i need less downloads in case it needs to be rescanned.
09:16 < AdrianG> its too small to worry about storage space for now. and the bigger it becomes, i would say the bigger is the incentive to keep a local copy around.
09:17 < Eliel_> AdrianG: All you really need is a digitally signed (made by your own key) hash of the UTXO set and you don't need to verify anything before that point ever again. You can just download it from any source and revalidation becomes necessary only if you can't find a honest source.
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09:20 < AdrianG> the only incentive is you store less, at the risk of possibly downloading a whole bunch more.
09:21 < AdrianG> import wallet - rescan, disk corruption - rescan.
09:21 < AdrianG> its not that uncommon.
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09:23 < adlai> AdrianG: pruning isn't default and really shouldn't be default for the same reasons you've mentioned... there is no incentive for anybody else to altruistically offer you past validation data, so get it while it's still free and keep a bunch of redundant copies :)
09:23 < AdrianG> if it gets into terabyte sizes, are you just going to redownload it?
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09:25 < AdrianG> adlai: maybe its time to start a non-free subscription service.
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09:26 < adlai> too early, wait a century.
09:26 < AdrianG> https://tctechcrunch2011.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/amazon-snowball.jpg?w=738
09:26 < AdrianG> adlai: we'll get there soon enough.
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09:27 < adlai> today, there seems to be rough consensus that it's in Bitcoin's best interest to be as welcoming as possible to newcomers. not in the sense of cheap/free transactions, but rather in the sense of freely available blockchain data, for independent validation.
09:28 < AdrianG> adlai: it would be in the best interest forever.
09:28 < AdrianG> otherwise p2p part will become moot.
09:28 < adlai> [citation needed]
09:29  * adlai can easily imagine a scenario where the only "new Bitcoiners" are children of existing Bitcoiners, who get validation data as part of their weekly allowance. "someday, you'll be old enough to have your own blockchain!"
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09:30 < adlai> and generous altruists subsidize subscriptions for orphans (great, yet another meaning for this word)
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10:25 < amiller_> kanzure, i like that idea, but i expect people would still just outsource that part to some service
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10:37 <@kanzure> amiller_: i think you could make some grinding necessary, maybe. but then they will outsource their transaction signing too :).
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11:03 < Eliel_> kanzure: I think the only way to actually solve that particular problem is to reprogram the users.
11:07 <@kanzure> toxoplasmosis? alright.
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11:21 < Eliel_> I read the wikipedia page about that but I'm still rather uncertain what you were trying to convey there.
11:22 <@kanzure> reprogramming the users?
11:22 <@kanzure> oh you probably meant software clients. oops.
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12:40 < amiller_> here be some research papers http://fc16.ifca.ai/bitcoin/program.html
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13:01 < zooko> The Zcash team is sending various representatives to FC'16! (Not me, too bad.)
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13:10 < Luke-Jr> Thoughts on doing a hardfork dry-run after the whole scalability thing has cooled off? We could change the address version bytes and payment protocol so the new version is incompatible with old, without touching the consensus layer; this would simulate a hardfork at an economic level (as much as possible without economic losses), and from that hopefully we can learn enough to do a hardfork in the future safely.
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13:14 < zooko> Luke-Jr: interesting idea. It reminds me of jtimon's proposal at SB/HK "Let's have an uncontroversial hard fork!".
13:15 <@kanzure> "Proofs of proof of work with sublinear complexity" http://fc16.ifca.ai/bitcoin/papers/KLS16.pdf
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13:15 < Luke-Jr> zooko: well, hopefully the next hardfork proposal will be uncontroversial anyway - this can help prepare for it ;)
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13:17 <@kanzure> "Blindly signed contracts: Anonymous on-blockchain and off-blockchain bitcoin transactions" http://fc16.ifca.ai/bitcoin/papers/HBG16.pdf
13:18 < jtimon> zooko you mean bip99 still in draft waiting for coauthors to just pick up and implement ovious things from the various hardfork wishlists?
13:18 <@kanzure> "Automated verification of electrum wallet" http://fc16.ifca.ai/bitcoin/papers/TVR16.pdf
13:18  * zooko looks at https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0099.mediawiki
13:19 < jtimon> s/ovious/obvious
13:19 <@kanzure> "Why buy when you can rent? Bribery attacks on Bitcoin-style consensus" http://fc16.ifca.ai/bitcoin/papers/Bon16b.pdf
13:19 < zooko> whoa I need to actually pay attention to this, apparently.
13:19 < zooko> Are you telling me that the timewarp attack actually was used against altcoins ?
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13:20 < zooko> And, uh, I'm not 100% clear on the boundary between -wizards material and "take it to your altcoin sandbox" material in this area, by the way.
