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02:03 < maaku> careful you'll find many of the authors here ;)
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06:49 < bsm1175321> maaku: heheee I know, I'm just not the intended audience of that paper.  ;-)
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08:20 < JackH> what is a precursor to the blockchain model used in Bitcoin? what is the closest we come to it practically? There must be better or more elaborate solutions than a DB with API key's and CRON jobs as backups
08:21 < adlai> there have been mentions of git, although the reason hash blocks are chained is rather orthogonal to bitcoin's trust minimization through chained PoW
08:21 < JackH> and I am not thinking the crypto attempts here, like mojonation or b money/bitgold
08:22 < JackH> yes, well, I am not even looking for that in specific, but more like a database storage model that allows for managed signing, a bit like blockstreams model
08:22 < JackH> aka liquid
08:23 < adlai> git, with signed tags/commits?
08:23 < bsm1175321> JackH: Take a look at PAXOS, Raft, and PBFT.
08:23 < JackH> ah yes someone mentioned PAXOS before
08:23 < bsm1175321> They seek to "identify" nodes.  Bitcoin/PoW replaces identification of nodes with proof of work.
08:23 < adlai> BGP might fit this dragnet?
08:24 < JackH> I was more looking at this in terms of big data, rather than security, but big data with a shared db space
08:24 < bsm1175321> There are some great presentations about Raft.  People are finally starting to grok that "permissioned blockchains" are really PBFT in disguise -- and totally unused in the shared db space.
08:25 < bsm1175321> So the relevant topics in the shared db space are PAXOS, Raft and similar projects (e.g. Apache Zookeper)
08:25 < JackH> awesome, thanks bsm1175321, as I would like to have this when people talk about BLOCKCHAIN as some sort of magic trick, when they actually mean Bitcoin
08:26 < bsm1175321> JackH: They're always (depending on the context/assumptions) going to land on PBFT or Proof-of-work as what they actually mean when they say "blockchain".
08:27 < JackH> I totally agree, its just frustrating as I did not have any other model
08:27 < JackH> now I do
08:27 < JackH> so when someone decides to speak stupid about blockchain I can show them these models
08:28 < JackH> gonna read up on them to understand what they do exactly
08:28 < JackH> http://fortune.com/2016/02/18/blythe-masters-blockchain/
08:28 < JackH> this is a good example of that
08:28  * bsm1175321 just undercut his paid consulting work... :-/  But none of this is secret.
08:29 < bsm1175321> Yes, Masters/DAH do grok that PBFT is what they're really after.
08:29 < JackH> “The technology,” she says, describing the cryptographic masterstroke in laymen’s terms, “is simply a newer, better, more sophisticated form of database technology.”
08:29 < JackH> this is frustrating to read
08:29 < bsm1175321> I'm rather happy that DAH has come out and stated that directly, it cleans up a lot of confusion in the space.
08:29 < instagibbs> don't read it then :)
08:30 < JackH> haha
08:30 < JackH> problem is all the clones go into repeat mode after they read the articles
08:30 < instagibbs> liquid/fedpeg is nice in the sense that bitcoin companies already use bitcoind. You get some level of BFT depending on the setup, and people understand the underlying protocol since it's just signatures instead of mining.
08:32 < JackH> yeah in this respective it makes perfect sense
08:32 < bsm1175321> instagibbs: I worry that "signing blocks" is naive and does not take into account the considerable literature on BFT.  It's also only able to tolerate 33% failure/fraud rate, and as soon as you decide you're going to allow dynamic membership, you open up security holes big enough to drive a truck through.
08:33 < JackH> what is BFT doing in this casE?
08:33 < bsm1175321> That said, PBFT is a real thing and has its uses.
08:33 < bsm1175321> JackH: don't understand your question...
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08:34 < JackH> I mean, from my understanding BFT wont matter much in Liquid since its perfectly pegged to BTC, so its value cant be lost?
