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05:43 < kanzure> mesmer_: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/kanzure/diyhpluswiki/master/bitcoin/big-pile.mdwn
05:43 < kanzure> mesmer_: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/bitcoin/recent-bitcoin-bookmarks-2015-08-30-125827.yaml
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05:55 < JackH> thats info overload
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06:04 < BitcoinErrorLog> i'm gonna go read for 5yrs brb
06:09 < kanzure> BitcoinErrorLog: i'll hold your beer(hat)
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06:10 < mesmer> kanzure: thanks!
06:10 < kanzure> JackH: maybe... i used to try to keep up with the wikipedia firehose to disprove people who told me that information overload was a thing. jokes on me becuse now i just know about millions of shitty edits....
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06:11 < JackH> we actually just need people to sort this out kanzure
06:11 < JackH> man power can fix it
06:13 < JackH> I tried making my own library of info
06:13 < JackH> I had to give up and just keep it high level, like: www.bitcointalk.org
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06:14 < mesmer> that's the root of the problem though, it takes time to reach high level understanding if you have been in this space for awhile, but the barrier of entry for eager people and potential devs would have to walk through this same pain every time.
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06:28 < bsm117532> I keep a database in Zotero of papers, and have a map in my head of what's important.  Everyone builds their own personal knowledge-base a little differently, and that's valuable because everyone gets a different perspective.  kanzure likes to aggregate everything, and it's valuable to share, but I personally also find value in "forgetting" things also.  Hopefully the stuff I remember is the important stuff.  Hopef
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06:31 < harding> bsm117532: you got cut off at what I'm guessing is the second hopefully: "the important stuff.  Hopef"
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06:34 < kanzure> forgetting things is overrated
06:39 < Taek> https://github.com/DavidVorick/herus/tree/own
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06:40 < Taek> JackH, mesmer, bsm117532: wrote the first half of a backend for something that's supposed to help with knowledge curation last Saturday
06:40 < instagibbs> forgetting things are important for personal relationships, not sure about scholarship :P
06:40 < Taek> you upload primary sources (papers, ramblings, etc.) to topic names, then each topic lists all the primary sources that people have added to it
06:41 < Taek> if you click on the primary source, you are brought to a page where annotations/elaborations/criticisms of the primary source can be uploaded
06:42 < Taek> which should make it easier to write criticisms one time and then have an obvious way in which they are linked to the primary source
06:42 < JackH> yeah bsm117532 nothing beats the information you have in your head. it is still the best blockchain for storing and retrieving info
06:42 < JackH> it scales unlimited
06:42 < Taek> I still need to add user accounts, and I'm planning on also adding upvotes + downvotes for primary sources and their annotations
06:42 < harding> Taek: what are left/right/center votes?
06:42 < JackH> the problem is that there is too much
06:43 < JackH> you still need to know what you want to look for, and therein is the problem
06:43 < JackH> you cant know what you dont know
06:44 < Taek> harding: left+right votes help distinguish between beginner topics and advanced topics. There will be two columns for primary sources. Left column would have stuff like 'Mastering Bitcoin' and right column would have stuff like 'Bitcoin Developer's Guide'
06:44 < Taek> oh, finally each topic has a list of other topics at the bottom which are similar
06:44 < harding> Taek: cool.
06:44 < Taek> people can tether topics, and then use voting to indicate how relevant something is
06:44 < Taek> in that case the left/right/center votes indicate whether something is more general or more specific
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06:45 < Taek> so, 'sha256' would be more general than bitcoin, and '51% attacks' would be more specific than Bitcoin
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06:46 < Taek> JackH: the act of linking topics is supposed to help you learn what you don't know
06:47 < JackH> hmm yeah that could work
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06:47 < JackH> well reddit style is great, but the problem is spam there
06:47 < JackH> too many people fucking things up
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06:57 < bsm117532>   Hopefully.  Trying to keep track of everything is exhausting.
06:58 < kanzure> Taek: i am unconvinced https://github.com/DavidVorick/herus/blob/060eada00b72924ff84b010b876791fcd20e2e96/server.go#L29
06:58 < kanzure> Taek: for criticism i suggest embedding pubpeer
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07:48 < Taek> kanzure: pubpeer has no results for Bitcoin, or am I using it wrong?
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07:51 < bsm1175321> Taek: no results for me either. I think that just means that no one has entered a comment on a bitcoin paper yet.
07:52 < Taek> one big thing about bitcoin is that most of the knowledge is not available through research papers
07:52 < bsm1175321> It seems to be used mostly for pubmed papers.
07:52 < Taek> it's irc discussions, mailing list posts, reddit comments, and forum posts
07:52 < Taek> yeah. So herus is supposed to be friendly to any kind of content, with the disclaimer that it's not been polished or reviewed
07:53 < bsm1175321> Yeah we need to formalize our publication of the important stuff.
07:53 < Taek> I think it would be better if we didn't need to formalize it
07:53 < Taek> formalizing knowledge takes a lot of time, and often you end up with something that's a lot less approachable
07:53 < Taek> just because you end up being very careful with your wording
07:53 < bsm1175321> There's a depth of thought that comes with writing out something more carefully than a reddit post, and getting it peer reviewed.
