--- Log opened Mon Mar 07 00:00:13 2016
--- Day changed Mon Mar 07 2016
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15:14 < Psztorc> Can someone recommend a blockexplorer which shows the actual data that has been inserted into coinbase txin? They all seem to just retun the square-?s.
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15:18 < belcher> Psztorc idk but theres a big list of them here https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Ku9Nlo_TwhE_gLX3oDmRURbvc_iB_7j90MyfCG69zLw/edit#gid=0
15:18 < Psztorc> Ok, thanks, I'll keep trying them.
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15:20 < belcher> and we've written down every one we could find here too https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket/issues/64
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15:37 < Psztorc> I think I just have to use the API to get the JSON...I did not find a blockexplorer which does this. : (
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15:41 < fluffypony> to get the raw json?
15:41 < fluffypony> I mean the json representation of the raw tx
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15:42 < Psztorc> Well, so far I'm just shooting for "more specific than 'square square square'".
15:44 < fluffypony> Psztorc: what about http://bitcoinstrings.com ?
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15:48 < Psztorc> fluffypony: that looked promising, but it appears to only go up to block 465.
15:48 < fluffypony> Anduck: ^^
15:49 < Psztorc> I'm just trying to make one helpful merged-mining graphic...it is taking forever.
15:49 < Anduck> Psztorc: it's the blockfiles, not block#'s
15:50 < Psztorc> Anduck: haha, ok, it isn't (directly) indexed by block at all?
15:50 < Psztorc> Do I just find the right blockfile and sort of scroll to where I think it should be?
15:50 < Anduck> yup
15:51 < Anduck> there's no info about block#'s. i guess there are some sites which do the same but have indexed it better
15:52 < gmaxwell> Psztorc: the "square ?s" is how your browser is rendering arbritary unescaped binary data.
15:53 < gmaxwell> for merge mining, thats pretty much all there is. A hash.
15:53 < Psztorc> I don't understand why I don't just see a hex hash, like I do in every other Bitcoin place.
15:54 < gmaxwell> because they're not decoding the data as hex.
15:55 < gmaxwell> presumably because many miners put strings with their claimed identity in blocks, and if that was displayed as hex it would be unreadable.
15:55 < gmaxwell> (It's likely that any site doing the box? is XSS vulnerable too)
15:56 < Psztorc> Hmmm...I am just trying to demonstrate that merged-mining does what it says it does, by pointing to the data in a coinbase txin.
15:57 < Psztorc> I thought it would be most persuasive if it was just a screenshot of something (two somethings) that the audience could just visit.
15:57 < Psztorc> Like this: http://explorer.namecoin.info/blocks/block_19200.txt
15:57 < Psztorc> Maybe. But it seems that that won't work.
15:58 < belcher> on a similar vein, is there any place to quickly get a raw block header? i was explaining PoW to someone the other day, it wouldve been nice to hash a real header and show difficult it was to generate, yet how anyone can verify it
15:59 < gmaxwell> belcher: getblock in the bitcoin core RPC and just take the first 80 bytes out of it.
15:59 < phantomcircuit> Psztorc, that's not going to work, merged mining data is generally a hash of some other info
15:59 < belcher> no easier place? that requires having a full node accessible
15:59 < phantomcircuit> and mostly the block explorer thingies dont display it as hex
16:00 < gmaxwell> belcher: you can request it over p2p with the getheaders call, but thats not exactly easy.
16:00 < gmaxwell> you don't have abcore on your phone? :)
16:01 < Psztorc> phantomcircuit: damn.
16:01 < Psztorc> I feel that this is harder than it needs to be. Perhaps, if people liked namecoin more, the namecoin block explorer would have some conceptual info.
16:02 < Psztorc> About its Bitcoin parent. Oh well.
16:02 < gmaxwell> a namecoin block explorer could show this in more detail... but usually block explorers work very hard to hide technical details.
16:02 < gmaxwell> Psztorc: most namecoin blocks are not parented by an actual bitcoin block.
16:02 < gmaxwell> Some are.
16:02 < moa> abcore sounds like an infomercial product to get some ripped 6-packs going ... AbCore Pro is the paid version?
16:03 < gmaxwell> hah
16:03 < gmaxwell> moa: it's bitcoin core for android. :)
16:04 < Psztorc> Is it always the case that a namecoin block which does not have leading 0's always has a Bitcoin parent?
16:06 < phantomcircuit> Psztorc, namecoin simply has a separate difficulty from bitcoin
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16:07 < phantomcircuit> Psztorc, interestingly namecoin can reorg without bitcoin reorg-ing
16:08 < mrkent_> gmaxwell: best block explorer i've seen so far: http://www.yogh.io/
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16:09 < Psztorc> ^^ Now we're talkin'.
