--- Log opened Wed Feb 10 00:00:16 2016
--- Day changed Wed Feb 10 2016
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00:13 < nsh> mm
00:15 < nsh> grover's speedup is fully general, but any algorithm could be trivially tweaked to require more correlations to search than the current workable QCs, until such a time when the science/engineering makes QC scaleable to the same extent as classical logic, which may not even be possible in principle
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00:15 < gwillen> grover's usually doesn't matter asymptotically anyway
00:15 < gwillen> you just have to double all your keylengths once
00:16 < gwillen> (I hedge "usually" but I'm not aware of a case where it does matter)
00:16  * nsh nods
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00:17 < nsh> but i guess i'm suggesting you could write an algorithm that has a simple intermediary state blowup parameter that would expand beyond and feasible quantum computer
00:17 < nsh> *any
00:17 < nsh> but yeah, it's easier just to double keylength
00:17 < nsh> (or security parameter)
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01:01 < phantomcircuit> gwillen, iirc the nsa thing referenced an improvement better than grover but i've no idea if that was serious or not
01:02 < gwillen> yeah I dunno what that would be
01:02 < gwillen> I'm aware of shor, which is significantly better than grover for factoring
01:02 < gwillen> and there are other special-purpose quantum algorithms
01:03 < gwillen> but they're hard to write and there are only a small number of original ones
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01:05 < nsh> any superquadratic speedup would have to exploit [quite particular] problem space structural symmetries and would be very specific to a given algorithm
01:05 < gwillen> right
01:06 < nsh> .title http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2348
01:06 < yoleaux> Shtetl-Optimized » Blog Archive » Quantum query complexity: the other shoe drops
01:08 < nsh> so maybe that's a bit reductively-dogmatic, and we could be on the horizon of modest further polynomial-order separations between bounded-error quantum query complexity and deterministic query complexity
01:08 < nsh> which is quite awesome and amazing but still nowhere near pathological
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01:11 < nsh> --
01:11 < nsh> Flummoxing my expectations once again, Shalev produced the super-quadratic separation, but not by designing any new quantum algorithm. Instead, he cleverly engineered a Boolean function for which you can use a combination of Grover’s algorithm and the Forrelation algorithm (or any other quantum algorithm that gives a huge speedup for some partial Boolean function—Forrelation is just the maximal
01:11 < nsh> example), to get an overall speedup that’s a little more than quadratic, while still keeping your Boolean function total.
01:11 < nsh> I’ll let you read Shalev’s short paper for the details, but briefly, it once again uses the Göös et al. / Ambainis et al. trick of defining a Boolean function that equals 1 if and only if the input string contains some hidden substructure, and the hidden substructure also contains a pointer to a “certificate” that lets you quickly verify that the hidden substructure was indeed there.
01:11 < nsh> You can use a super-fast algorithm—let’s say, a quantum algorithm designed for partial functions—to find the hidden substructure assuming it’s there. If you don’t find it, you can simply output 0. But if you do find it (or think you found it), then you can use the certificate, together with Grover’s algorithm, to confirm that you weren’t somehow misled, and that the substructure really
01:11 < nsh>  was there. This checking step ensures that the function remains total.
01:11 < nsh> --
01:11 < nsh> (ingenious)
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03:25 < waxwing> quote from the princeton book: " Although it’s not used in Bitcoin, proof‐of‐stake is a legitimate alternate model and it’s used in other cryptocurrencies. "
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03:27 < adlai> those currencies are not insecure, they are "differently-secured"
03:30 < waxwing> "Can virtual mining actually work? ​
03:30 < waxwing>  Virtual mining remains somewhat controversial in the mainstream
03:30 < waxwing> Bitcoin community. There is an argument that security fundamentally requires burning real resources,
03:30 < waxwing> requiring real computational hardware and expending real electrical power in order to find puzzle
03:30 < waxwing> solutions. If this argument is believed, then the apparent waste of the proof of work system can be
03:30 < waxwing> interpreted as the cost of the security that you get. But this argument hasn’t been proven, just as the
03:31 < waxwing> security of virtual mining hasn’t been proven.  "
03:31 < waxwing> sorry that was a bit spammy; but it's from chapter 8, where they go into the topic in more detail.
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03:38 < waxwing> i find their position faintly ridiculous, personally, but there you go.
03:42 < adlai> the insecurity of "virtual mining" does seem more of a game-theoretic "proof" than a cryptographic one
03:44 < phantomcircuit> adlai, lol
03:44 < phantomcircuit> amiller, what's up with the proof-of-stake thing?
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05:36 < Eliel_> I'm finding it quite useful to think of a payment channel as a jointly managed wallet with mechanisms for ensuring neither party can take more than their own agreed on share of the coins. As well as a mechanism for updating the share ratio. Aside from that, as long as the parties cooperate, it seems to me it can function as a normal bitcoin wallet in addition to being a channel.
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05:37 < Eliel_> I think you can even make regular transactions out of it without disruptions to the channel feature. Can someone confirm?
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05:39 < adlai> Eliel_: this reframing is especially helpful when you can consider that the wallet can be 'denominated' (in the mind of the counterparties) in a different currency
05:40 < Eliel_> adlai: can you explain what you mean?