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07:58 < kanzure> Taek: pubpeer is for academic criticism in general, not surprised to see no results for bitcoin yet
08:00 < bsm1175321> kanzure, Taek: I don't see a way to put the bitcoin paper on there.  It has no DOI.
08:01 < kanzure> bsm1175321: here is how to get doi numbers https://thewinnower.com/papers/now-i-am-become-doi-destroyer-of-gatekeeping-worlds
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08:03  * bsm1175321 glazes over word salad.  is there a solution in there, or just complaining about doi's?
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08:07 < harding> bsm117532: I think it says that if you submit an article to that site, you get a DOI.
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09:20 < amiller> hi everyone
09:26 < kanzure> sup
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09:39 < tromp_> hi, Andrew
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09:45 < andytoshi> hey tromp_
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09:45 < andytoshi> oh amiller
09:45 < andytoshi> sorry, i need coffee.. and to stop highlighting on "andrew"
09:45 < amiller> greetings to all andrews
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09:47 < harding> andytoshi: I also have to figure how to tighten up irssi's default highlight rules as I get highlighted everytime someone here is talking about sharding.  :-)
09:48 < amiller> rofl
09:48 < bsm1175321> Hey if you can get more people to talk about sharding, I'm all for it!  ;-)
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09:50 < helo> harding: i ended up highlighting on "helo " and " helo". seems to work farily well.
09:51 < harding> helo: good idea.  Thanks!
09:51 < kanzure> how about "helo: "
09:52 < helo> luckily, the space at the start of the line allows e.g. "< guy> helo, blah" to be matched
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10:00 < Tasoshi_> with mempool now full, are we to expect nodes to start crashing?
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10:00 < Tasoshi_> or was that just made up by Mike Hearn?
10:00 < Tasoshi_> there is apparently a backlog of 30mb
10:01 < Tasoshi_> and rising
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10:02 < arubi> it's not backlog, it's altruistic node policy.
10:03 < arubi> maybe classic\xt nodes are crashing, I wouldn't know
10:04 < Eliel_> Tasoshi_: #bitcoin would be a more suitable channel for that question. It's off topic here. To answer the question, 0.12 won't crash due to this at all. Older nodes might, if the system runs out of RAM. 30MB is not nearly enough to do much though.
10:04 < arubi> oh wow, I didn't notice we're here
10:06 < Tasoshi_> have there been any tests as to what mempool nodes can handle?
10:07 < Tasoshi_> frankly, I find the situation a bit scary, the backlog keeps increasing.......
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10:13 < kanzure> wrong channel
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10:15 < Tasoshi_> sorry, I was looking for some sort of technical explanation in regards to what mempools can handle
10:15 < Tasoshi_> and whether we should expect them to start crashing, or otherwise
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10:17 < amiller> i think that's on the knife's edge of on-topic, failure modes can be a research question
10:18 < amiller> i think that there's a new policy in .12 that limits the size of mempool, i think that XT has had mempool limits for a while
10:18 < amiller> i think that nodes with old code will just fill up and up, and at some point could use more and more memory until they slow down or crash
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10:25 < Tasoshi_> hardly any nodes have upgraded to 0.12 though. More specifically, what I am enquiring is whether Hearn was right when he stated that once the mempool starts building up with genuine transactions a systemic node crash will follow or has that been rebutted?
10:25 < instagibbs> this is #bitcoin material
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10:26 < amiller> ok
10:27 < instagibbs> not your fault, Tasoshi_ might be banned from #bitcoin...
10:27 < amiller> i'm interested so i'm reasking the question there
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10:35 < gmaxwell> amiller: It's very hard for lots of mempool memory to be used by 0.11.2 because the base relay fee is high enough that the prior people who were attacking that way were unsucessful.  There is no such thing as "starts building up" as different nodes, have different policies: case in point, a long running unmodified 0.12 node here has 286MB in mempool at the moment (0.12 will always have about 300M
10:35 < gmaxwell> B in the mempool since thats its limit). Though sure, if your system can't allocate enough memory/swap eventually the daemon will shut down.
10:35 < gmaxwell> And yes, this is pretty offtopic here.
10:36 < amiller> thanks
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10:38 < gmaxwell> $ ~/bitcoin/src/bitcoin-cli  getmempoolinfo
10:38 < gmaxwell> { "size": 28682, "bytes": 131232798, "usage": 286701056, "maxmempool": 300000000, "mempoolminfee": 0.00001741
10:38 < gmaxwell> }
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10:47 < Tasoshi_> couldn't a malicious miner easily attack bitcoin right now by mining fully empty blocks?
10:47 < Tasoshi_> since there would be no counterance to that sort of attack, that malicious miner can in effect cripple the entire network?
