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07:06 < bsm117532> Taek: interesting observation.  Even mining at the transaction level, we can't fundamentally prevent outsourcing of mining.  The best we can do is something like signing a PoW with the same key as the transaction.  But there will be people who are willing to let a miner/bank entity hold their keys, so will outsource anyway.  I do think transaction censorship will be a big issue in the coming years.
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07:15 < bsm117532> In fact, one can easily argue that mining at the transaction level with such proofs might encourage the creation of mining/bank type entities who can scale, which I doubt anyone around here wants...
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07:30 < bsm117532> Also, dammit.  I've been thinking I *wanted* transaction-level mining for decentralization purposes for some time...
07:33 < instagibbs> if transaction censorship becomes a thing, expect a swift PoW HF
07:34 < instagibbs> if you can figure out edge mining, that'd be great too ofc
07:34 < belcher> how can we detect that that censorship is happening ?
07:35 < instagibbs> inside the network is harder, gmaxwell had an idea to do it
07:35 < instagibbs> you keep tabs of transactions that should be confirming, but don't, and once it "takes too long" you basically shut down confirmations. I don't recall all the details.
07:36 < instagibbs> meta-network, you'd just say "hey my huge fee txn isn't confirming"
07:36 < bsm117532> FWIW, transaction-level mining with a braid is pretty straightforward, the problem is the computational complexity of organizing the braid transactions as it scales, which, with my naive incentive model scales as O(n^3) unfortunately, but I'm trying to avoid premature optimization and think about the fundamental issues.
07:37 < instagibbs> not sold on braids, but it seems self-mining would ensure it will not conflict with other blocks
07:38 < bsm117532> Well with self-mining your orphan problem becomes a whole lot worse, so you basically need a braid, or something similar.
07:38 < Eliel_> bsm117532: outsourcing is probably inevitable, but it seems to me it'd be unlikely to create centralization on the same level as we have now.
07:38 < Eliel_> and puts the users in control of who gets rewarded with their transaction fees.
07:39 < smooth> i argue putting the users in control is more centralizing
07:39 < bsm117532> Eliel_: I'd really prefer that there was no centralization and no outsourcing at all.
07:39 < bsm117532> There's no fundamental reason why the supercomputers in our pockets can't be doing the work.
07:40 < bsm117532> Just algorithmic reasons that we haven't figured out...
07:41 < Eliel_> maybe require a PoW for each input used but so that the outputs don't matter. That way it can be precalculated by the wallet before it's apparent what the user wants to send.
07:42 < Eliel_> up to a few minutes of computation could potentially be acceptable in such a case.
07:42 < smooth> thats clever but still has battery issues
07:43 < Eliel_> smooth: pretty minor if you ask me. One PoW per incoming transaction.
07:43 < Eliel_> Most people don't get enough incoming transactions that they'd even notice.
07:43 < smooth> Eliel_: well if you consider that an entire battery charge is about 1/10 of a USD cent it is hard to get enough mining that way
07:43 < bsm117532> Eliel_: well if we decouple PoW from coin allocation, the only use for PoW becomes spam prevention, and we don't need huge mining operations, because who is going to spend millions making ASICs?
07:44 < smooth> bsm117532: if you are using pow only for spam prevention then where does consensus come from?
07:45 < Eliel_> smooth: PoW for spam prevention isn't incompatible with using that same PoW for consensus.
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07:45 < bsm117532> smooth: Why wouldn't the highest-work rule work there?
07:45 < smooth> Eliel_: sure but how secure will it be if the amount of work is so small?
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07:46 < instagibbs> bsm117532, I meant in the braids setting, just throat clearing :P
07:46 < bsm117532> smooth: I often think of the resource expenditure of mining as a hedge against fraud, so you need the resource expenditure in mining of honest people to be greater than the resources of the criminal element.
07:46 < Eliel_> smooth: unforunately, I have no answer to the question of "what is sufficient PoW level for secure network?"
07:47 < smooth> Eliel_: agree
07:47 < bsm117532> instagibbs: no offense taken.  The idea needs fleshing out still.
07:51 < bsm117532> smooth, Eliel_: also I continue to be upset that law enforcement is utterly failing in the internet era, and we're having to combat criminals ourselves with economic weapons...
07:52 < Eliel_> bsm117532: I tend to think these economic weapons are actually superior to law enforcement. So, overall, I'm not too unhappy about it.
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07:54 < bsm117532> Eliel_: It certainly is an interesting way to distribute the cost of law enforcement, as opposed to taxes->government->police
07:54 < bsm117532> Mostly I'm talking about the spam in my inbox, since I'm unwilling to give in to centralization and just use gmail.  ;-)
07:55 < bsm117532> You can tear sendmail from my cold, dead hands...
07:55 < Eliel_> gmail certainly does an excellent job of spam filtering.
07:56 < bsm117532> Did I mention that hashcash was good idea and I wish it had been put to its original purpose?  ;-)
07:56 < Eliel_> but I agree, there's a need for a decentralized spam filtering solution that could get close.
07:57 < Eliel_> well, if you could manage to get spam filters to reduce their spam scores for mails that come with a PoW included, that'd probably be a good start in getting it deployed and usable.