08:35  * adlai cuts out one line from JackH's fortune.com link: "Bitcoin happens to be one use-case for the technology, It is actually a distinct invention with its own benefits"
08:35 < adlai> amazing what magic is made by omission of unimportant words
08:36 < JackH> the article is garbage
08:36 < JackH> but, people read it, and believe it
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08:40 < instagibbs> JackH, it's essentially a huge multisig wallet
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08:41 < bsm1175321> I don't think BFT has any role to play in Liquid, but someone correct me...
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08:46 < pigeons> JackH: someone mentioned zfs slef validating merkle tree as a similar structure to bitcoin blockchain that preceded it
08:47 < JackH> zfs slef??
08:47 < pigeons> self
08:47 < pigeons> zfs
08:47 < JackH> ahh
08:48 < JackH> well someone somewhere probably used a db with some of the features found in Bitcoin, like merkle-tree's or multisig access or similar
08:48 < pigeons> zfs has sha256 hashes as tree for integrity
08:48 < JackH> just wondered to what extend different approaches were used. Most DB's seems to be rather simplistic in term of shared access
08:48 < pigeons> even some convergence features
08:48 < bsm1175321> JackH: The multisig/crypto is often conflated with access control of nodes.  They're different things.  There's no reason you can't add validation rules and signatures to a standard database.
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08:49 < JackH> I totally agree
08:49 < bsm1175321> (but no one does it, yet -- it's application layer logic)
08:49 < JackH> just trying to get an overview
08:49 < JackH> I am speaking at a conference
08:49 < bsm1175321> Oh, what conference?
08:49 < JackH> and something tells me it would be a good idea to bring up "regular non blockchain models"
08:49 < instagibbs> bsm1175321, eventually I think there's supposed to be a liquid fedpeg whitepaper, I'll let you know
08:50 < instagibbs> whitepaper*
08:50 < JackH> http://www.terrapinn.com/conference/cyber-security-show/
08:51 < bsm1175321> JackH: Jeez you have the GCHQ director speaking.  That should be fun.
08:51 < JackH> ah well, doesnt matter
08:51 < JackH> thing is this whole blockchain debate
08:52 < JackH> that has gone way of course
08:52 < JackH> too much misunderstanding, too much magic dust when people explain it
08:52 < JackH> its seriously insane that a billion dollar industry is popping up around something that is partially made up
08:53 < bsm1175321> Hey I'm happy to get paid to correct their misconceptions. ;-)
08:53 < JackH> everyone says that ;)
08:53 < JackH> its on a rinse repeat mode daily
08:54 < JackH> mention Bitcoin however, and people look at you weird
08:54 < JackH> or....more like everyone collectively choose to forget about it
08:54 < pigeons> so "Blockchain" is free, unlimited, anonymous, transparent storage that makes it ok to skip settlement processes
08:54 < JackH> that of which we do not speak sort of feeling
08:54 < bsm1175321> "The open-source PBFT code initially provided by Castro and later modified by others has been publicly available, improved, and fine-tuned for several years, and while readily sized up by the academic community for research purposes, it has not been used in practice in real-world systems." -- http://arxiv.org/abs/1110.4854
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08:55 < bsm1175321> Still the case AFAIK 5 years later.
08:55 < JackH> hmm
08:56 < JackH> this is quite high level
08:56 < JackH> more like a generalisation of the topic
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09:23 < maaku> JackH: if you think "git with signed commits" is a precursor to bitcoin, check out monotone
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09:24 < fluffypony> <3 monotone
09:27 < JackH> thx maaku, this looks as well like it comes close to something like what I was thinking
09:29 < fluffypony> JackH: all those speakers look angry
09:29 < JackH> heh
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09:35 < stonecoldpat> just seen this; might interest some people https://bitcoinschool.gr/
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09:36 < JackH> that water looks amazing
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10:35 < bsm1175321> Has anyone else been following the Ethereum PoS plans?  I've been going back and forth with Vitalik on his blog and I think he's just totally on the wrong track.  It comes down to his idea of "weak subjectivity" which basically means "get the chain tip out of band" -- like on the web (because no one could possibly make a false website).