10:50 < Tasoshi_> is it not the case that, as the system is operating right now, as far as miners are concerned, it is in no way decentralised and the usual incentives no longer apply, for 1 miner can set the policy of the entire network by simply mining empty or 250kb blocks, thus turning the system onto a centralised operation at the mercy of 1 miner and that is possible only because the other miners can no longer operate in competition, because they do
10:50 < Tasoshi_> not have the choice to, say, increase the size of the blocks they mine in return
10:51 < kanzure> so in your view, any non-zero load or backlog is an attack because..?
10:51 < Tasoshi_> my view is simple
10:52 < Tasoshi_> all miners are operating at 1mb, and the system is somewhat functioning, what if one malicious miner decided to give bitcoin a system shoock, and mine 0 blocks
10:52 < Tasoshi_> or 250k blocks, or 500k blocks, whatever
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10:52 < Tasoshi_> the other miners have no choice or say, there is no competition any longer
10:52 < Tasoshi_> no balance
10:53 < kanzure> why would empty blocks be a shock?
10:53 < kanzure> if anything it is less of a shock, giving low-bandwidth nodes some time to catch up
10:53 < Tasoshi_> let us suppose this miner has 25% hashrate, one can estimate the number of txs, but let us assume they are 50k txs
10:54 < Tasoshi_> having, all the sudden, 50k txs on a backlog breaks everything, including fee estimation etc
10:54 < Tasoshi_> but, more than that, this miner, single handedly can decide network policy, he can decide the fee rate, he can decide all he wishes, 1 miner
10:55 < kanzure> that's already the case- any miner can decide to include whatever fee rate
10:55 < Tasoshi_> there would be no longer any nash equilibrium or decentralisation
10:55 < Tasoshi_> except that other miners, if they have free blocksapce, can compensate, and drive the monopoly miner out of business
10:55 < Tasoshi_> but with blocks limited at 1mb, the other miners have no choice
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10:57 < Tasoshi_> and, since subsidy currently plays the higher part, why shouldn't miners engage in a cartel monopoly behaviour to set fees at, for the long term, unacceptable behaviour, but short term no choice
10:57 < Tasoshi_> so, in effect, well, killing bitcoin, whether they know it or not
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11:07 < gmaxwell> Tasoshi_: your assumptions don't make sense... having a 50k tx backlog doesn't break anything (and, in fact, fee estimation doesn't work without backlog)
11:09 < Tasoshi_> how does fee estimation work?
11:09 < gmaxwell> in any case, today most miners are running with 750k limits. If a miner with less than a majority hashpower stopped mining transactions, at most they could do is effectively halve capacity (or really, decrease it by a quarter relative to 750k).
11:09 < gmaxwell> Tasoshi_: by observing how long it takes for backlogged transactions to get mined.
11:09 < kanzure> here's some ideas on upcoming fee estimation things,
11:09 < kanzure> https://medium.com/@bramcohen/how-wallets-can-handle-transaction-fees-ff5d020d14fb
11:09 < kanzure> http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-November/011685.html
11:10 < kanzure> http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2013-October/003421.html
11:10 < Tasoshi_> gmaxwell, how does that observation work when you have a system shock by a malicious miner?
11:11 < Tasoshi_> let us say it takes 0.001 fee to corfirm, everything fine, then a malicious miner decides to set policy, and we suddenly have 50k txs backloged
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11:11 < kanzure> well, for that particular miner you could assume that none of the transaction fees were high enough to entice them (otherwise they would have included the transaction). but this says nothng about the miners that might be mining upcoming blocks.
11:11 < Tasoshi_> is that acceptable gmax?
11:11 < Tasoshi_> what if those txs are urgent?
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11:11 < Tasoshi_> but, lets not stop there, the miner wants to play, now he sets the blocks to 250kb
11:11 < Tasoshi_> 500kb
11:11 < Tasoshi_> 0 again
11:12 < gmaxwell> Tasoshi_: it'll read low for a little while, but catch up.  You don't need to hypothesize a malicious miner, the variance of finding blocks is _enormous_ it's not unheared of for there to be long runs of 20 minute apart blocks; and it's completely expected.
11:12 < Tasoshi_> there's a difference, a human is playing
11:12 < gmaxwell> Tasoshi_: you realize this miner only controls his own blocks, right?
11:12 < Tasoshi_> for his gain, and no one can do anything about it
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11:13 < Tasoshi_> of course, let's say he has 25%
11:13 < instagibbs> https://z.cash/blog/snark-parameters.html
11:13 < Tasoshi_> enough to have network wide effects
11:13 < Tasoshi_> how would the network be decentralised under that sort of playful miner?
11:13 < Tasoshi_> he, basically, rules
11:14 < gmaxwell> If he does, thats basically a violation of the system security assumptions. But sure. So what?  he can decrease capacity by up to 25%-- but swings of that capacity amount are expected just from block finding variance.
11:14 < Tasoshi_> he is setting policy, 50k txs are 1/4th of the network right now
11:15 < kanzure> what does it mean to set policy here ??
11:15 < gmaxwell> huh?
11:15 < Tasoshi_> but it is worse, because he just changed his 1/4th to 0, meaning his effect is half of the network
11:15 < gmaxwell> Sorry, I'm not able to follow your logical leaps here.  A miner with 25% hashpower controls a quarter of the blocks on average.