07:58 < Eliel_> once that is in place, email software would get an incentive to implement PoW generation
07:58 < bsm117532> Eliel_: good idea, and that's pretty simple.  Why hasn't it happened?
07:58 < Eliel_> I suspect no-one took it on themselves to advocate for it strongly enough.
07:59 < Eliel_> do we even have a formal specification?
07:59 < bsm117532> Someone decided to turn hashcash into a crypto-currency instead.  ;-)
07:59 < Eliel_> if there's no formal specification, making one would be a good start.
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08:00 < bsm117532> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashcash
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08:00 < bsm117532> https://spamassassin.apache.org/full/3.0.x/dist/doc/Mail_SpamAssassin_Plugin_Hashcash.html
08:00 < Eliel_> would that happen to be used by default?
08:01 < bsm117532> https://pthree.org/2011/03/03/the-sad-state-of-hashcash/
08:02 < bsm117532> Eliel_: don't think so.
08:03 < Eliel_> ok, that'd be the next step then... I wonder why it's not on by default. That really puts a damper in getting it used more
08:04 < bsm117532> Well at this point we really need to change the algorithm so bitcoin asics can't be used for it.  ;-)
08:04 < Eliel_> I didn't think they calculated sha-1 :P
08:04 < Eliel_> but yes, algorithm needs revising. sha1 is ancient
08:05 < bsm117532> Oh you're right, it is sha-1...
08:06 < Eliel_> Also, I think it needs a dynamic algorithm for adjusting the difficulty level based on data about the actual mail that's coming through
08:09 < Eliel_> although, perhaps not a cutoff but rather as a weight parameter.
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08:13 < Eliel_> and for that it'd be necessary for the header to also include the intended difficulty target so it won't sometimes give more weight than was intended.
08:14 < bsm117532> It should probably be challenge-response: my spam heuristics rate your mail as a 3.2 spam score, so please provide a hashcash header with exp(3.2) work...
08:15  * bsm117532 's viagra jokes now take 17 hours to be delivered...
08:15 < Eliel_> :D
08:17 < Eliel_> but yeah, that could perhaps work. If enough mail systems start sending rejection messages with instructions on how to get the mail through, it'd slowly start to spread perhaps.
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08:17 < bsm117532> Yeah I'm afraid that false-positives in spam have cost me personally...would be happy to spin CPU to deliver an important mail.
08:18 < bsm117532> Even 17 hours late.  These jokes are damn funny.
08:18 < Eliel_> I don't know about the joke you're talking about, but these comments are funnier :P
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10:23 < maaku> high performance STL-like algorithms : https://github.com/electronicarts/EASTL
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12:17 < Taek> <smooth> i argue putting the users in control is more centralizing ===> what? Why?
12:21 < Taek> <bsm117532> There's no fundamental reason why the supercomputers in our pockets can't be doing the work.
12:21 < Taek> economies of scale largely prevent consumers from doing efficient hashcash
12:21 < JackH> is ZeroMQ going to be stand alone or will it be callable via bitcoin-cli?
12:21 < Taek> a mining facility can hash at 1000x the efficiency of a consumer computer today, which means any meaningful spam protection would need to be applied by professionals
12:22 < Taek> theoretically speaking, it seems unlikely that we'd ever get it under about 10x. tromp is working on some stuff to help with that but I'm dubious about the long-term potential
12:23 < Taek> even if you got it down to 2x, it's still a lot cheaper to send a packet to a datacenter and ask them to do your hashing. No need for you to burn expensive electricity when they're rigged up to {some advantage}
12:24 < Taek> I don't think this is a bad thing as long as there's a reasonable guarantee that you can get anything 'signed' that you need signed by POW. One central player will lose their customers if they become selective about what they sign, people will pay premiums if needed
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12:25 < Taek> so I think it would be valuable to have a cryptocurrency where all the POW is performed on the fringes. It adds a lot of decentralization
12:33 < adam3us> an advantage of hashcash vs DKIM etc is it's anonymous where DKIM / SPF add unintended non-repudiation signatures.
12:34 < adam3us> the problem is spam, 'solving' it by identifying people isnt really solving. spammers have identity too, and can rent/buy/identity fraud 1000s of identities.
12:39 < Tiraspol> you guys are nerds
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12:51 < JackH> anyone here has more info about the upcoming ZeroMQ?
12:51 < JackH> will it interface via API's or be a stand alone tool wrapped on tcp?
12:52 < Taek> JackH: I'm not sure what you are asking about, but you probably want to be in #bitcoin-dev
12:52 < JackH> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/zmq.md
12:52 < MRL-Relay> [othe] dunno for bitcoin but xmr uses it for middleware stuff, like wallet talking to the daemon etc. should be the same on btc
12:54 < JackH> The ZeroMQ feature in Bitcoin Core requires ZeroMQ API version 4.x or newer. Typically, it is packaged by distributions as something like libzmq3-dev. The C++ wrapper for ZeroMQ is not needed.
12:54 < JackH> In order to run the example Python client scripts in contrib/ one must also install python-zmq, though this is not necessary for daemon operation.
12:54 < JackH> but does the daemon have its own set of API's or does this come via the -cli interface?
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