10:35 < bsm1175321> https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/11/25/proof-stake-learned-love-weak-subjectivity/
10:36 < bsm1175321> I'm utterly unconvinced there's anything here, and will be extremely disappointed if Ethereum goes this direction.  What do the rest of you think?
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10:36 < bsm1175321> And: https://blog.ethereum.org/2015/12/28/understanding-serenity-part-2-casper/
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10:42 < MRL-Relay> [othe] PoS is always nice to kill miners from dumping coins, i think thats their sole real reason to go that route bsm :) they are more a silicon valley startup then a cryptocurrency project anyway.
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11:09 < fluffypony> bsm1175321: "just get it from a trusted node"
11:09 < fluffypony> (that's from the ZeroCash whitepaper)
11:14 < bsm1175321> Sounds like a great way to have long-lived forks.  There's going to be absolutely no consensus about what defines a "trusted node" without centralization.
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11:19 < ebfull> in zerocash the trusted third party is only trusted to do a secure one-time setup of the parameters of the system. the parameters are not subjective
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11:23 < fluffypony> ebfull: uh, no, not for the attack vector the whitepaper is referring to
11:24 < fluffypony> "To mitigate such attacks, users should check with trusted peers their view of the block chain and, for sensitive transactions, only spend coins relative to blocks further back in the ledger (since creating the illusion for multiple blocks is far harder)."
11:25 < ebfull> that's an attack against anonymity that does not affect consensus
11:26 < fluffypony> we'll file this one under "I don't know the product I'm working on"
11:26 < fluffypony> ok bro, good chat.
11:27 < ebfull> nice one
11:28 < fluffypony> !bash 13
11:28 < gribble> Error: "bash" is not a valid command.
11:28 < fluffypony> pity
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11:52 < FXpro> hi
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13:42 < smooth> bsm1175321: it is somewhat odd that DAH and others continue to talk about "the technology behind bitcoin" if they understand they are after PBFT when PBFT has little to nothing to do with Bitcoin
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13:46 < fluffypony> smooth: I like to think of it as "Bitcoin finds away AROUND PBFT without solving it", but somehow PBFT / BGP come up all the time
13:46 < smooth> Yes but what do they mean by "the technology behind bitcoin" ? It seems useless to them.
13:49 < fluffypony> maybe they say "the technology" but they mean "the network"
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13:56 < midnightmagic> either way the floodfill network or the PoW blockchain, whichever conference or group or person who is advising them in such a way that they all say exactly the same words when describing what they think they're taking from bitcoin.. they're being lied to.
13:57 < midnightmagic> so it doesn't matter much that they keep parroting the words without adding any substance
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14:05 < waxwing> i think they're mostly talking about proper use of cryptography in distributed dbs/audit trails. git, google's certificate transparency for example. i don't think most of it is about BGP/BFT at all. 'blockchain' as a term is not helping, it's more an inspiration than anything else.
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16:11 < jtremback> "Blythe Masters is no longer just one of the most powerful women on the Street; she’s one of the most powerful women on the Block—the Blockchain, that is."
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16:25 < rgrant> is there a coherent argument for or against miners using BIP100 voting as a centralizing influence?
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16:26 < rgrant> i ask because the tension between "people picking numbers" and miners being in control of their own fee destiny is still part of our debate, although not in BIP100 form.
16:30 < smooth> It is clearly a form of collective bargaining. i guess it is not as clear whether you think that is "centralizing" or not.
16:31 < adlai> waxwing: algorithmic auditability! automatic transparency!
16:31 < rgrant> i've done some resarch of cartel behavior in other domains, and enforcement is a key aspect of stable cartels.  Bitcoin has no punishment mechanisms for potentially-anonymous miners, but the blocksize can set an effective limit.