11:17 < Tasoshi_> gmaxwell, let us take f2pool, with say 50k txs or 25%, the network now is operating as it is, then suddenly f2pool creates a system shock and adds 50k to the backlog, while withdrawing their service, that has amplifying effects
11:18 < Tasoshi_> sure, the system adjusts, so now f2pool adds 25k txs, then withdraws them to 0, then adds 50k
11:18 < Tasoshi_> it's chaos
11:18 < Tasoshi_> and everyone else has no power whatever
11:18 < Tasoshi_> no nash equilibrium
11:18 < gmaxwell> what?
11:19 < kanzure> sounds like you are worried about not being able to estimate transaction backlog clearing
11:19 < Tasoshi_> what part do you want me to explain?
11:19 < kanzure> it would be helpful to imagine a constant (or growing) backlog, rather than assuming an intermittent backlog, i think
11:20 < gmaxwell> What you're saying doesn't follow logically. The amount of capacity is inherently unpredictable just by the design of the system. It works fine like that. You've made no argument as to why an additional 25% hashpower pumping the capacity would be "chaos" as you describe.
11:20 < gmaxwell> (relative capacity is also unpredictable because demand is unpredictable)
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11:20 < Tasoshi_> so instantly reducing transaction capacity right now to say 100k txs would not be chaos?
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11:21 < gmaxwell> Tasoshi_: AFAIKCT, you're making a dimensionality error. What does "capacity 100k txs" even mean?
11:21 < Tasoshi_> let us say that right now people can only carry 200k txs a day
11:22 < Tasoshi_> suddenly, with no warning, reducing that to 100k would not cause chaos?
11:22 < gmaxwell> You mean 150k (25% reduction from 25% hashpower not including transactions)?
11:22 < Tasoshi_> well, let's use my numbers
11:22 < kanzure> it might violate the assumptions that some people had, but i'm not sure we should expect to meet unrealistic assumptions
11:23 < gmaxwell> No, it would not cause chaos-- that already happens due to variance, due to existing policy (miners do not have uniform policies to begin with)...
11:23 < gmaxwell> Tasoshi_: your numbers require the attacker be half the hashpower, not 25%
11:23 < Tasoshi_> variance brings tx capacity from 200k to 100k suddenly?
11:24 < Tasoshi_> beyond the system shock though there is a policy setting role
11:24 < Tasoshi_> supply and demand - and their relationship to fees
11:24 < Tasoshi_> now lets get back to the 25% miner
11:24 < Tasoshi_> he can increase supply or reduce it
11:24 < Tasoshi_> if demand remains constant then he is increasing or reducing fees
11:24 < Tasoshi_> in effect, one person, setting policy
11:25 < Tasoshi_> because the other miners have no choice
11:25 < gmaxwell> Tasoshi_: sure, go look over the past week there are swinsgs of 25% even though the whole time 0.12 mempools had near 300mb backlogs.  Variance, and policy already produce clearance rate differences on the kind of scale you're talking about with nothing breakin.
11:25 < Tasoshi_> now they can join, but that is a race to the bottom, or a way of making bitcoin fully useless
11:26 < Tasoshi_> gmaxwell, I am not sure what I am failing to explain here
11:26 < Tasoshi_> 25% variance and 200k daily txs to 100k all the sudden are very different things
11:26 < gmaxwell> Tasoshi_: again, you seem to be making a logical leap that makes no sense. Yes, if 200k/day is the limit, then 25% hashpower can lower capacity to around 150k/day.  Now you suggest that other miners are somehow forced to adopt his policy, but you've suggested no mechenism.
11:26 < Tasoshi_> I know this is all political, but please appreciate facts
11:27 < gmaxwell> Tasoshi_: in terms of how many transactions the network can clear, all causes there are equivilent. If mining variance reduce capacity it's no different for tx getting cleared than an equivilent reduction by some chunk of hashpower.
11:28 < Tasoshi_> don't care how many txs the network can clear
11:28 < Tasoshi_> not the point, at all
11:28 < gmaxwell> There isn't anythin 'political' in this discussion.
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11:28 < Tasoshi_> there is an attack vector here
11:29 < gmaxwell> Tasoshi_: please-- I asked a direct question. You just insisted that other miners would somehow be compelled to follow the no-transaction miner in their behavior--- please, tell us what mechenism would enable that?
11:29 < Tasoshi_> a super effective attack vector in the short term
11:29 < gmaxwell> Tasoshi_: simply saying there is doesn't make it so.
11:29 < Tasoshi_> let us go to an imaginary worl
11:29 < Tasoshi_> and simplify matters
11:29 < Tasoshi_> let us suppose that tx capacity is 200k txs a day and not 1 more
11:30 < Tasoshi_> let us suppose no miner can increase this tx capacity
11:30 < gmaxwell> several times in this discussion your simplfications have taken things completely out of connection with logic. (much less reality).
11:30 < gmaxwell> Tasoshi_: sure
11:30 < Tasoshi_> let us suppose we have a running system with people creating 200k txs a day, a fee market, and all is running
11:31 < Tasoshi_> let us suppose someone who can decide in regards to say 50k of these txs now says I want higher fees, and thus reduces capacity to 150k per day
11:31 < gmaxwell> yes, 25% hashpower could reduce that capacity by 25%.