13:20 <@kanzure> well the boundary is best known when it consists of many angry people yelling at you on irc, so look out for that
13:20 < zooko> N.B. I'm the CEO of the Zcash Co and I spend all of my energy on that nowadays.
13:21 < zooko> kanzure: *lol* Thanks!
13:21 < jtimon> zooko of course it was used against altcoins, that's why almost most altcoins fixed it (probably the fact that most altcoins just forked litecoin was a factor too)
13:21 < zooko> jtimon: huh, I thought it wasn't exploitable in practice. So I guess I really do need to pay attention! Thanks for mentioning it.
13:22 < jtimon> well, bitcoin has much higher hashpower than other altcoins
13:22 < zooko> So, yeah, folks, if a lot of people start yelling at me and I bow out, you'll find me over on irc.oftc.net #zcash.
13:23 < jtimon> it's not that of a concern for bitcoin specifically, but nobody can reasonably contest that it would only good for bitcoin to fix this
13:23 < zooko> FWIW IMHO Zcash is good fodder for -wizards because (a) Bitcoin could grow Zcash-like features in various ways including potentially side-chains and
13:24 < zooko> (b) Bitcoin can learn from Zcash's experience.
13:24 < zooko> But if a lot of others disagree, I won't insist on talking about my beloved baby.
13:26 < zooko> ticketed for Zcash to consider adopting timewarp-defense: https://github.com/Electric-Coin-Company/zcash/issues/696
13:26 < instagibbs> the hell zooko you're not even in that room :P
13:26 <@kanzure> easire to ask for forgiveness than permission. because i am not going to give you blanket permission to spam zcash things forever.
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13:26 < zooko> instagibbs: not on freenode.
13:26 < instagibbs> ahh
13:26 < zooko> instagibbs: tell everyone in that channel to go to oftc before you leave. ;-)
13:26  * instagibbs failure to read first line on my screen
13:27 < zooko> kanzure: yeah, I know.
13:27 <@kanzure> your ticket seems to be copy-paste of the current scrollback
13:28 < jtimon> zooko how could zcash not be on-topic here? I've heard even all freicoin technical design decisions were respectfuly listened to here :p
13:28 < zooko> jtimon, kanzure: okay, fine! I will happily talk about Zcash day and night until enough people tell me persuasively enough to shut up. ;-)
13:29 <@kanzure> do whatever you want, just no more pretext
13:30 <@kanzure> hmm i mean pre-text not the actual word "pretext"
13:30 < jtimon> zooko, don't be so impatient, now you just have to wait for any comment about a design decision that zcash has done differently and talk about it when it's pertinent :p
13:30 <@kanzure> yep.
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13:32 < fluffypony> we've discussed Monero features often enough here
13:32 < jtimon> oh, wait, zooko, instagibbs are there more IRCs other than https://webchat.freenode.net/ ?
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13:48 < zooko> jtimon: yeah, http://www.oftc.net/WebChat/
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13:56 < aknix> https://twitter.com/DecentOS/status/693189422259507204 - Death to the Bitcoin Wizard meme. Great article by @badslinky
13:56 < aknix> https://medium.com/elliotolds/the-bitcoin-block-size-debate-is-not-about-technical-expertise-d3434beb04b2#.mlmrp493p …
13:57 < aknix> i dont even.....
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14:03 < bramc> Hey neat, webchat.freenode.net works
14:04 < bramc> zooko: Fixing timewarp is trivial. Don't copy over that bug. While you're at it you might want to make it that the first cycle after the rewards are halved has the work difficulty halved.
14:04 < bramc> zooko: Other obvious things: Start with p2sh and segwit to begin with
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14:06 < Eliel_> (and do the clean implementation of segwit, rather than the soft-fork version)
14:08 < zooko> We have a ticket for segwit.
14:09 < zooko> We're already based on top of Bitcoin core 0.10.0 so we already have p2sh.
14:09 < bramc> Fixing timewarp is a single fencepost bug fix but it's a hard fork
14:12 < jtimon> zooko it's pretty simple, yeah, trivial to back/forward port most of that trivial commit is actually activation: https://github.com/jtimon/bitcoin/commit/91cceb9ae0061e273865cacc107f49aa6f6879a2
14:12 < zooko> Thanks.
14:13 < jtimon> this one is better for you: https://github.com/freicoin/freicoin/commit/beb2fa54745180d755949470466cbffd1cd6ff14
14:13 < zooko> Thanks for linking to the irc log, kanzure.
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14:15 < Eliel_> aknix: I can't figure out how your twitter comment about that article relates to it. It seems to be talking about something else entirely.
