--- Log opened Wed Feb 24 00:00:03 2016
--- Day changed Wed Feb 24 2016
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05:42 < ThomasV> !seen gmaxwell
05:42 < gribble> gmaxwell was last seen in #bitcoin-wizards 2 weeks, 0 days, 5 hours, 42 minutes, and 27 seconds ago: <gmaxwell> tromp: "(this also makes Cuckoo Cycle, unlike Hashcash, immune from Grover's quantum search algorithm)" not so-- the grover speedup is fully general and applies to any blockbox function.
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10:37 < amiller> The Honey Badger of BFT Protocols https://eprint.iacr.org/2016/199
10:38 < MRL-Relay> [shen] like the name
10:40 < amiller> i am a big fan of title-driven development
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10:41 < MRL-Relay> [shen] haha
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11:00 < Aleph0> amiller: BFT without block time?
11:00 < amiller> Aleph0, yes thats right
11:00 < Aleph0> nice. gonna read later.
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11:51 < maaku> amiller: any success with non-outsourceable puzzles that don't require a CRS?
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12:08 < smooth> "Unlike the alternatives, HoneyBadgerBFT simply does not care"
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12:34 < Aleph0> what is CRS, maaku?
12:35 < maaku> trusted setup
12:35 < maaku> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_reference_string_model
12:35 < Aleph0> oh, common string, thx.
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16:36 < Taek> I've started to be in favor of software regulation
16:37 < Taek> Some of the enterprise security breaks and consumer device flaws were really avoidable, and the result of poorly designed code
16:37 < Taek> almost like the designer didn't expect anyone to try and break it
16:38 < Taek> and, regulation kills innovation, but remotely hacked autonomous cars can be used nefariously
16:38 < Taek> as a consumer, I feel like it's not really my job to know which cars meet reasonable security standards. As a consumer, I probably couldn't tell good code from psuedocode.
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16:40 < Taek> and, I think that the blockchain space is one of the areas that it would make sense to regulate. Or rather, have some sort of certification process
16:40 < Taek> I'm not in favor of making code illegal, or making a network or altcoin illegal
16:41 < Taek> but I do think there needs to be some way to let a consumer know 'these guys have gone through a formal process to prove their stuff is production ready and safe-for-use"
16:41 < belcher> what harm can happen in the blockchain space that is similar to the self-driving-cars example ?
16:42 < Taek> :< sounds like hell though
16:42 < ggreer> actually enforcing software regulations is pretty hard. general purpose computers are everywhere
16:42 < Taek> belcher: people losing money. The virtual world is mostly limited to that I think. Though, as smart contracts become more pervasive you could end up with more important things on the line
16:42 < ggreer> it'd be like trying to stop nuclear proliferation in a world where everyone already has tons of plutonium
16:43 < Taek> ggreer: if you just had a non-enforced whitelist that people trusted, we'd be miles ahead of where we are. But I'm not sure I would ever trust such a whitelist
16:43 < Taek> "this plutionium won't blow up without your permission" ---> pretty nice thing to know
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16:44 < Taek> When I buy a house, I don't worry that it's structurally sound. I know that it's passed a bunch of reglations that mean it's structurally sound
16:44 < ggreer> if people want to opt-in to curated software, can't they already do that by using iOS or android devices? those have locked-down app stores that only verified devs can publish software in
16:44 < belcher> people losing money who voluntarily got involved in bitcoin isnt nearly as bad as innocent bystanders dying because of a self driving car
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16:44 < Taek> belcher: you are correct
16:46 < bsm1175321> People losing money who voluntarily give it to snake oil salesman is also illegal.  Don't blame the victim for losing money.
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16:49 < ggreer> Taek: I'm not sure what you know about autonomous vehicles, but almost all of them have a software architecture where there's a core module that can't be updated
16:49 < ggreer> and it checks basic things like, "am I going too fast for the conditions? are there obstacles in the way?" etc
16:50 < ggreer> and if any of those constraints are violated, the car slows down or stops. the incident is logged, etc
16:50 < ggreer> so that even if you hacked the car, you wouldn't be able to crash it. worst case, you'd brick the car
16:50 < smooth> sounds like a good way to kidnap people
16:52 < ggreer> on the other hand, every year in the US, approximately 40,000 people are killed in human-driven cars. for every day we delay self-driving cars, that's another 100 lives lost
16:54 < ggreer> even if these movie plot threats were plausible, they wouldn't kill 40,000 people
16:54 < smooth> depends on the movie
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18:52 < Aleph0> Taek: are you familiar how software gets verified for flaws/vulns in enterprise settings?
18:53 < Aleph0> there are regulations, etc.
18:53 < Aleph0> all that stuff has been reviewed, and signed off by multiple ppl, etc.
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18:54 < Aleph0> there is just very little in terms of consequences for everyone involved.
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19:26 < Taek> Aleph0: I am not familiar with it, but it sounds along the lines of what I'm thinking about
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20:17 < pigeons> yeah software quality has safety effects now
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20:19 < bsm117532> I don't know that we could accomplish reliability and safety guarantees in today's software environment.  I would welcome such a thing, but there's a new language every 10 minutes...
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20:20  * bsm117532 has been playing with golang, ethereum, serpent, etc.  It's become so easy to whip up a new language.
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20:20 < bsm117532> Proving correctness is another ball of wax...
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20:22 < bsm117532> I think the halting problem and the incompleteness theorem has discouraged mathematicians and computer scientists from even trying, which is unfortunate, because by restricting the domain, correctness can certainly be proved and checked.  But no one even tries....
20:26 < bsm117532> I've seen a number of "folk theorems" in physics have the same effect. :-/
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20:30 < Taek> I think a lot of us, as well as a huge part of the general crypto community, would appreciate having better tooling for provably correct code
20:33 < bsm117532> I know the new libsecp256k1 went through a lot of testing using Sage, but I don't know the details.
20:38 < zmanian_> maaku: do you have any references to non outsourceable POW that do require CRS?
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21:52 < rgrant> Taek: are you aware of Cryptol (www.cryptol.net), Galois's Copilot embedded systems DSL, and techniques used in the verification of L4? ( https://github.com/seL4/l4v )
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