11:31 < gmaxwell> if he takes no transtions at all.
11:31 < Tasoshi_> so you agree he can do that?
11:32 < Tasoshi_> and no one else can do anything about it?
11:32 < gmaxwell> Sure, thats how the system works. It's not some specific 50k tx he controls, to the system's transaction processing capacity it is exactly equivilent to him simply turning off. (at least for a couple weeks)
11:32 < kanzure> Tasoshi_: was your expectation earlier today that this was not the case ... ?
11:33 < Tasoshi_> how does he not control those 50k txs?
11:33 < Tasoshi_> he can mine 0 blocks and deny those 50k txs, thus reducing system capacity to 150k no?
11:33 < helo> the assumption interferes with your argument... there will never be "200k/day, exactly", there is the usual variance that users are accustomed to.
11:33 < gmaxwell> Tasoshi_: because there is no mapping of transactions to miners.  Let me pose an alternative, how would your situation differ from an alternative sitation where the same miner simply turned off his power and went home?
11:34 < arubi> er, my head hurts because this means a miner acts against their own gain and discards fees,  can this be established here?
11:34 < Tasoshi_> you know how it would differ gmaxwell
11:34 < Tasoshi_> that miner would no longer be mining blocks
11:34 < Tasoshi_> there would be no 0 blocks
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11:34 < gmaxwell> Tasoshi_: so? that doesn't have any effect.
11:34 < gmaxwell> (at least not for weeks)
11:34 < Tasoshi_> of course it does
11:34 < gmaxwell> Tasoshi_: What is the effect then?
11:34 < Tasoshi_> a miner mining 0 blocks and a non existent miner are two different things
11:34 < gmaxwell> arubi: sure, but it's hypotetical.
11:34 < Tasoshi_> as you know
11:35 < arubi> gmaxwell, yea, way out there..
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11:35 < Tasoshi_> and agree, I hope?
11:35 < gmaxwell> Tasoshi_: no, actually in the short/medium term .. for transaction processing they are exactly the same.
11:35 < Tasoshi_> not if we go a bit deaper
11:35 < tromp_> no effect on tx/day. some effect on btc rewards/day
11:35 < Tasoshi_> your miner does it once
11:35 < Tasoshi_> my miner continues the game
11:35 < Tasoshi_> he mines 0 blocks, increases the fees
11:35 < gmaxwell> Tasoshi_: if tht 25% hashpower miner turns off one day, the same effect happens, roughly only 150k txn (in our hypothentical 200k constant load world) get processed.. same as the next day.
11:36 < Tasoshi_> then he mines 250k blocks
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11:36 < Tasoshi_> or if he wants chaos he mines full blocks
11:36 < Tasoshi_> now
11:36 < Tasoshi_> do we not have a central bank governor?
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11:36 < gmaxwell> Tasoshi_: go back. You've still not explained where you think the observable difference to users is on that day when the miner turns off.
11:36 < gmaxwell> I think it's essential to clear that up before continuing.
11:36 < Tasoshi_> the miner who turns off does it once
11:37 < Tasoshi_> in a suicide
11:37 < Tasoshi_> my miner is smart
11:37 < Tasoshi_> he is setting policy
11:37 < gmaxwell> Tasoshi_: he could turn off and on as much as he likes, sure'y you've seen a power switch.
11:37 < Tasoshi_> he mines 0 blocks to increase fees
11:37 < Tasoshi_> then 500k
11:37 < Tasoshi_> then full, then whatever he wants
11:37 < Tasoshi_> the crux is no other miner has a say over it
11:37 < Tasoshi_> how is that decentralised?
11:38 < gmaxwell> Tasoshi_: if he's mining 500k blocks than your capacity is back to 175k, fwiw.  But again, you're still failing to distinguish turning off with mining nothing for this purpose.
11:38 < helo> Tasoshi_: if everybody decides to do something abusive towards bitcoin, it can break.
11:38 < Tasoshi_> there is no need for a distinguishment
11:38 < gmaxwell> Can you please show the difference between turning off and mining nothing or agree they're equivilent?
11:38 < Tasoshi_> it makes no difference
11:38 < Tasoshi_> he turns it off he mines 0 blocks no one cares
11:38 < Tasoshi_> same thing applies
11:38 < Tasoshi_> and applies for 1 reason
11:38 < Tasoshi_> the other miners have no say
11:39 < kanzure> Tasoshi_: where are your "full blocks" coming from if 25% hashrate is turned off? those blocks will be absent.
11:39 < Tasoshi_> full blocks basically give any miner a policy setting power
11:39 < harding> I think Tasoshi_ is trying to argue that by mining empty blocks (or not mining at all) the fee rate will ratchet up so that when the miner starts mining larger blocks again, the fee rate will be higher.  This seems to miss the point that the other miners -- his competition -- will capture all the high-fee transactions.
