--- Log opened Mon Mar 28 00:00:12 2016
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00:35  * Luke-Jr ponders if anyone would object to using this channel for discussing concrete hardfork ideas?
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00:41 < fluffypony> Luke-Jr: I would think that falls into "theoretical ideas", on some level
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02:30 < wumpus> as long as it's not about development side of bit but the theoretical side that's exactly what this chanenl is for
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04:56 < bsm1175321> Luke-Jr: I welcome it
04:58 < bsm1175321> Ah yes, I do think Braids and Honey Badger is probably the most apt comparision...forgot about that one.
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05:09 < btc> http://i.piccy.info/i9/c7feca678551893bce9f8a675be88647/1458235015/63770/1015338/pc.jpg               17hKzAXSi6uqGb9hVQFARgrt1HEHamAtua     Thanks)
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05:21 < fluffypony> btc: no.
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19:51 < bsm1175321> It says "coming soon" but looks like there is code in the other branches.  ;-) https://github.com/amiller/HoneyBadgerBFT/branches
19:54 < bsm1175321> In my opinion, any leader-based protocol is vulnerable to an attack that consists of (a) finding the leader and (b) DDoSing it off the net.  Bitcoin's ex-post-facto block publication is a serious advantage here, because no one knows where the next block will come from.  So the equivalent attack is to DDoS *all* miners off the net.  I think this is a serious advantage and makes Bitcoin and similar protocols better 
19:55 < bsm1175321> This attack would keep a PAXOS-derived network stuck in an expensive leader election process.
19:56 < Taek> that was one of the primary complaints of bitcoin-ng - when you have a known leader, there is a larger attack surface
19:56 < bsm1175321> I've made that complaint against Bitcoin-NG too.  The authors didn't really offer a satisfactory response (to me).  It can be slightly mitigated, but Bitcoin wins on this point.
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20:10 < gwillen> bsm1175321: a possible variation on Bitcoin-NG uses a simple consensus process among the last N leaders or something similar, which could help with the DoS issue if the consensus can proceed with some quorum of less than all of them.
20:11 < bsm1175321> gwillen: by the theorems of byzantine protocols, said quorum is 2/3 of the last N leaders.
20:11 < gwillen> (also, in either model there's not necessarily any need for the leader(s) IP(s) to be public. And once you have multiple leaders this doesn't seem any easier to attack than DDoSing the major mining pools right now.)
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20:11 < gwillen> bsm1175321: *nods*
20:11 < bsm1175321> I'm not saying the IP is public, just that it's discoverable.
20:12 < bsm1175321> The longer the leader holds the position, the more likely I'll be able to figure out his IP.
20:12 < gwillen> sure. Not necessarily more discoverable than major mining pool IPs right now though.
20:12 < bsm1175321> Bitcoin's mining centralization problem not withstanding..
20:12 < gwillen> and there are only a few of those to DoS, even though that's not the ideal situation but it's the actual one.
20:12 < gwillen> Right.
20:13 < bsm1175321> One must separately attack mining centralization, it's orthogonal to the presence/absence of a leader.
20:13 < gwillen> (My backstory here is that I came up with something that had a passing resemblance to bitcoin-NG a few years ago, never noticed or solved the problem they use poison transactions for, which is a critical piece, and worked with them a bit after the Montreal conference.)
20:14 < bsm1175321> I'm planning on getting them in the room in May to give a seminar about Bitcoin-NG...
20:14  * gwillen nods
20:14 < gwillen> I'm still looking forward to reading about your thing, it sounded like it did Bitcoin NG one better
20:14 < bsm1175321> I also worry that even if Bitcoin-NG was absolutely the best possible idea, I don't see the academic types shepherding their idea through the process to get it integrated.
20:15 < bsm1175321> Mine is leaderless, and closer "in spirit" to bitcoin, while achieving the fastest possible network given the network topology and latencies.
20:15 < Taek> I think that if it was a good idea, enough would trickle down that someone else would get it through the integration process. Certainly would take a while
20:15 < Taek> but I also don't feel like the poison transactions are a strong construction, and in general ng just seems to have weaknesses
20:18 < bsm1175321> I'm going to have a fight with timing assumptions though.  :-/  Unlike PAXOS-derived protocols, time measurement is necessary in bitcoin-derived approaches.
20:20 < gwillen> Taek: you can fix the poison transaction stuff by a bit more brute force if you want, adding opcodes and such, I think it's still softforkable
20:20 < bsm1175321> I was just thinking about throwing out beads who are younger than a child or older than a parent, which would force the network to converge on timing measurements, but it also introduces an attack.
20:20 < gwillen> Taek: or at least, at one point I tried to convince someone it was
20:21 < gwillen> so if the weakness is in the ability to detect and punish leaders who confirm conflicting transactions, I think that can be fixed (but if the problem is in the economic incentives, even given enforcement, that I'm fuzzier on)
20:22 < gwillen> bsm1175321: time is hard. :-(
20:25 < bsm1175321> Indeed.  I haven't had to worry about it so far, but I need an algorithm to throw out delayed beads.  Because analyzing a graph is hard, there's an attack in creating a very delayed bead, and forcing nodes to analyze a large subset of the braid to figure out which one to throw out.
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20:26 < gwillen> bsm1175321: interesting. Is this something you can ameliorate by requiring bead-creators to pre-do some of the analysis that would be required, and submit it with the bead?
20:26 < gwillen> I say this knowing zip and zilch about your protocol.
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20:27 < bsm1175321> No...bead creation is intentionally ignorant of simultaneous things on the other side of the planet (which is one thing that lets it go really fast), so it's impossible to do such an analysis.
20:28 < bsm1175321> Maybe I can attack this with a recursive analysis...
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20:30 < bsm1175321> Hmmm I think that will work.  More coding...
20:32 < bsm1175321> The whole problem is that of finding cohorts (analog of blocks).  When a braid branches, I can follow each child and make sub-cohorts out of them.  By a recursive analysis I can find beads which have low work compared to the rest of their (sub-) cohort, and throw them out deterministically with a logarithmic algorithm...
20:33 < bsm1175321> Seems like it should make determining a cohort N log N.  I'll take it...
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