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16:09 < gmaxwell> Psztorc: the two systems are independant-- e.g. namecoin never connects to the bitcoin network. Namecoin's rules are such that bitcoin 'lottery tickets' are also candidates for namecoin. Since they both happen to use the same metric for goodness (though thats not techincally required), a very good block will be an eligible solution for both chains-- but it might be orhpaned in one or the other ch
16:09 < gmaxwell> ain, independantly.  You could also have name coin blocks that wouldn't be valid bitcoin solutions (because namecoin has a lower difficulty); or in theory the other way around (though I don't think bitcoin's difficulty has ever been higher, though they've been close enough that around a retarget it might have happened)
16:10 < Psztorc> gmaxwell: my understanding was that Bitcoin need to have something inserted into a Bitcoin coinbase txin
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16:10 < Psztorc> And that this thing uniquely identified a namecoin block.
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16:10 < Psztorc> And so they were thus not-independent.
16:12 < gmaxwell> Psztorc: there doesn't need to be any bitcoin at all for namecoin to work-- e.g. bitcoin could be wiped off the face of the earth, the bitcoin network could completely jam up, all nodes could crash, whatever.. namecoin would keep working. Thats pretty independant.
16:13 < moa> I never understood why the namecoin blockchain never gained more interest as a blockchain DB storage vehicle
16:13 < gmaxwell> An analogy is something like, say there is a lottery where you write your chosen number on a card then submit it to be checked if there is a winner.  Then someone comes along and says if you write in blue ink in the bottom right corner another number, then they'll also enter you in their seperate orthorgonal lottery if you submit a copy of your card to them too.
16:14 < Psztorc> gmaxwell: Don't take that as "mean". I'm only interested in the case where [1] there are no 'namecoin only' miners and [2] bitcoin is not wiped off the face of the earth.
16:14 < Psztorc> gmaxwell: Where do I find the blue ink!
16:14 < Psztorc> All I want is the blue ink so that I can put it in a screenshot.
16:15 < gmaxwell> so when people attmept to mine namecoin they do proof of work with an 'extended header'which is structured like a valid bitcoin block, which has the hash of their namecoin block in it.  Which is that [?] stuff you were seeing.  lemme go find an example.
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16:15 < gmaxwell> wow bc.i is super slow
16:16 < Psztorc> My conjecture is that http://explorer.namecoin.info/blocks/block_19200.txt and http://www.yogh.io/#block:height:140386 should contain something equal to something.
16:17 < Psztorc> But I just guessed based on the timestamp.
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16:18 < fluffypony> Psztorc: there's also #namecoin-dev for Namecoin-specific stuff
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16:18 < fluffypony> hl and Jeremy_Rand were talking a couple of hours ago, so they may still be around
16:18 < gmaxwell> without hashing it yourself it will be pretty hard to be sure they match.
16:19 < Psztorc> It really isn't namecoin specific...just merge-mined specific.
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16:25 < gmaxwell> Psztorc: https://blockchain.info/tx/9da90c1412b99ab0cd7fdca5a1e77ab304626cc36458492270d29deb312b6a24  you can easily see the commitment there, but there is no straight forward way I know of to see what (if any) of the namecoin blocks that cooresponds to; short of extracting and hashing the namecoin data to look for a match.
16:27 < Psztorc> Hmm...no straightforward way... darn.
16:27 < Psztorc> Ok thanks, I'll see if I can just guess it.
16:27 < gmaxwell> because the work is generated at different times you shouldn't expect the timestamps to match exactly either.
16:28 < gmaxwell> I suppose for demonstration purposes it probably doesn't matter if you get it wrong; the point is the same.
16:28 < gmaxwell> if you ask in #namecoin-dev someone there might have a copy of namecoin running with enough instrumention to make it easier to tell.
16:29 < gmaxwell> as the namecoin daemon does have enough information to tell you the bitcoin hash.
16:30 < gmaxwell> (or rather, tell you what the bitcoin hash would be if the namecoin solution was also a bitcoin solution)
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17:19 < Psztorc> In case anyone is interested, turns out nmc-19200 was *not* a "both block" ( https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Merged_mining_specification#Example ).  However, nmc-65795 seemingly was https://namecoin.webbtc.com/block/c72836f9e996b9ee788826a4fa70c112252ed03ea8e5db1cd091533366b02d1f.json you can see the black hex of btc-401615 http://www.yogh.io/#block:height:401615
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18:35 < Jeremy_Rand_2> Psztorc: Hi, Namecoin developer here.  Sorry, had stepped out for a few hours.  Looks like you got an answer on #namecoin-dev ?
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18:37 < Psztorc> Jeremy_Rand_2: Yep, I think I figured it out, thanks.
18:39 < Jeremy_Rand_2> Psztorc: great, glad you figured it out
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