11:39 < gmaxwell> Tasoshi_: and yes, sure a miner with 25% hashpower can swing capacity around by up to 25%-- e.g. by turning off. So? --- it isn't at all good that any >=25% hashpower miner exists, which I pointed out at the top-- but thats true for many reasons.
11:40 < Tasoshi_> whether they do it by turning on and off or mining 0 blocks is irrelevant
11:40 < kanzure> so you agree they are equivalent
11:40 < Tasoshi_> gmaxwell, you are missing the crucial point of decentralization
11:40 < gmaxwell> harding: yes, it wasn't clear to me above ... sounded like he was thinking there was a mapping from the miner to specific transactions?
11:40 < Tasoshi_> no other miner has a say
11:40 < Tasoshi_> they can't counteract this one miner
11:40 < kanzure> miners always have a say about what they mine
11:40 < Tasoshi_> they can't adapt
11:41 < Tasoshi_> even the network can't adapt
11:41 < gmaxwell> Tasoshi_: they have a say in their own behaivor. Not someone elses, which is itself a critical point of decenteralization.
11:41 < Tasoshi_> it is basically 1 miner setting policy
11:41 < Tasoshi_> no
11:41 < kanzure> what is policy?
11:41 < Tasoshi_> they dont have a say in their own behavior
11:41 < gmaxwell> (and yes, this is a reason why 25% consolidations are themselves absurd... but they're absurd for reasons having nothing to do with capacity)
11:41 < Tasoshi_> and what proves it is simple
11:41 < kanzure> perhaps policy is not happening here?
11:41 < Tasoshi_> what if the other miners want to increase capacity by 50k txs to counteract his decrease?
11:42 < Tasoshi_> well, they can't
11:42 < gmaxwell> Tasoshi_: they do--- that 25% miner, has (limited) control over 25% of the capacity. he deny it, or not, or anywhere in between. He has no control over the capacity of the other miners.
11:42 < Tasoshi_> he does
11:42 < kanzure> backlog size is independent of miner behavior
11:42 < Tasoshi_> let us assume all other miners run at full capacity
11:43 < gmaxwell> Tasoshi_: if they could "increase to offset" that would mean they had control over the 25% of the capacity that he influenced.
11:43 < Tasoshi_> as far as the network is concerned, it is only the 25% miner who decides the overall capacity by increasing it or decreasing it as he pleases
11:43 < kanzure> nope, miners cannot decide the size of the backlog
11:43 < Tasoshi_> we are talking about a network
11:44 < gmaxwell> Tasoshi_: he doesn't decide the overall capacity, he influences the roughly 25% in his pervue.
11:44 < Tasoshi_> if a malicious miner decides to decrease capacity by 25%, the other miners should be able to respond
11:44 < Tasoshi_> under the current system, however, they can not
11:44 < gmaxwell> Tasoshi_: if they 'responded' then they'd have control of his 25% of the capacity then, a failure of decenteralization.
11:44 < Tasoshi_> this opens the space for a clever miner to in effect set network policy, knowing other miners have no choice
11:45 < kanzure> i think you mean that "transaction fees seem to be the only way to figure out prioritization"
11:45 < Tasoshi_> 25% of overall capacity
11:45 < helo> (this never stops, by the way...)
11:45 < Tasoshi_> lol
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11:45 < Tasoshi_> gmaxwell, how did you reach that conclusion?
11:45 < gmaxwell> perhaps, for example, our 25% friend was not malicious, rather, but just required a higher fee to stay in operation. Your hypothetical would leave the others free to kick him out. And then they could kick out the next most efficient and so on, until only one remains (another hypothetical)
11:45 < Tasoshi_> I mean, it is easy to argue whatever
11:45 < arubi> really if all miners follow a "policy", then one miner "turning off" just cuts the bottom 25% of legit, non-spam transactions.  smaller than 50k
11:45 < gmaxwell> it's only easy to argue whatever for people who are unattacked to logical reasoning or reality. :)
11:45 < Tasoshi_> but how did you reach the conclusion that miners acting in a decentralized maner suddenly control 25% of a miner's capacity?
11:46 < kanzure> i really think there's some unreasonable assumptions being used here, like transaction reliability or that miners have control of the backlog, which is not true.....
11:46 < Tasoshi_> no
11:46 < kanzure> he said that in a decentralized system the 25% is not controlled by the other 75%
11:46 < kanzure> you seem to have thought he said the opposite
11:46 < gmaxwell> kanzure: yes, lots of weird assumptions-- but so? I think it's okay to talk about the limited case.
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11:46 < Tasoshi_> he was arguing the exact opposite of what I said
11:47 < Tasoshi_> while the situation is fully different
11:47 < Tasoshi_> basically, unless I misunderstood, he said that if we turn the coin, then 75% will decide the capacity of the 25% miner
11:47 < kanzure> gmaxwell: i think he is trying to argue that fee prioritization (or other prioritization) is unreasonable, but meanwhile it seems to be the only reasonable option for this system design
11:47 < Tasoshi_> therefore, presumably, it is right that this 25% miner has that power?