14:17 < aknix> @Eliel_ 1 techinical person and one maybe not so technical person are arguing its not about techinicals. Well it is. The whole article is misleading.
14:18 < aknix> The argument has already gone from governance to "other things"
14:19 < aknix> We have a "leader"? of Classic coming in and conceding that cores development process is better.
14:19 < aknix> Am I missing something?
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14:19 < ibrightly> yes. you're missing the fact that not everything about Bitcoin can be reduced down to technicalities.
14:20 < aknix> Oh look the troll is back
14:20 < ibrightly> you're seriously going to call me a troll.
14:20 < aknix> What a suprise, one who couldnt answer techinicals. In good faith im leaving to keep this room clean
14:20 < aknix> meet me in Slack if you have any comments... You know where I am....
14:23 < ibrightly> you asked a question, i answered. sorry that you didn't care for the answer. Not sure how that's trolling. Bowing out now.
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14:24 < aknix> ibrightly we both know that is not the case.
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14:25 < ebfull> bramc: "While you're at it you might want to make it that the first cycle after the rewards are halved has the work difficulty halved."
14:25 < ebfull> is there a name for this or any other discussion you can point me to?
14:26 < bramc> ebfull No name for it and discussions have mostly happened offline. We can of course discuss in here.
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14:27 < ebfull> i understand it intuitively, i've just never heard of it. fun stuff
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14:29 < bramc> Another thing to throw in there: Switching the PoW function from sha2 to sha3. luke-jr proposed that for bitcoin classic and I don't know if he was trolling, but it's a fairly good idea for a one-time hit to miner power.
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14:31 < Eliel_> aknix: I don't see the article arguing it's not about technical choices. It's arguing that it's about more than just technical choices. Important policy questions that need to be considered by a wider group of people than just engineers.
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14:35 < fluffypony> Eliel_: agreed, I don't think that article is entirely off-base either - "good at C++" != "understands game theory", for instance
14:36 < jtimon> I think luke's point was that an ASIC-reset hardfork is kind of the cannonical controversial hardfork and guaranties the old miners can't touch you
14:37 < jtimon> or something of the sort, I'm just really speculating and didn't read his actual proposal
14:38 < jtimon> in any case, of course, it's not miners nor developers who decide the rules users validate
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14:42 < bramc> What article are we talking about here?
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14:44 < fluffypony> bramc: https://medium.com/elliotolds/the-bitcoin-block-size-debate-is-not-about-technical-expertise-d3434beb04b2#.mlmrp493p
14:45 < aknix> Eliel_,Classic had viable chance to demonstrate a better platform to allow dicussions to be had. (who wouldnt want that) It turns out Classic couldnt deliver that platform nor improve that decision making process. Either governance or techincals, in Classic slack even "big names" are splitting hairs over Techincals or governance. Now the governance battle is over Jtoomim came in conceded that classic had no better solution than core. There are no
14:45 < aknix> mumbers or remote proof of majority/minority
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14:46 < aknix> Pick an argument!
14:46 < aknix> not like it matters... All credibility is already lost...
14:47 < bramc> He has some good points about there being non-technical issues, but I strongly disagree with the claim that the core devs aren't on the whole better at that than non-dev bitcoiners. Some of the big essays supporting bitcoin classic have demonstrated a horrible misunderstanding of basic microeconomics.
14:47 < aknix> Again I will leave this channel for CONSTRUCTIVE reasons. Please dont waste my time!
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15:00 < Luke-Jr> jtimon: ASIC-reset is not controversial at all, in a situation where miners have betrayed Bitcoin
15:03 < jtimon> Luke-Jr: old-algorithm miners would never rationally agree with a an ASIC-reset hardfork? miners are users too, maybe even people as well :p
15:03 < tromp_> if miners want to betray bitcoin, they should have their fpga farms ready to deal with any pow change defenses:)
15:04 < aknix> I think we will find you cant betray bitcoin.....
15:04 < maaku> tromp_ are you presenting cooko cycles at FC 16?
15:04 < tromp_> no, cuckoo cycle was in FC 2015 and has not changed much since
15:05 < tromp_> just figured out how to make it more efficient on GPUs
15:05 < maaku> Just saw you pushed some updates recently and thought you were getting ready for something.
15:05 < tromp_> i'm tweaking it all the time
15:06 < maaku> Would you consider the current code production ready?