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05:40 < adlai> "decentralized bitreserve"
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05:40 < Eliel_> ... oh, brilliant.
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05:43 < Eliel_> adlai: although, is that part trustless? I can't figure out how to achieve that.
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05:43 < adlai> if the counterparties disagree about the "price", worst case is that remaining funds are tied up until the refund thaws
05:44 < Eliel_> ah right, you'd expect the parties to constantly update the closing transaction to match the price.
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05:45 < Eliel_> adlai: I guess that can work with relatively small timeouts.
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06:24 < tromp> gmaxwell: quantum immunity refers to the looking for a cycle within one Cuckoo Cycle instance
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06:32 < nsh> --
06:32 < nsh>  Abstract: In this paper we study and give the first detailed benchmarks on existing implementations of the secp256k1 elliptic curve used by at least hundreds of thousands of users in Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. Our implementation improves the state of the art by a factor of 2.5, with focus on the cases where side channel attacks are not a concern and a large quantity of RAM is available. As
06:32 < nsh>  a result, we are able to scan the Bitcoin blockchain for weak keys faster than any previous implementation. We also give some examples of passwords which have we have cracked, showing that brain wallets are not secure in practice even for quite complex passwords.
06:32 < nsh> -- https://eprint.iacr.org/2016/103
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06:35 < nsh> their results with vanilla libsecp256k1 / i7-3520m 2.9Ghz / 4GB RAm / Windows 8 64bit: 47.2 us / pubkey generation
06:36 < nsh> they claim 2.5x speedup with 1.09GB precomputation
06:37 < nsh> (bonus hilarious list of cracked brainwallet keyphrases)
06:42 < instagibbs> lol dajiahao, should have figured chinese phrases may be common
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09:17 < catern> does anyone know any papers about applications of Bitcoin in networking, accounting for network resources? or applications of digital currencies in general to that?
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09:19 < bsm117532> catern: I just found joystream.co, which pays bittorrent seeders in bitcoin.  Probably not what you're after though.
09:19 < catern> yeah, I'm talking lower-level, TCP/IP-kind-of-level
09:20 < catern> although that's cool too
09:20 < instagibbs> There has been work on monetizing Tor-like stuff.
09:20 < instagibbs> http://www.nrl.navy.mil/itd/chacs/jansen-onions-shallots-rewarding-tor-relays-tears
09:21 < catern> interesting but I'm thinking more at the packet level
09:23 < bsm117532> catern: What do you have in mind?  Cryptographic verification is slow and data-intensive, I'd think it would be impossible to apply at the packet level.  (e.g. a bitcoin transaction is similar in size to a TCP packet...)
09:23  * nsh nods
09:24 < adlai> bsm117532: if you have a channel open with your router, and they can construct the unsigned transaction incrementing by the cost of relaying your packet, all you really need to send across is the signature
09:25 < bsm117532> adlai: If he's thinking about paying for bandwidth, I'm thinking the difficult part is cryptographically proving usage of bandwidth.  OTOH if you're going to trust the router's measurement, a payment channel for bandwidth seems quite straightforward.
09:25 < instagibbs> ^^^ my thoughts too
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09:27 < kanzure> huh now that i think about it, how do ISPs prove bandwidth utilization? do they just forego profo?
09:27 < kanzure> *proof
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09:27 < bsm117532> kanzure: There is no proof.
09:27 < bsm117532> kanzure: It's been known to be a problem if you get DDoS'ed...and get a huge bill...
09:28 < fluffypony> why would they need to prove utilisation? you signed a contract that said they'll measure it and bill you.
09:29 < bsm117532> I don't know what catern is after...I'm just thinking out loud... ;-)
09:29 < instagibbs> fluffypony, i thought we were talking about routers as well...
09:29 < instagibbs> like, along the way
09:29 < kanzure> fluffypony: heh that's a classic scam :)
09:29 < fluffypony> kanzure: I was just thinking that
09:29 < fluffypony> just skim 10% on top of it
09:29 < fluffypony> you'll make it back on overuse charges
09:29 < fluffypony> if anyone complains, blame an error in the monitoring system and credit them, and then set the NOSCAM flag on their account
09:30 < instagibbs> once we have paid-by-LN HORNET running on our routers, we should be good, right? :)
09:30 < kanzure> i don't think that's enough, instagibbs
09:30 < instagibbs> missed my /s tag
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09:30 < instagibbs> gotta put a space in irc /s
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09:31 < fluffypony> yeah we need more names like HORNET
09:31 < fluffypony> someone rename the Bitcoin PoW to OVERDRIVE, SHA-256 just isn't cutting it
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09:32 < wumpus> hah, if you have trouble coming up with a name there's always http://www.nsanamegenerator.com/
09:33 < fluffypony> nice
09:33 < fluffypony> "TROWELMASCARA" - an excellent choice
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09:38 < phantomcircuit> wumpus, TWISTEARTH
09:38 < phantomcircuit> it even sounds like a hash function
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09:43 < warren> https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/452h4j/idea_how_to_save_blockchain_space_for_micro/  <--- somebody needs to be pointed at the cut through posts
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09:45 < bsm117532> Has anyone implemented cut through?