11:48 < Tasoshi_> but the situation is fully different
11:48 < Tasoshi_> where the 25% miner decides the situation is limited, with no choice
11:48 < kanzure> in a very vague and abstract way it's actually interesting that bitcoin can be used as a transaction fee to help determine priority, it's nice in the sense that it's a variable internal-to-the-system, rather than an external signal
11:49 < Eliel_> To me it seems like Tasoshi_'s "attack" could be counteracted by a rolling block size limit that allows the next block + N past blocks to total (N+1)*1MB.
11:49 < Tasoshi_> where the whole network of miners has a say, it is dynamic, and it is no longer anyone deciding the capacity of anyone, but everyone, in their complex way, deciding the overall network capacity
11:49 < gmaxwell> Tasoshi_: if someone has 25% influence over the system, then thats what they have. It is a faulure of decenteralization for a single party to have that much; but it is what it is-- the situation is not improved by taking their influence. and handing to to another self-selecting party.
11:49 < Tasoshi_> no
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11:49 < Tasoshi_> they have what they have because of certain reasons
11:49 < kanzure> Eliel_: there was another "vault" proposal sent to bitcoin-dev a few months ago. did you happen to see that?
11:49 < Tasoshi_> primarely, under full blocks the other miners can not respond
11:49 < Tasoshi_> they have no choice
11:50 < helo> other miners keep doing what they were before the 25% dropped out
11:50 < Tasoshi_> they can not counteract the malicious miner who decides to reduce capacity by increasing their own capacity
11:50 < Tasoshi_> their hands are tied
11:50 < gmaxwell> Tasoshi_: they only influence their own 'share' of the capacity; they can't influence someone elses.
11:50 < helo> or they turn theirs off (for whatever reason, but they have no increased reason to as a result of the 25% drop)
11:50 < Tasoshi_> and you know that, don't you?
11:50 < Tasoshi_> no
11:50 < Tasoshi_> they influence the network share
11:50 < Eliel_> kanzure: I probably missed that. However, that rolling limit sounds like it'd change more than is immediately obvious, so I'm not sure if it's a good idea.
11:50 < Tasoshi_> there is a whole system here
11:50  * gmaxwell is tired of wasting his time. 
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11:51 < Tasoshi_> lol
11:51 < tromp_> i'm suprised you laste this long, gmaxwell:)
11:51 < helo> slow clap
11:51 < kanzure> Tasoshi_: it's not an attack because that's how the system is supposed to work
11:51 < Tasoshi_> some told me he was smart
11:52 < arubi> whoever said this is #bitcoin material was really smart
11:52 < Tasoshi_> but sometimes even the smart can't handle facts
11:53 < Tasoshi_> especially the ones who cut halfway through
11:53 -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [+o jcorgan] by ChanServ
11:53 < helo> Tasoshi_: #bitcoin
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11:53 < kanzure> what was the evidence that he was aquentus?
11:54 < arubi> kanzure, past sessions, talk of "the test of bitcoin", almost prophecy, cult-like
11:54 < JackH> why is this guy such a pain to listen to? anyone knows who he is or what his problem is?
11:54 < arubi> somewhat similar to that other nickname ^
11:55 < Eliel_> it's difficult to talk to someone who refuses to budge from using their own weird definitions for things.
11:55 < kanzure> Eliel_: not sure how relevant this is, nevermind http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2016-January/012240.html
11:56 < kanzure> Eliel_: i might have rejected that email or something, but i'm confused why i see it on the mailing list
11:57 < kanzure> also for some reason i thought you were eyal or sirer
11:57 < bsm1175321> kanzure: I keep making that mistake too.
11:57 < kanzure> ah then it must be true
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11:58 < bsm1175321> Nah, just a semantic name collision.
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11:58 < Eliel> I can get why you'd confuse me with Eyal, but ... sirer?
11:58 < kanzure> well i confuse both eyal and sirer with each other
11:59 < kanzure> *shrug*
12:00 < fluffypony> wow backlog
12:00 < fluffypony> and it's basically gmaxwell trying to help someone
12:00  * fluffypony is never going to read all that
12:00 < Eliel> painful reading, can't recommend.
12:00 < JackH> the guy is insane, and creepy
12:01 < Eliel> All you'll find is gmaxwell unsuccesfully trying to establish a common language with someone who doesn't want to.
12:01 < fluffypony> yeah
12:02 < fluffypony> re: gmaxwell's "It is a faulure of decenteralization for a single party to have that much; but it is what it is"
12:02 < fluffypony> there were some REALLY good conversations I had this weekend with people at the Satoshi Roundtable about them taking on their own chunk of mining hardware, or running nodes spread out where they can host them
12:03 < fluffypony> adam3us also said something similar on one of the panels
12:03 < fluffypony> maybe at some point we forgot to keep educating people on how to retain Bitcoin's decentralisation
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12:04 < Eliel> Or perhaps, bitcoin just grew so fast that it all got lost in the noise.