15:06 < tromp_> not quite
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15:07 < tromp_> well, the miners can probably be tweaked some more
15:08 < tromp_> but the consensus code has been stable for a long time
15:08 < tromp_> the verification part that is
15:08 < tromp_> that should be production ready
15:09 < tromp_> that is also a rather small amount of code
15:09 < maaku> OK that's the important part
15:09 < Luke-Jr> jtimon: miners are a trivially ignorable minority of users
15:10 < tromp_> just the last 28 lines of https://github.com/Genoil/cuckoo/blob/master/src/cuckoo.h
15:10 < Eliel_> bramc: That there are people horribly wrong on the internet is a fact of life. It doesn't really make a difference if they happen to support Bitcoin Classic or Bitcoin Core, or whatever else. The main issue is that there are a lot of people who have ended up distrusting the Core team. That's not good news for a project that relies on consensus to work.
15:10 < maaku> I'd really like to see cooko cycle used as a hash cash for p2p connection slot priority
15:10 < maaku> Nn
15:11 < maaku> That would give some anti Sybil resistance to the network which we're sorely lacking.
15:12 < tromp_> how many bytes are you willing to devote to the pow, maaku?
15:12 < tromp_> the default is 42*4 = 168 bytes
15:13 < maaku> That's fine
15:13 < tromp_> but going with a lower cycle length should be fine for p2p purposes
15:13 < maaku> As long as version message + PoW fits in a TCP packet
15:14 < tromp_> and how many seconds can a slow client afford to spend on it?
15:15 < tromp_> or minutes?
15:15 < maaku> Haven't thought too deeply about that yet
15:16 < tromp_> that will guide your choice of graph size
15:16 < tromp_> and memory usage
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15:20 < tromp_> also, to reduce the variance, you may want to accept a range of cycle lengths
15:21 < tromp_> but the current code has PROOFSIZE fixed
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15:23 < tromp_> guess i shld update that to have MINPROOFSIZE and MAXPROOFSIZE
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16:37 < jtimon> Luke-Jr: you agree that controversial hardforks should not use bip9 or equivalent "miner signaling" mechanisms for activation, right? I'm not sure what we're discussing, I think you would agree that ASIC-reset is obviously controversial to current ASIC owners and producers. Whether that is "fine" or not is very relative (for starters, we would need to define "fine")
16:46 < Luke-Jr> jtimon: I don't consider the ex-miners to be relevant to the question of whether it is controversial in the community
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17:33 < bramc> Eliel_: The bitcoin core people are clearly worse at PR. But they're better about all the broader ecosystem not strictly technical things as well.
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17:43 < bsm1175321> There's a strong correlation between being bad at PR and being good at things that matter.
17:43 < Eliel_> bramc: That expression itself is an example of how not to do PR. The desired state is not to find out who's better but rather to reach consensus. For consensus the thing that needs to be clearly communicated is that there is a shared common goal. When that is established, then you can discuss the how.
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17:47 < bramc> Eliel_: Consensus is impossible when some people are boneheaded
17:47 < bsm1175321> I apologize for getting sucked in.  Let's keep this topical folks.
17:47 < bsm1175321> ;;topic
17:47 < gribble> This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
17:48 < bramc> I'm *almost* done coding on the merkle set. The very last thing I'm writing is going to be the mark and sweep of a leaf block, which is the center of the whole thing.
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17:54 < bsm1175321> I'm excited to see it and figure out how we can use this bramc
17:54 < bramc> bsm1175321: The intended use is for utxo commitments in blocks
17:54 < bsm1175321> I know.
17:55 < bramc> It's probably useful for lots of other crypto stuff
17:55 < bsm1175321> But it's more generally useful to prove presence/absence in a set, which I think is generally interesting.
17:58 < bsm1175321> I've been thinking a lot about ways to make ZKP's.  Your Merkle Set approach has log(n) size proofs.  I believe the right kind of ZKP could have constant size proofs.
17:59 < bramc> Yes, that's the beautiful thing about ZKPs. They're extremely small and quick to verify.
18:00 < bsm1175321> Using homomorphic encryption of a hash, you can use Fiat-Shamir to create a constant-size proof of knowledge of the preimage.
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18:00 < bramc> Not like I understand the technical underpinnings, but they're very appealing. Unfortunately the other side of the calculation is much more expensive.
18:03 < bsm1175321> What "other side" do you mean?
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18:06 < bramc> bsm1175321: The generation of the proof
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21:49 < Luke-Jr> adam3us: segwit is not an extension block at all
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21:53 < bsm1175321> I think the soft-fork mechanics of capacity increases by bandwidth increases (a la extension blocks) do need to be more carefully described.
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22:05 < adam3us> Luke-Jr: it's related in the sense of sending additional data ignored by old-clients that adds capacity. and it could evolve relatively elegantly into extension-blocks IF people thought it was a good idea. i know it has risks, but evidently so do hard-forks (and firm-forks etc)
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22:16 < Eliel_> is there an overview of the new fork terms somewhere?
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--- Log closed Sat Jan 30 00:00:19 2016