09:45 < catern> kanzure: i don't really know how ISPs prove bandwidth utilization either, the mechanism is probably something like "take a random sample of packets coming from customer link over time and add up their sizes"
09:46 < bsm117532> catern: This is what most ISP's do: http://www.semaphore.com/blog/94-95th-percentile-bandwidth-metering-explained-and-analyzed
09:47 < catern> wow, that's not a lot of samples
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09:47 < catern> anyway
09:48 < catern> i always thought one of the big putative applications of digital currency in the 90s and early 00s was "we can use it to do accounting for network resources"
09:49 < phantomcircuit> catern, have you seen the payment channels work?
09:50 < catern> no but it doesn't really look relevant?
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09:53 < bsm117532> catern: With a payment channel you can pay incrementally as you use bandwidth, by passing signed transactions back and forth.
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09:54 < catern> sure but has anyone actually done this
09:56 < bsm117532> https://news.bitcoin.com/bitmesh-offering-internet-connectivity/
09:57 < adlai> ^^^ WARNING: any URL may lead directly or indirectly to COIN-STEALING MALWARE! ^^^
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09:59 < zooko`> adlai: I'd suggest you don't need to repeat that warning in this channel. (I know you're a bot.)
09:59 < zooko`> I don't know who's in charge of adlai.
09:59 < zooko`> catern: there was a paper that was beloved of the cypherpunks called "The Digital Silk Road" I think it was named. It wasn't about drugs.
09:59 < zooko`> It was about micropayments for packet routing.
10:00  * adlai just doesn't like the association of bitcoin as a .com, the tulip bubble associations are bad enough
10:00 < zooko`> Oh, sorry, I confused you with a bot.
10:00 < fluffypony> hah ha
10:00 < fluffypony> adlai is a bot, just written in LISP
10:00 < zooko`> Now I remember that you're the guy with the crazy auto-centralized-exchange-using-tool.
10:00 < catern> zooko`: author? year? I can't' seem to find the text
10:00 < zooko`> :-)
10:00 < bsm117532> Was just the first thing I googled.  How's this instead?  ;-) https://www.bitmesh.network/
10:01 < zooko`> catern: I think it might have been... Norm Hardy and Eric Dean Tribble ??
10:01 < zooko`> In ... the early 90's ?
10:01 < catern> http://www.virtualschool.edu/mon/Bionomics/Extropians/HardyTribbleSilkRoad.html
10:01 < zooko`> Yep, that was it.
10:01 < catern> looks like it
10:01 < adlai> zooko`: right, that one is the bot
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10:02 < bsm117532> Wow haven't seen Extropianism in a long time...
10:02 < zooko`> :-) I love those guys. Norm Hardy and E. Dean Tribble were mentors and heroes of mine.
10:03 < zooko`> May they live forever.
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10:03 < adlai> so say we all.
10:03 < bsm117532> zooko`: Indeed that's the goal. ;-)  I was big into Transhumanism back in college...
10:04 < adlai> woody allen was the original extropian: "I don't want to achieve immortality through my work. I want to achieve it by not dying."
10:04 < zooko`> :-)
10:04 < kanzure> i have been carefully raiding extropian content for a few years now, http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/extropians/
10:05 < bsm117532> Transformation, Uploading, and Sexual Engineering, by Nick Szabo.doc
10:05  * bsm117532 reels
10:06 < kanzure> bsm117532: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/hplusroadmap
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10:19 < catern> what would have seemed more likely in retrospect to me is not a digital currency eventually being used for paying for packets, but rather network resource accounting methods eventually being used as a digital currency
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10:34 < fluffypony> catern: so proof of bandwidth?
10:34 < catern> no idea
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10:35 < catern> i'm just saying that the networking field has good incentives to come up with good useful resource accounting methods
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10:35 < catern> that work well
10:35 < catern> because they have a direct application
10:35 < catern> that work well between mutually distrustful users*
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10:37 < catern> unfortunately i think networking today is all about going fast, and so "only use your fair share" is enforced by social pressure...
10:37 < catern> (because enforcing it in hardware is slower than a naive router)
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10:57 < bsm117532> catern: But again the hard part is cryptographic proof of usage -- that's slow and difficult if not impossible to verify.
10:59 < catern> oh, i don't know what technique exactly would be used
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11:00 < catern> just that if there was one that worked for networking accounting and actually got deployed for that purpose, it'd probably work as a general currency too
11:02 < bsm117532> catern: You might be interested in KSI -- you could Merkle up all the packets in principle. https://eprint.iacr.org/2013/834.pdf
11:03 < bsm117532> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hash_calendar
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11:04 < bsm117532> It seems like verification would require storage of all packets though, which I doubt anyone would want to do.
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16:47 < JackH> https://github.com/utxo/wheels/wiki kanzure for you
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22:09 < coinoperated> @kanzure:  what is Sam Rose up to these days
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22:10 < coinoperated> all the links on his p2p Wiki page go to dead/stale/abandoned-looking projects
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--- Log closed Thu Feb 11 00:00:30 2016