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18:13 < bsm117532> Hmmm...a simple Incremental Hash Function is a Merkle path to the *next* place to add an element in a Merkle tree.  That seems so obvious now, don't know why I didn't think of it before... http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~daw/papers/inchash-cs06.pdf
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18:13 < bsm117532> (possibly useful for UTXO set commitments)
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18:16 < bsm117532> The literature I've seen on constructions of incremental hash functions seems to point to a log(n) growth in the size of the hash as you add data.  Merkle branches are very obviously log(n), so why not use them and evade the security considerations in the other constructions...
18:17 < kanzure> "NixOS: A purely functional Linux distribution" http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/software-engineering/nixos/NixOS:%20A%20Purely%20Functional%20Linux%20Distribution.pdf
18:17 < kanzure> maaku: ^
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18:19 < bsm117532> Ooooh!  That's a neat idea!
18:20  * bsm117532 glares angrily at /var/lib/dpkg/status
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20:04 < PeterR> I noticed BSM posted this paper by Croman, Decker, Eyal, et al: http://fc16.ifca.ai/bitcoin/papers/CDE+16.pdf
20:04 < PeterR> The authors argue that to maintain the network's current level of "decentralization," a reasonable goal is for blocks to propagate within 10 min to 90% of the nodes (an 'effective throughput' of 90%, to use their terminology).
20:04 < PeterR> They present data to suggest that given the current p2p performance, this works out to approximately 4MB blocks.
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20:05 < PeterR> Questions for the channel:
20:05 < PeterR> 1. Is block propagation between nodes arguably the bottleneck for on-chain scaling?
20:05 < PeterR> 2. Is "effective throughput" a useful metric and is >90% a reasonable target?
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20:10 < kanzure> increasing the resource requirements for participation will inevitably kick low-resource nodes off of the network
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20:14 < PeterR> That is a fairly generic statement that seems to be true but perhaps not that useful.
20:14 < PeterR> What I like about this new paper is that it centers around the network's propagation impedance: something that is both measurable and improvable.
20:15 < kanzure> i don't think it should be assumed to be possible to measure network propagation in absence of registered nodes
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20:17 < PeterR> Are you saying that you don't think Decker and Wattenhofer's methodology was valid?
20:17 < smooth> a percentage target seems useless
20:17 < smooth> what if there are 3 nodes and the all propagate within 5 seconds?
20:18 < PeterR> Yes, I see your point.
20:19 < kanzure> well their reference [10] is http://www.initc3.org/scalingblockchain/ which is a blank page
20:19 < kanzure> so i'm not sure how anyone would have evaluated their methods
20:20 < kanzure> anyway, since this is amiller, i am going to assume that it's coinoscope stuff, which is somewhat valid, but really you can only work with worst cases and try to improve the performance for worst-case participants rather than optimize for best-case participants
20:20 < PeterR> kanzure: this is the original paper that measured information propagation: http://www.tik.ee.ethz.ch/file/49318d3f56c1d525aabf7fda78b23fc0/P2P2013_041.pdf
20:21 < PeterR> The authors of the most recent paper made new measurements since this paper was from 2012.
20:22 < PeterR> kanzure: you answered Q2 but not Q1.  Do you agree that block propagation between nodes arguably the bottleneck for on-chain scaling?
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20:24 < kanzure> i would be far more willing to say something about bandwidth (transactions, blocks, or whatever else) long before i would claim block propagation
20:25 < smooth> i see his answers as responsive to both Q2 and Q1
20:25 < kanzure> this is like the umpteenth time i have said this to you..
20:25 < smooth> "increasing the resource requirements" sounds like a bottleneck to me
20:27 < PeterR> Kanzure: yes, that is what I suspected you'd say.  Just thought I'd ask again in the context of this latest paper :)
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20:29 < kanzure> next you're going to tell me alderaan shot first
20:33 < PeterR> I'm actually going to head off for sushi.  Nice talking to you (and to smooth).
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21:27 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, this strategy of showing up and demanding people answer leading questions is getting really old
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