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12:05 < JackH> nah its capitalism in its purest form
12:06  * kanzure weeps for the 56,000 words he typed from the roundtable (bug bruce if you want him to release that)
12:06 < fluffypony> that's the other side of the coin, isn't it - why should CoinBase spend the money to run a chunk of mining hardware when they'll feel like it's a waste of money
12:06 < fluffypony> and you can't convince them otherwise
12:07 < fluffypony> kanzure: I still can't believe the quality of your raw transcribes, it's insane. You must be pushing out well north of 150 WPM?
12:07 < kanzure> fluffypony: 196 wpm http://www.seanwrona.com/typeracer/profile.php?username=kanzure
12:08 < JackH> you typed up from the rountable? all of it? omg dude
12:08 < fluffypony> JackH: there were some sessions I wasn't in, so he couldn't transcribe everything
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12:09 < amiller> http://www.seanwrona.com/typeracer/profile.php?username=socrates this is me :p
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12:10 < kanzure> we should totally race sometime
12:11 < nsh> tron: qwerty
12:11 < kanzure> no i mean on that site (typeracer)
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12:12 < amiller> race now?
12:12 < kanzure> http://play.typeracer.com/?rt=trkanzure
12:12 < kanzure> let's roll
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12:14 < kanzure> oh shit
12:15 < kanzure> what
12:17 < amiller> #bitcoin-wizards-offtopic for typerace tournament chatter
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12:52  * midnightmagic golf-claps for jcorgan
12:52 < midnightmagic> but non-sarcastically
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12:56 < BitcoinErrorLog> lol
12:57 < BitcoinErrorLog> any news about transcripts being released? is there anything people would actually find interesting aside from novelty?
12:57 < BitcoinErrorLog> oh you just said bug bruce, nvm
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13:06 < fluffypony> BitcoinErrorLog: maybe it never happens, in which case the live Reddit thread that Shawn and I did is a reasonable overview
13:08 < BitcoinErrorLog> did bruce complain about that too?
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13:08 < BitcoinErrorLog> between the reddit, twitter, and all the first-hand accounts heard over the weekend, it was almost .... like i was there
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13:13 < fluffypony> no he didn't, but we did tell everyone we were doing it
13:14 < fluffypony> BitcoinErrorLog: you were there in spirit, buddy
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13:42 < JackH> does anyone know of a place that actually has collected all white papers of pre-era Bitcoin? that speak about systems similar to Bitcoin?
13:44 < JackH> because some past ideas were actually quite good, and interesting to read about, like Szabo's bitgold and similarly
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13:47 < fluffypony> I don't know if anyone's made a collection of them - maybe kanzure?
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13:53 < harding> JackH: I think the collection here is pretty good, although it goes beyond crypto into economics and a few other topics: http://nakamotoinstitute.org/literature/
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14:25 < instagibbs> Adam Back's Hashcash website has a few
14:26 < instagibbs> http://www.hashcash.org/papers/
14:26 < instagibbs> of course those are aimed towards PoW like stuff
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14:36 < kanzure> JackH: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/
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15:09 < JackH> thx harding and kanzure
15:14 < JackH> check this out btw
15:14 < JackH> http://arxiv.org/abs/0802.0832
15:15 < JackH> not in any of those 2
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15:17 < JackH> has there even been a whitepaper for mojo nation?
15:18 < JackH> the closest I come to it is zookos paper on distributed systems
15:18 < fluffypony> ask bramc when he's next around
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15:19 < JackH> he participated in mojo?
15:23 < fluffypony> uh
15:23 < fluffypony> he was lead dev...
15:25 < JackH> wasnt that Jim?
15:28 < fluffypony> no, Jim was more like the inventor and architect
15:28 < JackH> ah, hmm
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15:31 < fluffypony> you have to remember that this was like dotcom-bubble era, so it was a company, not an open-source project
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15:32 < fluffypony> and Jim and Doug Barnes conceived the idea and went and got funding
15:32 < fluffypony> so Bram and The Zook were "just" employees, really
15:33 < JackH> yeah, good point, I guess it all really worked differently back then in terms of launching software
15:33 < fluffypony> (it's a little more nuanced than that, but that's the way it appeared to me, bearing in mind I was a much younger pony then)
15:33 < JackH> I remember launching a huge gaming forum back in 2002, all centralized, no repo's for anything
15:35 < fluffypony> I'm glad we've learnt our lessons with that
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17:04 < rgrant> kanzure: (and other Satoshi Roundtable participants) can you from memory/grep recall anyone asking for specific technical reasons why the recent HK proposal couldn't work for other participants in the room at the Satoshi Roundtable?
17:05 < kanzure> this is not a wizardly topic
17:05 < rgrant> so be it.  then mention your notes here no more.
17:06 < kanzure> hmm
17:06 < kanzure> well anyway, no specific technical reasons other than things like "needs to be a compromise where they feel like they are doing something truly bad" and "timeliness"
17:06 < rgrant> (is there a better place to ask?)
17:10 < rgrant> clarificaiton: was asking about coverage and reasons, not for named participants.
17:10 < rgrant> anyway.
17:11 < fluffypony> coverage and reasons?
17:11 < fluffypony> rgrant: pm me and we can chat about it
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--- Log closed Tue Mar 01 00:00:47 2016